Effective archery requirements

[Loriac]

Purple.

Thank you for the detailed explanations, I'll go through those and adjust any misperceptions I may have had re: the difference between the two builds.

Just a few thoughts though:

I don't like counting the +2str from yugo pot, as I think the -4Wil penalty is too much to pay, but ymmv. Where is the +4 alchemical coming from a sustained basis? The main sources I can think of would be tensers, which is a pain to scroll every 1.5mins (but certainly possible), or else the fabricator's bracers (which isn't constant). I'm similarly not convinced that madstone should be counted as sustained, and I also find it difficult to fit in 2 str on FotW or LD (I generally find that I spend all points on abilities in those trees).

The +8 from psionic surge doesn't stack with titan's grip, but conversely titan's grip is 3 mins between shrines and fiddly to use (swapping out gear for 1 min buffs is easy to forget). Thats why I count it in the fighter's sustained str but not the monk/ranger.

On the +8 enh, your maths looks like the 32 includes this already.

To viz:

3.5[2d6]+7
=3.5x7(mean damage from 2d6)+7 = 24.5+7 = 31.5

The upgrade from +7 to +8 changes the above to 3.5[2d6]+8, or 32.5

If its working differently, so that the +8 is stacking on top of the +7, then its definitely a bug.


RE: use of stances - my point was that the 12F/6M has more flexibility in choice of stance than the 12M/6R. In order to keep damage competitive between the two, the 12M is forced into using earth stance. If the 12F goes to earth stance, it ends up with similar hp (possibly slightly higher due to fighter levels) and similar PRR, and mean damage per shot is about the same across both builds (with the 12M getting higher crits on natural 19-20 and the 12F getting slightly higher damage on natural 2-18). However, the 12F/6M isn't getting any of its damage in this case from the earth stance, so its choice of stance (for damage calculation) is more or less irrelevant.

If the 12F/6M switches to ocean, it loses 1 damage per shot due to the -2Str malus, but conversely gains a few % dps in 10k mode. At base damage >50 (which based on both our numbers is certainly a given), the 12F/6M actually gains dps by going into water stance. This is the basis for my statement that it has slightly higher dps than the 12M/6R. If the 12M/6R switches stance, it loses 8-10 damage per shot per your numbers, which is partially offset by gaining 8% or so from the additional wisdom; netting the two, it loses about 4-5 damage per shot.


Ultimately, I think the two builds end up at similar damage output, with the 12F/6M looking like it overtakes the other (on paper at least) by a very small margin. Its possible that a fully max'd out build, with all relevant PLs and completionist (like your Sithali build) is level with the 12F/6M when all its buffs are up, but for most players who don't have completionist or the full set of ranger and monk PLs, the 12F/6M will almost certainly be ahead (but again, by a trivial amount). Its basically a question of whether the fighter's +7 per shot from weapon spec and kensai enhancments, and its +5 per shot from greater sustainable strength (+2 fighter, +8 psionic) outweighs the 12M/6R's +10% base damage per shot + 3 per shot from ram's might. If you remove the +8 psionic by giving the 12M/6R access to unlimited use of titan's grip gloves (say 3 or 4 pairs) then I accept that the 12M/6R nudges ahead, but I also think this is an unrealistic assumption.

Having said all that, I can certainly see the other benefits of 12M/6R - I imagine it may be a much more 'fun' build due to faster run speed and various cool monk features that the 12F/6M misses out on.


Edit:

[12F/6M/2Ranger]
This only works w/sorc PL; otherwise you need a caster splash instead of rgr 2.

You're absolutely right, I often overlook this because I ran a lot of my characters as sorcs or wizards in the past, so most of my TRs do have a sorc PL.

[Symerith]

Alchem is by using Tenser's scrolls that last if I remember right 1min6 secs. Entirely sustainable.

And yeah.. I included yugos in the stats but it's more about show off than anything else :P For the most part, I never use them.

Well I certainly agree with what you say: the kensai route w/ 12 F is a small gain in "base DPS" and maybe a little more flexible, but the 12M benefits most from PLs and gear. Why? Because it's pretty **** tough to get the UMD to work unless you have arti PL or completionist feat (I was able to reach 39-41 depending on if GS item or not).
The other reason is that the Sithali is a "crit-based" build and any increase to base damage is more DPS.

With that said, the burst emperor at this time is neither of these builds :P But smthg like an 18 barbarian/1ranger/1wiz.
Because with "guaranteed" crits during your manyshot, the only DPS gain you can get is by raising your base arrow damage or crit multiplier. But due to lack of saves and difficulty to make such a toon viable for more than 20 seconds, I believe the best is still to go for more "tradionnal" builds. One more thing is you can't fit all the feats w/ the 12 F (at least not OC). 8 fighter/6ranger/6monk though is another decent option, and that one you end up with 2 more feats. Did the breakdown at some point so here it is.

8fighter/6ranger/6monk

• +3 dmge
• +2 crit dmge
• Haste Boost III (frees up 1 twist)
• 3 feat (2 really since you have to spend 1 feat on the kensai prereq anyway)
• +1 str

12monk/6ranger/2fighter

• +1 crit multiplier
• +1 wisdom
• +2d6 SA
• Improved Evasion
• Water Strider, speed, leap of faith

I'm pretty sure the enhancement revamp (if it ever comes) will bring a lot of change, especially for AAs. Most likely all splits will be changed, probably in favor or fighter/ranger AAs when 10kstars becomes a feat.

[maddmatt70]

I personally like the haste/damage boosts quite a bit for 12 fighter 6 monk. It is very burstyish. 12 monk is more about the surviveability and has more damage consistancy i.e. after 10 minutes+ my 12 fighter 7 monk 1 artificer runs out of bursts. The 12 monk has improved evasion, a little higher saves, abundant step, as well,etc. I went with 12 fighter myself, but I am looking forward to exploring the options when the enhancement pass comes out. I bet deepwood sniper could be awesome and 20 ranger or some sort of ranger/rogue could be great - we will see.

[Loriac]

One more thing is you can't fit all the feats w/ the 12 F (at least not OC).

Assuming HElf (for AA), a 12F/6M/2Ranger build has 7 base + 2 epic + 7 fighter + 3 monk feats = 19 feats


OC line: PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, IC:Blunt, OC (5 feats)
TWF line: ITWF, GTWF (2 feats)
Misc: Toughness, Stunning fist (2 feats)
Ranged: Point Blank shot, WF: Ranged, Manyshot, Zen Archery, Precise Shot, IPS, IC: Ranged, Weapon specialisation: Ranged, Greater Weapon spec: Ranged (9 feats)
AA Qualifying: PL: Sorc

Total: 19 feats

I think it is just possible to create the 12F/6M/2R HElf AA KensaiII within the feat budget you have and still get OC, unless I've messed up the feats above somewhere.

[maddmatt70]

Assuming HElf (for AA), a 12F/6M/2Ranger build has 7 base + 2 epic + 7 fighter + 3 monk feats = 19 feats


OC line: PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, IC:Blunt, OC (5 feats)
TWF line: ITWF, GTWF (2 feats)
Misc: Toughness, Stunning fist (2 feats)
Ranged: Point Blank shot, WF: Ranged, Manyshot, Zen Archery, Precise Shot, IPS, IC: Ranged, Weapon specialisation: Ranged, Greater Weapon spec: Ranged (9 feats)
AA Qualifying: PL: Sorc

Total: 19 feats

I think it is just possible to create the 12F/6M/2R HElf AA KensaiII within the feat budget you have and still get OC, unless I've messed up the feats above somewhere.

Why do you folks take the twf line. I only melee about 45 seconds or so a quest to get my ki up when I play my zen archer. I think you can get more from precision and critical accuracy. Precision is actually a decent archer feat.

[Symerith]

Why do you folks take the twf line. I only melee about 45 seconds or so a quest to get my ki up when I play my zen archer. I think you can get more from precision and critical accuracy. Precision is actually a decent archer feat.

Precision is a must have especially for last couple of releases.... FOT boss being undead and FotW being a crit-focused destiny.

Critical accuracy I don't find so smexy, especially on if you are going for OC.. lack of feats.

[maddmatt70]

Precision is a must have especially for last couple of releases.... FOT boss being undead and FotW being a crit-focused destiny.

Critical accuracy I don't find so smexy, especially on if you are going for OC.. lack of feats.

I do not think there is much value in improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, stunning fist, icrit bludgeon. I would quite frankly dump all of those and go with other feats because what I see and the way I play for that matter is the archers ranging 95%+ of the time. Melee feats= bah.
Precision
Critical Accuracy
Quick Draw
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Etc.

[Symerith]

I do not think there is much value in improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, stunning fist, icrit bludgeon. I would quite frankly dump all of those and go with other feats because what I see and the way I play for that matter is the archers ranging 95%+ of the time. Melee feats= bah.
Precision
Critical Accuracy
Quick Draw
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Etc.

Oh yeah I agree, but 12 monk/6ranger/2 fighter is pretty **** limited if he's taking OC.

[Loriac]

I'm not wedded to that feat list at all, I just wanted to show that its possible to get all the needed feats on a 12F/6M base.

I agree about precision being much more useful, and would agree that the twf line is the least useful on a pure bow user. I'm not sure if the kensai ki bonuses work with archery, but if they do that would be even less reason to invest in those feats.

I think stunning fist is useful if you can hit the necessary target DCs, but if you can't then its best to swap it out - its essentially an all or nothing type of feat, but I would argue an effective stunning fist makes melee for the monkcher much safer than it would otherwise be.

Either way, you have 2-4 feats on the 12F/6M variant that can be changed (GTWF, ITWF, Stunning fist, IC:Blunt) without hurting the build's primary function.

[emptysands]

[QU

8fighter/6ranger/6monk

• +3 dmge
• +2 crit dmge
• Haste Boost III (frees up 1 twist)
• 3 feat (2 really since you have to spend 1 feat on the kensai prereq anyway)
• +1 str

6 Artificer/Battle Engineer gives you almost as much: +2 crit dmg, +2 stacking main hand weapon enhancement, 1 bonus feat. Lose +2 STR, 1 feat (compared to above)

Wow had a version of this build, although I'd probably got 8 ranger/6/6 now in order to get empowered healing. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4647893

Why do you folks take the twf line. I only melee about 45 seconds or so a quest to get my ki up when I play my zen archer. I think you can get more from precision and critical accuracy. Precision is actually a decent archer feat.

I semi-agree, generally in the non-boost periods you are repositioning anyway. Or throwing a heal scroll on yourself.

Precision is pretty important for fury crits against bosses.

Oh yeah I agree, but 12 monk/6ranger/2 fighter is pretty **** limited if he's taking OC.

I'm considering trying the following switch on my 12M/6R/2A: Stunning Fist, GTWF, IMA, Combat Archery for PA, Cleave, GC, OC.

With base: PBS, Toughness, Zen Archery, Precision, Dodge, WF: Ranged, IC: Ranged, IPS.

I doubt they will ever fix CA and IMA for ranged.

[Mavnas]

So just for ranged stuff you need:

Passives (6 + 1 epic):
Bow Strength
PBS
Combat Archery (epic)
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Zen Archery
Improved Critical

Actives (3)
Many Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Precision?

Pre-reqs (0-1?)
WF: Ranged if you don't get Bow Strength from Ranger

Am I missing anything?

That's 9-10 regular feats and 1 epic.

Being a monk 6 gives 3 feats (one of which should be Toughness). You get 7 feats normally. So if you have 0 ranger levels you need at least one bonus feat from elsewhere. Either monk spec requires an additional feat.

[Loriac]

So just for ranged stuff you need:

Passives (6 + 1 epic):
Bow Strength
PBS
Combat Archery (epic)
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Zen Archery
Improved Critical

Actives (3)
Many Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Precision?

Pre-reqs (0-1?)
WF: Ranged if you don't get Bow Strength from Ranger

Am I missing anything?

That's 9-10 regular feats and 1 epic.

Being a monk 6 gives 3 feats (one of which should be Toughness). You get 7 feats normally. So if you have 0 ranger levels you need at least one bonus feat from elsewhere. Either monk spec requires an additional feat.

You get 7 heroic level feats, 2 epic level feats, and 3 monk feats if taking 6 monk.

Thats 12 feats in total, so you can cover all the ones you listed, including toughness.

[Mavnas]

Yeah, but either monk PrC costs a feat too

Though that does make possible Mnk12/Art4/Something4 or Mnk12/Art6/Something2. Allowing for both trapping and something totally different. (Pal for saves?)

[Entelech]

On the 12 Monk-cher variants, the main reason for the last 6 Monk levels is to get the third-tier Ocean stance that gives you passive Chi regen. Without that, using Ten Thousand Stars as fast as it cools down is highly problematic.

That said, if you get to Epic Destinies, the Tier 1 Grandmaster of Flowers ability Enlightenment also gives you a point of passive Chi regen if you get all 3 ranks, so a Tier 1 Twist slot will allow you to dump those last 6 levels of Monk for something else...at least, once you get to 20.


Also, once you've taken Toughness and Zen Archery as your Monk bonus feats at Monk 1 and Monk 2, there's really not much to do with the bonus feat at Monk 6. So you may as well go ahead and qualify for a monk PrE. The Ninja Spy PrE is the choice I prefer, since it gives sneak attack and passive Chi regen while stealthed. The Light Monk variant doesn't do much unless you're using handwraps in the brief windows between Ten Thousand Stars and Manyshot.


In theory, then, a 2 Ranger / 6 Monk / 12 (Almost Anything) should be doable, especially if the (Almost Anything) gives useful bonus feats, self-healing, or good buffs.

My current project is a 2 Ranger / 6 Monk / 12 Favored Soul.

[emptysands]

Yeah, but either monk PrC costs a feat too

Though that does make possible Mnk12/Art4/Something4 or Mnk12/Art6/Something2. Allowing for both trapping and something totally different. (Pal for saves?)

Combat Archery doesnt work at the moment, switch that for Dodge/Ninja.

How about 12 Monk/4 Ranger/4 Paladin:

7 + 2 + 3monk = 12 epics

Ranger (Free): Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, TWF, Precise Shot
Ranged (5): PBS, IC: Ranged, Weapon Focus: Ranged (for AA), IPS, Manyshot
Monk (3): Precision, Dodge (for Ninja), Zen Archery
Other/Meta(4): Toughness, Empower Healing, Quicken, Mental Toughness (for AA)

4 Arty/4 Paladin lose 3 Ranged feats for one bonus feat. Probably wont work.

[WruntJunior]

On the 12 Monk-cher variants, the main reason for the last 6 Monk levels is to get the third-tier Ocean stance that gives you passive Chi regen. Without that, using Ten Thousand Stars as fast as it cools down is highly problematic.

That said, if you get to Epic Destinies, the Tier 1 Grandmaster of Flowers ability Enlightenment also gives you a point of passive Chi regen if you get all 3 ranks, so a Tier 1 Twist slot will allow you to dump those last 6 levels of Monk for something else...at least, once you get to 20.

The main reason to go 7-12 monk is an extra crit multiplier on 19s and 20s. It also gives you abundant step, which is no small gain.

Ocean Stance is very meh imo - using it just for ki gen isn't worth it.

[Dieterstrife]

Like has been stated, there are WAY more than enough feats on the 12 fighter version.

Also looking at that list, you could swap those twf feats and stunning fists for PL: Paladin, Precision and hell let's add Power critical for another 2 damage before mods.

I'd really like to see a comparison between the 2, which I will probably do on my own happy free time.

Also thinking twists, Sym your sithali build twisted Haste boost which the fighter doesn't obviously need, giving it a slight edge in fury. Thinking Critical Accuracy twist (which I think was mentioned, and you mentioned in your thread you wish you could have taken it)

[Entelech]

The main reason to go 7-12 monk is an extra crit multiplier on 19s and 20s. It also gives you abundant step, which is no small gain.

Ocean Stance is very meh imo - using it just for ki gen isn't worth it.

Interesting...

I had not considered the extra crit multiplier from Greater Mountain Stance. The defensive abilities it grants are obviously quite nice...

But, having just got my TR'ed Ranger 2 / Monk 6 / Favored Soul 12 to level 21, I can say with some assurance that some source of passive Ki regeneration is a strong requirement for a monkcher. Using a bow does not count as an attack for normal Ki gain. And if you cannot get back 20 points of Ki every 60 seconds, you cannot sustain Ten Thousand Stars and may as well not be a monkcher at all.

Now, obviously, you can switch to handwraps or whatever during your downtime, but running up and meleeing something just to recharge enough ki to run away and shoot it again, seems at least as "meh" as Ocean Stance to me. Especially since Abundant Step costs Ki and Greater Mountain Stance raises melee threat.

That said, the Enlightenment ED ability provides a workaround for the 20-somethings, so it's only the 14-19 crowd that's typically stuck without Ki if they do not go with the 12 Monk variant and Ocean stance.

And while Abundant Step is, granted, a very nice ability, multiclassing is all about tradeoffs. I admit that the Monk 12 variants are the classic route, and quite popular, but there is an array of additional possibilities for the adventurous, with a Ranger 2 / Monk 6 prefix.