Pyrene, the Endgame Paladin

[Loriac]

All I'm seeing from the Pyrene, the Juggernaut, the Beast and all other builds like them:

Usually just giving yourself between 2 and 4 ranger levels, then either 2 monk or 2 fighter is enough to fit in Manyshot and Overwhelming Critical into a single build.

Does this make them the best? Probably not, but it does make efficient builds capable of a lot of things. What it does give though is a good base setup: You can literally make one of these builds with any class you want, and it will accomplish the same thing more or less. Yes, a barb version is not gonna have anywhere near the same self healing (or evasion, since you would have to take fighter) nor is a bard version going to have the dps output of these ideas.

You've not really posted a build so much as you've posted a feat list that can be done with any and all classes. It's quite nice, actually.

Soon as I get the money I'm lring my rogue into this, just as proof. Difference: I don't much care for overwhelming critical, but I do care for stunning fists. Cons compared to all of these builds: I'm gonna be SOL on HP. 600 in dread most likely, but it will still be a fun toy to try. I'm also going to have a LOT lower str score, but I'm going to have a more reliable form of CC (like it's really impossible to hit a 65dc on stunning fists, even for a first lifer) Do I solo a lot? No, I'm to sociable for that nonsense. I like having someone to talk to. Will I be useful in a quest? Don't know, haven't gotten around to testing the build out and getting it geared.

Will it matter? It's an alt, and I like her to have a weird funky build. Only character I haven't deleted and remade at least once, just capped and tred her.

I do appreciate the feat list though. Makes it easier to deal with a feat starved class.

The core concept is really 2 monk / 1 ranger; additional ranger levels are nice where they can be worked in, as they effectively give additional feats at at least the same rate as fighter levels (i.e. the ranger bonus feats at levels 2 and 4 are ones you'd want to pick up to boost ranged combat anyway).

You can bolt this onto things like 17 cleric, 17 FVS, 14 or 15Pal, and probably even 17 or 14-15 Druid would work.

The pyrene build presented in this thread is really just a particular instance of the 2monk/1ranger concept, and in all honesty the credit for this component probably belongs to Haek who used it for the juggernaut build (from what I understand of that build from the juggernaut thread, it started off as 2monk/2pal but the real stroke of genius was changing the /2pal to /2ranger, as the small ranger splash is much more synergistic with archery).

[Symerith]

Most of you are right. It's not a real "build", it's a concept, meaning you could very well make many variants of a certain concept, as seen with the Juggernaut or the Pyrene.

However, it's not just a feat list.

It's taking the time of thinking about a split, it's the time to write it & lay it down for all to understand, it's hours and hours of TRing into said build, acquiring all gear relevant to it, capping at 25, spending money on all the needed augments and in the end, providing proof and evidence of the build's power.

Don't fool yourselves, the last part takes a lot of time - getting the right situation, filming it, editing it and uploading the video takes time.

Eventually, you end up with the "perfect" set up - Haek didn't come up with the Juggernaut's Ranger/Monk splash at first, it took him time to test different ideas and eventually he's figured out the perfect split, gear layout and feats.
I may not have spent as much time working on the Pyrene, but I changed ideas 3 times before ending up with my current set up.

The idea of build died with Epic Destinies. Epic Destinies are the "top layer" of a character, they provide so much power that the idea is just to figure out the "underneath" layers to adapt for endgame content.
Today's endgame is about giving importance to defenses and self healing.
That's where the Pyrene and the Juggernaut win - LD or Fury provide the orientation of the build (LD - Tactics/Sustained DPS // Fury - Burst DPS), the 1-20 split provides the "platform" as I like to call it. And after having tested different platforms, my belief is that the Pyrene is the best at this moment.
This will (and I hope so) change with the enh. pass.

As Loriac mentionned, this concept works with many classes and Haek was one of those that had the idea.
You also know that there are only 3 extremely efficient "concepts" at this time: AAs, Shiradi casters & Hybrids (Jug, Pyrene belong to this category). Therefore, to differentiate the platforms belonging to the Hybrid category, we still use the term of "build" hence the Pyrene.
I could simply have posted a video of it, but most people finding the platform interesting wouldn't understand the "reasoning" behind it, hence me posting the build, and the discussion that resulted from it (including the different changes and "why").

Some ppl won't give a ****, some will and they will appreciate the time & effort spent to provide them with cool ideas.

[nni]

Thank you for the replies Symerith.

I definitely appreciate the effort you've put into writing about this build. Many people post builds in these forums. Very few however, actually provide evidence of that build's performance like you and Haek do.

By the way, TRing my barbarian into this tonight or tomorrow . It's been a long time since I've leveled a non-caster. Should be fun.

[voodoogroves]

stuff

Don't sell yourself short. Like I said, one of the beautiful things about a Juggy is that it still does it's nominal job, brings DPS and can self-heal.

Your paladin does the same. It's nominal traditional role is different than an arti and maybe that has less "value" in some situations, but as a paladin you may start off better defensively.

[voodoogroves]

Oh and also w/ the new ways PREs are working, it might be possible to "max" one of the paladin PREs with only 15 levels of Paladin. Could be pretty sick on platforms like yours ... shoe-horning in top-tier defender or hunter and not being as limited by the lower paladin levels.

[emptysands]

Oh and also w/ the new ways PREs are working, it might be possible to "max" one of the paladin PREs with only 15 levels of Paladin. Could be pretty sick on platforms like yours ... shoe-horning in top-tier defender or hunter and not being as limited by the lower paladin levels.

No you still need to be class 18 to get the old "tier 3" core ability and 20 for the capstone.

The split is now 0/3/6/12/18/20 for core abilities.

That said it is not exactly the same.

For example Kensei Keen Edge which gives a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range is tier 5 or level 5 fighter option. Although you really need to be fighter 8 in order to get it as Greater Weapon Focus is a preq for a tier 4 preq.

This was an old Kensei 3 ability, although you have to spend 40+ APs in order to get it.

[~Overvaan]

Amazing build, extremely easy to level and fun.

Things i did different was just feat and leveling order, im trying the 14 version as you are because i got completionist and triplestacked most melle plifes (missing rogue which is in plans).
I went with 2 monk 1 ranger then 6 palies and then finished of ranger. Gives me sp boost for early levels and earlier lays and exalted smite. Usualy when i play ranged option or fully ranged toons to me it seems that before gsteel/sinew/Unwavering Ardency it isnt worth to go fully ranged. Silver bow is nice but without imp precise id rather pick improved criti slashing or feats like that earlier as cleaving with carnifex for example and later sos is more or less 1 shot zerging on this build.
Anyways build is extremely fun to play and not as fuggly as juggs (fuggly as ugly).

Tnx for adding something amazing to our community yet again.

[pappo]

Pyrene, the End Game Paladin: 15 Paladin / 3 Monk / 2 Ranger

How do this toon do DPS in the early levels?

Are you fighting with ranged weapons primarily, or do you just use the ranged weapon to draw aggro and switch to a THF style then ?

I am not a TR so how do you recommend this build for a 32 point?

[~Aris1000]

How do this toon do DPS in the early levels?

Are you fighting with ranged weapons primarily, or do you just use the ranged weapon to draw aggro and switch to a THF style then ?

I am not a TR so how do you recommend this build for a 32 point?

I'm not the OP, but my thoughts:

At early levels, this build should do as well as a paladin. Any character that has Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave usually has very little trouble in the early levels, especially if you pick up some nice weapons (Carnifex). I usually don't bother with ranged much in the early levels. Manyshot gets 3 arrow stacks starting at attack bonus of +11, which is around where it starts being useful.

This build will probably struggle a bit as a 32 point build, just because of MAD (multiple attribute dependency) and the lack of high UMD through the low levels. The original builder has a lot of gear as well as completionist which greatly helps the earlier skill scores. You should still be able to self heal alright using wands and such.

The build really shines with destinies, gear, and TRs, but it should perform reasonably well for heroic levels, particularly if you are not trying to solo elites or anything.

[cru212]

OP and anyone competent:

How would you feel about an evasionless newbie friendly variant (don't have monk):
something like Paladin 15 / Ranger 4 / Artificer 1

Artificer to kick-start UMD / stronger scrolls / Magical Training / Open Lock / dog to pull levers.

Dramatically worse?

[Laeelin]

OP and anyone competent:

How would you feel about an evasionless newbie friendly variant (don't have monk):
something like Paladin 15 / Ranger 4 / Artificer 1

Artificer to kick-start UMD / stronger scrolls / Magical Training / Open Lock / dog to pull levers.

Dramatically worse?

I'm dont qualify as competent.. ...but I'd do a 14 Paladin / 6 Ranger instead. You get all the same feats and trade evasion for first level ranger spells.

1. R: Power Attack, Toughness, (FE: 1), (Bow Strength)
2. R: (Rapid Shot)
3. R: Cleave, (Diehard)
4. R: (Precise Shot)
5. P:
6. P: Great Cleave
7. P:
8. P: (Divine Grace)
9. P: Quicken
10-11. P
12. P: Improved Critical: Slashing
13-14. P
15. P: Point Blank Shot
16-17. P
18. P: Improved Critical: Ranged
19. R: (FE: 2)
20. R: (Manyshot)
21-25. Overwhelming Critical, Completionist/Empower Healing

[~Overvaan]

To the 2 above, losing evasion is a big hit for the build and without monk you lose feats so any version without 2 levels of monk is rather bad or a gimp version.

Look at juggs, you got 2 palie/2monk and 2ranger/2monk version, you dont have ranger/palie version.
And as pyrene is based on juggs and the idea to improve a alrdy amazing build i wouldnt make some abominations like you 2 suggest.
They can work out, but they are mostly limited as having 60+ reflex and no evasion is kinda pointless
on builds like this.

His original version is way superior, 14 palie 4 ranger 2 monk as you get rams archery feats and evasion.

Going wout monk could be replaced by rogue but you would be feat starved.

To the person that asked how this build is while leveling, at early levels you get cleaves and carnifex so you prety much kill stuff very fast, mid levels sos gsteel so thats coverd as well.
Only point i had where i felt weak was 17-20.

You cant die but your damage output is weakish.
Personaly i dont use manyshot til my bab is higher for 3 arrows at least.
And as i said before, silver bow is ok but you should do ranged only to burst bosses and when manyshot is off cd.
Otherwise spam smites and cleaves.

[Laeelin]

To the 2 above, losing evasion is a big hit for the build and without monk you lose feats so any version without 2 levels of monk is rather bad or a gimp version.

Without the gear and past lives he cant make the version with evasion work correctly until he has farmed quite a bit anyway. That is my line of thinking at least.

If i'm wrong please let me know. My Pyrene is 15 Paladin /3 Ranger /2 Monk but is currently only level 19.

[~Overvaan]

Without the gear and past lives he cant make the version with evasion work correctly until he has farmed quite a bit anyway. That is my line of thinking at least.

If i'm wrong please let me know. My Pyrene is 15 Paladin /3 Ranger /2 Monk but is currently only level 19.

You are totaly right, therefore my suggestion is not to build a pyrene at all unless you got past lifes and gear for it as its a advanced build.

Build imo requires plifes, plents of them and it has such wonderful
synergy with palie/monk/ranger/sorc/fsoul/barb/fighter/artie past lifes.
And even more with completionist.

[nni]

I recently capped my Pyrene toon (went 3/2 ranger/monk since it's only a 2nd life). It was my first melee TR and it went super smooth. This toon had a lot of raid gear (adq, VoN, Reaver's). I think for soloing Elites, once you get to the early teens, you probably need the gear to bridge the dps gap. Survivability was obviously fantastic while leveling.Also, Torc is phenomenal on a paladin. I think from 12 to 25 I ran out of spell points maybe 3-5 times.

At first I didn't quite understand your gear choice, with you seemingly not having certain items that are awesome for dps (Dream Visor, Avithoul Ring). However, now that I'm actually trying to gear him at cap, I understand your choices. You need a LOT of slots.

It was great going through the epic levels. While in legendary (or fury for some quests) I had no trouble soloing Eveningstar and Underdark House quests on EE. When not in Fury or Dreadnought, dps is a bit on the low side as expected, but you never die, so can't complain. I would definitely recommend having at least 5 fate points unlocked so you can twist in momentum swing and cocoon if you plan on doing a lot of off-destiny questing.

[korsat]

What do you think about improved power attack? Worth it to be twisted in?

[nni]

What do you think about improved power attack? Worth it to be twisted in?

Well, if I'm doing EEs I always have Brace for Impact and Cocoon twisted. That leaves 1 twist left. If I'm in Legendary I usually take Grim Precision. If in Fury I take Momentum Swing.

[Darkrok]

For a TWF version, we're pretty much locked in to the 14-4-2 correct? That gives Precise Shot as an auto-grant at 4 ranger. We'd still have to drop one other feat. I'd assume from the order taken that would be Empower Healing and then iCrit Ranged gets moved down to level 24? I'd really love to find a survivable build like this that lets me play with some deathnips but I'm not sure whether I feel like you're giving up too much to get TWF on this build.

Here's our feat list on a non-Completionist:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Power Attack
Toughness
Cleave
Great Cleave
Quicken
Manyshot
Improved Critical: Slashing
Improved Critical: Ranged
Overwhelming Critical
Empower Healing

[Cynning]

I'm thinking of tr'ing my pure rogue or my Drow TWF pally to this build. Both are pretty much not played lately. But a question for the OP. I noticed in your pic w/ character sheet that you are not wearing robes but state that robes are the only real option for the build. can you explain please?

[Ilindith]

Très intéressant!

I'll be using this for my next paladin past life.