Pyrene, the Endgame Paladin

[Symerith]

Pyrene, the End Game Paladin: 15 Paladin / 3 Monk / 2 Ranger

*IMPORTANT NOTES*
1. After testing, I changed the build to 15 Paladin / 3 Ranger / 2 monk and the build stays mainly in Defender of Siberis with Legendary Dreadnought.
2. I made a second change which only applies to players having the completionist feat available, and I am playing a 14 paladin / 4 ranger / 2 monk which has +4 damage & saves over the 15/3/2 split.
3. First video of the build at level 20: here
4. I reach level 25, here are some screenshots





5. Videos coming soon!

Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9WQRWarPJI (Presentation of the build at Level 20)
Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmBQzAU1Xo (EEDA Solo in 30 min with no pots/consumables - Fastest completion!)


BACKGROUND
As someone who plays one character, I find myself getting bored of a build once I have acquired all the gear pieces relevant to the build and know how to play the build to perfection.
Consequently, I often find myself dreaming about what my next life could be. I like to try new things.
My last couple of lives have followed the theme of having the "ranged" option, either with a completely ranged character, such as the Sithali build, or simply by having Manyshot.

To understand the build and the concept behind it, it is important to know that as DDO evolves, saves, defenses, self-healing & burst DPS gained a lot in importance.
These are some of the reasons that have contributed to popularize builds such as AAs, Shiradi Casters and the Juggernaut.


My first capped toon was a WF Paladin inspired by Ultimega (the name may be familiar to some Khyber folks). I enjoyed this toon a lot, and with the nerf of Zeal, I didn't really have a reason to revisit the Paladin Class. Until now.

Contrary to popular belief, paladins have gained a lot in power (Being able to Dual-Boost with Haste boost twisted, 2 extra feats on a feat-starved class, Great Synergy with the Fury of the Wild Destiny). Their DPS is lower than some other classes but with their saves, self healing and utility (Ability to Off-tank, very high UMD...), they are nearly impossible to kill.


PROS vs CONS (in no particular order)

• + High Saves
• + Great instantaneous self healing, and out of combat healing
• + High DPS Paladin
• + High Burst DPS w/ Manyshot & Dual Boosts
• + High healing amplification
• + Decent PRR
• + Benefits a lot from Completionist and great gear as they have several main stats
• + Evasion
• + Sprint Boost
• + Very self sufficient: makes a great soloer
• + Synergy with the Fury of the Wild Destiny
• + Complex to play (less boring), clickie-intensive (active & thoughtfull gameplay), not an easy button like Shiradi Casters
• + Versatility: 2 different destinies to play with depending on the situation, 2 combat styles (either TWF or THF)
• + Situationally Monk Light buffs
• - Good luck finding one

The name of the build comes from the French Mountains called "The Pyrénées". I will be playing the build in a couple of weeks.


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PYRENE, LAWFUL GOOD HUMAN: 15 PALADIN / 3 MONK / 2 RANGER


STATS* (36) All sustainable, assuming LD
Str - 16+6(lvl)+4(tome)+2(compl)+2(yugo)+2(ship)+8(item) +2(insight)+4(alchem)+5(primal)+2(madstone)+1(exc) = 54
Dex - 14+4(tome)+2(compl)+2(ship)+2(yugo)+8(item)+2(insi ght)+4(alchem)+1(exc)+1(enh)=40
Con - 16+4(tome)+2(compl)+2(ship)+2(yugo)+(8item)+2(insi ght)+4(alchem)+5(primal)+1(exc)+4(madstone)= [b]50/b]
Int - 8+4(tome)+2(Compl)+2(ship)+1(exc)=17
Wis - 8+4(tome)+2(compl)+2(yugo)+2(ship)+7(item)+2(Insig ht)+1(exc)= 28
Cha - 16+4(tome)+2(compl)+2(ship)+2(yugo)+8(item)+3(insi ght)+2(enh.)+1(exc) = 40

*: Adjust stats according to tomes available to you. Keep in mind 18 base charisma is needed for Divine Might III, 23 base Str for Overwhelming critical and 17 base Dex for Manyshot.

LEVELING ORDER & FEATS
1. M: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Power Attack
2. M: Toughness (Evasion)
3. R: Cleave, FE: Giants (Bow Strength)
4. R: (Rapid Shot)
5. P
6. P: Great Cleave, (Divine Grace)
7-8. P
9. P: Quicken
10-11. P
12. P: Manyshot
13-14. P
15. P: Improved Critical: Slashing
16-17. P
18. P: Improved Critical: Ranged
19. P
20. M: Light Path
21-25. Overwhelming Critical, Completionist/Empower Healing

# Legendary Dreadnought is used most of the time
Twists w/ Legendary
3. Sense Weakness (Tier 4 LD)
2. Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Unyielding Sentinel)
1. Primal Scream / Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Fury / Primal Avatar)

# Fury of the Wild is used for raids or when there is already someone blitzing in the group
Twists w/ Fury of the Wild
3. Haste Boost (Tier 3 LD)
2. Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Unyielding Sentinel)
1. Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal Avatar)


ENHANCEMENTS

• HUMAN Charisma I (2), Improved Recovery II (6), Human Versatility IV (10), Racial Toughness II (3),
• RANGER Ranger Sprint boost I (1), Favored Damage I (1), Dexterity I (2)
• MONK Patient Tortoise I (1), Improved Recovery I (2)
• PALADIN Resistance of Good II (3), Divine Righteousness I (1), Divine Sacrifice II (3), Exalted Smite III (6), Extra Lay on Hands II (3), Extra Smite Evil IV (10), Hunter of the Dead II (3), Devotion II (3), Charisma I (2), Toughness II (3), Divine Might III (6), Improved Turning II (3), Extra Turning II (3)

SPELLS

• Level 1: (3) Protection from Evil, Divine Favor, Virtue
• Level 2: (2) Resist Energy, Cure Light Wounds
• Level 3: (2) Cure Moderate Wounds, Prayer
• Level 4: (2) Cure Serious Wounds, Zeal

SKILLS
Max UMD (***)
Concentration (**)
Balance (**)
Spot (*)
Put 1 point in Tumble at start

SAVES
F-15+4(GH)+7(res)+1(alch)+1(ship)+2(luck)+20(stat)+4 (insight)+15(cha)+2(brace)= 71
R-11+4(GH)+7(res)+1(alch)+1(ship)+2(luck)+15(stat)+1 (haste)+4(insight)+15(cha)+2(brace)= 63 + Evasion
W-8+4(GH)+7(res)+1(alch)+1(ship)+2(luck)+9(stat)+4(i nsight)+15(cha)+2(brace)= 53
*Considering the save check is in the low 60's for EEGH (61-63 from my experience), you will never fail a save with 71/63/53. Reflex save being the most important as most will-save based spells you can protect yourself from.

HIT POINTS
20 base
+10 Favor
+50 Epic levels
+190 class
+400 con
+35 GFL
+20 toughness item
+27 toughness feat
+40 toughness enh.
+20 barb pl
+50 LD levels
+5 tortoise
+45 shroud
+20 yugo
=932 HP sustainable (982 HP in Fury).

Enough when you never fail a save and you have evasion.


PRR
10 base
+ 14 slotted
+ 15 planar
= 39 in LD (45 w/ Fury)

Healing Amplification

There have been some super-high healing amplification paladin builds in the past, but honestly, besides seeing good numbers and being self sufficient, they didn't bring much to the table.
The Pyrene has some great healing amp. but doesn't push it to the point you sacrifice gear slots and DPS to see cool numbers pop up.

1.05 Pally PL
1.1 ship
1.1 HotD 1
1.1 HotD 2
1.1 enh.
1.2 enh.
1.3 bracers
= 240% Healing Amp.



GEAR

Helm: EE Black Dragon Helm w/ 8 con (Yellow, Green)
Goggles: EE Intricate Field Optics w/ 3 insight. cha (Yellow, Green)
Necklace: Pendant of the Stormreaver (Yellow)
Armor: Black Dragon Robe (Blue)
Trinket: Planar focus of Prowess w/ 8 str
Cloak: EE Jeweled Cloak (Yellow, Green)
Belt: +45 HP Belt
Ring1: Ring of Deceit (Yellow, Colorless)
Ring2: Ring of the Stalker (Yellow, colorless)
Boots: Halcyon Boots (Yellow, colorless)
Gloves: Gauntlets of Immortality (Yellow, Colorless)
Bracers: Greater Convalescent bracers of superior parrying
Quiver: EE Quiver of Poison

Weapon:

• Tier 4 Cleaver Hewer of Suffering w/ Good/Elemental Damage
• Tier 4 Pinion, Cloud-Piercer w/Red slot: +1d10 Ice damage
• Various DR Breakers: ESOS, EAGA

Note: The gear setup can be really changed according to what you have available. Ex: EE Treads of Falling Shadows, EE Nether Grasps (and putting 114 devotion on the Cleaver), Adamantine Cloak of the wolf


SOME POSSIBLE QUESTIONS


#1. Why Empower Healing vs another feat such as Maximize or Stunning blow? While there are a lot of clickies allowing the use of the Maximize feat at no extra spell cost, Rejuvenation Cocoon only works with Empower Healing. Stunning blow is irrelevant for current endgame as it is difficult to make it work on non monks/fighters/barbarians, especially due to stat repartition for paladins.
#2. Why no intimidate? It is not very important to have because a simple manyshot will instantly give you the aggro. Your solid melee DPS combined with Divine Righteousness will be enough to keep aggro. Only EELOB requires a specialized tank at this point of the game, and with this build you can be the tank in any raid.
#3. Why no investment in AC? 1. You cannot have evasion if you wear heavy armor. 2. Using Robes saves a significant amount of time when switching situationnally or for clickies. 3. It simply doesn't work well in EE.
#4. Why Cleaver over Esos? LD offers an additional crit multiplier to the cleaver. 15 PRR is also incredibly important. You may not see it now; So either trust me or go in EEDA solo and we will understand each other
#5. Why THF over TWF? TWF also works pretty well on this build (since with THF>TWF nowadays, paladins is the most viable class for TWF) - Replace Quicken+Maximize for ITWF+GTWF. Drop IC:Ranged for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh. If going for the Deathnips route, drop Ic:Slashing for Ic:Piercing.

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It took me a while to put it together so I hope you guys enjoy it.

Waiting to hear your thoughts on the Pyrene,

Sith

[boredman]

Adding manyshot and ranged combat instead THF line seems clever and nice, especially for players that can cover the meele dps deficit with gear and destinies at end level. Guess If I want to take DOS prestige can switch toughness for diehard too.

(For exalted smites with Fury destiny Esos may be better I think, but anyways can switch between weapons)

So, to me seems a nice build for geared players, well done (Guess can be an alternative fleshie build to the juggernaut, with less buffs and spells, no traps, but more saves and hp)

[kierg10]

interesting build.

I want to reserve judgement until I see some videos (hint hint wink wink) but I tend to find the pally/monk/2 splash of something builds have lower dps, but that is because they tend to go unarmed(not saying unarmed is weak, but with lower numbers of monk levels and not all the twink gear-as well as no EDs since heroic lvls-makes for weaker unarmed dmg).....I feel like actually using weapons and manyshot for burst, would be a great way to amp up the damage.

also pally has always been one of my fave classes even though I have never played one to cap (next life is either 18p/2f or 18p/2rog depending on what my tr group will need....)

my only original remaining character is a pally 15 (drow elf tank) who I do not play much lol.

please excuse the probably many spelling errors.......typing from an ipod and all that jazz.

[Dieterstrife]

Dual wield the new Deathnips. Exalted Smite+Adrenaline+Deathnips=Super happy sexy times.

[Loriac]

This is a build I have been considering too, pretty much the exact same feats (may have mentioned it in a couple of paladin dps threads).

The core that gives it the ranged functionality is 2monk/1rgr, which together buys you evasion, 2 feats, and bow strength.

This even works on cleric builds, in particular a HOrc 17Cleric/2Monk/1rgr - pretty much identical feats (you drop IC:R and rely on manyshot during fury), if you want a character that can even raid heal.

If/when I get tired of playing the juggernaut I'm currently using, either the paladin or cleric version of this concept is definitely next on my list.

[crabjuice]

Guess If I want to take DOS prestige can switch toughness for diehard too.

You could swap 1 monk level for another ranger level and pickup diehard that way.

Dual wield the new Deathnips. Exalted Smite+Adrenaline+Deathnips=Super happy sexy times.

Argh, I've been trying to pickup tome pages on my Paladin for the last few days. Of course I have a lot of work to do before I unlock FotW...

[hit_fido]

Coincidentally I was trying to think of an interesting way to play through a paladin life, what looked interesting to me was paladin 14, ranger 4, monk 2... to me the big differences look like:

lose: divine might iii -> divine might ii; cure serious; 10% heal amp
gain: free precise shot so gain a feat; free diehard (flexibility for swapping to dos); rams might

To the inexperienced eye it looks like the biggest loss is cure serious, the biggest gain is a feat since you wont need to take precise shot. What other ways would you contrast between these? Is losing cure serious worse than I think it is - your lay on hands work as your emergency heals anyway don't they? Did you consider a deeper ranger splash and rule it out for some reasons?

Thanks, looks like I should rethink more...

[serthcore]

Sure will work. For me it looks similar as the juggernout. A self healing, high saves + evasion toon that uses THF plus manyshot (both of which got buffed a lot thanks to epic destinies, unbeatable combo).
Cant wait to see videos of her in action!

btw, what do you think about half elf with rogue diletante on a non completionism? one less feat: icrit ranged or empower heal maybe?

oh and i love the name, but live on the other side of the "Pirineos" though.

[emptysands]

I've been tossing around the same ideas - Paladin 15 is a pretty good platform. It's great that you have done all the work to flesh out some of the extra stuff I haven't worked out yet.

I note you have dropped IPS, which is something I've been tossing up as well.

Basically you have:
Feats: 7 (base) + 2 (Monk) + 2 (epic) + 1 (human) = 12

Ranger (Free): Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, TWF
Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, Cleave, GC, OC
Ranged (4): PBS, Many Shot, IC: Ranged, Precise Shot
Other/Meta (3): Toughness, Empowered Healing, Quicken

with Ranger 2 being worth three feats, as you do not need to take WF: Ranged in order to get Bow Strength.

There is also:

Human 15 Paladin/4 Ranger/1 Monk

Feats: 7 (base) + 1 (Monk) + 2 (epic) + 1 (human) = 11

Ranger (Free): Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, TWF, Diehard, Precise Shot
Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, Cleave, GC, OC
Ranged (3): PBS, Many Shot, IC: Ranged
Other/Meta (3): Toughness, Empowered Healing, Quicken

This version gets Rams Might vs 10% Heal Amp

[Symerith]

Coincidentally I was trying to think of an interesting way to play through a paladin life, what looked interesting to me was paladin 14, ranger 4, monk 2... to me the big differences look like:

lose: divine might iii -> divine might ii; cure serious; 10% heal amp
gain: free precise shot so gain a feat; free diehard (flexibility for swapping to dos); rams might

To the inexperienced eye it looks like the biggest loss is cure serious, the biggest gain is a feat since you wont need to take precise shot. What other ways would you contrast between these? Is losing cure serious worse than I think it is - your lay on hands work as your emergency heals anyway don't they? Did you consider a deeper ranger splash and rule it out for some reasons?

Thanks, looks like I should rethink more...

You pretty much said all the pros/cons.

Well, as I exclusively run EE content and we do not have any healers in the guild :P Kind of a "free for all" crew, so everyone needs to be self sufficient. LOH will be the primary emergency heals, but Quickened CSW/Cocoon will be just as good.

Sure will work. For me it looks similar as the juggernout. A self healing, high saves + evasion toon that uses THF plus manyshot (both of which got buffed a lot thanks to epic destinies, unbeatable combo).
Cant wait to see videos of her in action!

btw, what do you think about half elf with rogue diletante on a non completionism? one less feat: icrit ranged or empower heal maybe?

oh and i love the name, but live on the other side of the "Pirineos" though.

I've now played a jug for a little bit. Having been able to solo EEDA with it pretty much sums it up well: solid DPS/Defenses/Burst DPS on a self sufficient platform.

You can definitely see it as a fleshie version of the Jug. Although this build offers better DPS, saves and IMO will be more fun to play as you have a lot more hotkeys to play with. HP will be similar, you lose weapon buff and traps ability (but in all my lives, I swear I haven't disabled more than 20 traps, it's something I hate doing). Plus, you get to be the cool looking human female

I have thought about Half elf but the main problem is the loss of a feat and the AP investment. 6 AP and losing Empower heal/Icrit: ranged is a big deal.

I've been tossing around the same ideas - Paladin 15 is a pretty good platform. It's great that you have done all the work to flesh out some of the extra stuff I haven't worked out yet.

I note you have dropped IPS, which is something I've been tossing up as well.

Basically you have:
Feats: 7 (base) + 2 (Monk) + 2 (epic) + 1 (human) = 12

Ranger (Free): Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, TWF
Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, Cleave, GC, OC
Ranged (4): PBS, Many Shot, IC: Ranged, Precise Shot
Other/Meta (3): Toughness, Empowered Healing, Quicken

with Ranger 2 being worth three feats, as you do not need to take WF: Ranged in order to get Bow Strength.

There is also:

Human 15 Paladin/4 Ranger/1 Monk

Feats: 7 (base) + 1 (Monk) + 2 (epic) + 1 (human) = 11

Ranger (Free): Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, TWF, Diehard, Precise Shot
Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, Cleave, GC, OC
Ranged (3): PBS, Many Shot, IC: Ranged
Other/Meta (3): Toughness, Empowered Healing, Quicken

This version gets Rams Might vs 10% Heal Amp

Good summary of the two "best" options: comes down to Ram's Might vs Evasion+Minor Heal amp.
I know most people used to "avoid" building for evasion, but endgame changed and I think it is worth getting now.
But since there are "different endgames" for every person, the 15/4/1 variant might be better for lower difficulties or people who play as a team.

[maddmatt70]

I would max out your smites and twist in regenerating smites from unyielding sentenial. Adrenaline smites are just so awesome. I would go from primal avatar personally without regenerating smites because the epic moment in primal avatar is just too much dps to pass up.

Edit: Primal Avatar Tree form will outdps a fury manyshot on a single target fyi. Only reason why I am on the fence with pallys for primal avatar vs. fury of the wild is they get adrenaline smites which is nice on trash.

[Symerith]

I'll spend 75% of my time in LD.

The rest of the time I'll be sticking in FotW.

By regenerating smites, do you mean endless smiting?

I haven't played with Primal Avatar at all since at first glance, it looked like **** to me. I find it hard to believe Primal Avatar can reach the average of 10k DPS/sec a fury manyshotter is getting on a single target. But like I said, I haven't tested it, can you explain?

[maddmatt70]

I'll spend 75% of my time in LD.

The rest of the time I'll be sticking in FotW.

By regenerating smites, do you mean endless smiting?

I haven't played with Primal Avatar at all since at first glance, it looked like **** to me. I find it hard to believe Primal Avatar can reach the average of 10k DPS/sec a fury manyshotter is getting on a single target. But like I said, I haven't tested it, can you explain?

Yeah play around with the epic moment in primal avatar a bunch. You will find that it can do awesome dps on one target if you move around and twitch it a bit when in tree form. A group of primal avatar melee just absolutely destroys the dragons in tor - just destroys and really any boss that is 2 min or less fight primal is just great. The best thing about unbridled manyshot is improved precise shot which just mows down the trash sets so it kind of depends on what you want to do with your character a bit. Yeah endless smiting is great on a paladin in fury in the wild. You can hit a 10k adrenaline smite on two weapon and probably about 12k on two hander which is just awesome. I can not have enough smites lol.

It all depends on how you want to play a character but really play around with primal avatar a bunch regardless of what you do. Work on getting the epic moment correct because it takes a little practice to be able to do that properly, but once you get it going the red numbers just stream.

[emptysands]

Well, as I exclusively run EE content and we do not have any healers in the guild :P Kind of a "free for all" crew, so everyone needs to be self sufficient. LOH will be the primary emergency heals, but Quickened CSW/Cocoon will be just as good.

I agree.

I have thought about Half elf but the main problem is the loss of a feat and the AP investment. 6 AP and losing Empower heal/Icrit: ranged is a big deal.

This version of the build, definitely needs to be human. Even with level 28, I would put the extra epic feat into IPS. If you went HE, the only potential feat you could drop is Quicken or one of the ICs, which kinda defeats the purpose.


Good summary of the two "best" options: comes down to Ram's Might vs Evasion+Minor Heal amp.
I know most people used to "avoid" building for evasion, but endgame changed and I think it is worth getting now.
But since there are "different endgames" for every person, the 15/4/1 variant might be better for lower difficulties or people who play as a team.

Yeah, I missed the evasion bit. Thanks for reminding me.

I'm not entirely convinced by robes for close-in melee. Without 10k, you will be in melee 60-70% of the time. Lack of IPS, also means you can not "Adrenaline" clear a bunch of mobs.

Self-buff you have only ghostly (stalker). Maybe or maybe not you'll get a blur. And displacement clicks could be a pain to manage. On my 992 drunk build, having sleet storm makes a big difference to damage mitigation.

On a high saves, high HP build I'm wondering if heavy armour is better.

Note: Your PRR calc is wrong. Base PRR depends on your armor type - which is zero for robes.

So 14+15+6=35 is 19.2%. Whereas with say the heavy armor 15/4/1fighter build you get BAB=23. So PRR is 25+29 = 64 or 30.8%.

I would max out your smites and twist in regenerating smites from unyielding sentenial. Adrenaline smites are just so awesome. I would go from primal avatar personally without regenerating smites because the epic moment in primal avatar is just too much dps to pass up.

Edit: Primal Avatar Tree form will outdps a fury manyshot on a single target fyi. Only reason why I am on the fence with pallys for primal avatar vs. fury of the wild is they get adrenaline smites which is nice on trash.

I haven't played Primal much, but spirit doesn't proc off ranged. I'm guessing that will not with this build, as their will be periods where spirit is not being generated.

[maddmatt70]

I haven't played Primal much, but spirit doesn't proc off ranged. I'm guessing that will not with this build, as their will be periods where spirit is not being generated.

Yeah I am really not sure exactly what the OP wants to do with the build from an offensive standpoint. Has manyshot so it looks like some ranging when manyshot ongoing, but the rest of the time not too clear although I see smites maxed so was guessing manyshot when it is available and melee the rest of the time. I am not really sure if I see manyshot as this huge advantage for this build, but what have yeah. True primal does not do much for ranged, but even so really recommend the OP check it out - it might change his mind on build depending on what he is intending to use the manyshot for.

[Blank_Zero]

Looks like a fun build Sym!

Hope it's a fun one, I know I just LR'd Smrti myself, so I understand playing 1 toon til you get bored with it.

[Symerith]

Yeah, I missed the evasion bit. Thanks for reminding me.

I'm not entirely convinced by robes for close-in melee. Without 10k, you will be in melee 60-70% of the time. Lack of IPS, also means you can not "Adrenaline" clear a bunch of mobs.

I don't have it on the jug. and I don't miss it. Sure it's a powerful tool, but difficult to make it work and most of the times it is used for the purpose of killing a single target mob & charging blitz.

Self-buff you have only ghostly (stalker). Maybe or maybe not you'll get a blur. And displacement clicks could be a pain to manage. On my 992 drunk build, having sleet storm makes a big difference to damage mitigation.

Sleet storm, never really gave it a thought. So you just carry clickies around? (Or druids actually have the spell? Clickie wise, it's no big deal and it's something I enjoy doing. Pretty much full time displaced.

On a high saves, high HP build I'm wondering if heavy armour is better.

Note: Your PRR calc is wrong. Base PRR depends on your armor type - which is zero for robes.

No, it's correct, the base 10 comes from equiping a shield ...

So 14+15+6=35 is 19.2%. Whereas with say the heavy armor 15/4/1fighter build you get BAB=23. So PRR is 25+29 = 64 or 30.8%.

I'll be using light armor - if not for personal convenience, for the looks
The only thing is the build might benefit more from Syberis PRE rather than 1.21 healing amp and minor bonuses from HotD. Might drop Empower heal for a Syberis prereq. Might go without evasion altogether, reflex save being what it is... that's better damage/defenses at the cost of self healing and survivability. Yet undecided, and I'll TR sometime this week or next week.

I haven't played Primal much, but spirit doesn't proc off ranged. I'm guessing that will not with this build, as their will be periods where spirit is not being generated.

Yeah I am really not sure exactly what the OP wants to do with the build from an offensive standpoint. Has manyshot so it looks like some ranging when manyshot ongoing, but the rest of the time not too clear although I see smites maxed so was guessing manyshot when it is available and melee the rest of the time. I am not really sure if I see manyshot as this huge advantage for this build, but what have yeah. True primal does not do much for ranged, but even so really recommend the OP check it out - it might change his mind on build depending on what he is intending to use the manyshot for.

So I watched some videos of the use of Primal Avatar and I have to say I am impressed.
But there are a few reasons why I'll stick with LD (and fury):
- LD grants me +2 crit multiplier which is awesome combined with the AOE attacks (4 total you cycle through)
- LD is a zerg type destiny. Fits my playstyle very well (low CDs is great too).
- There is no apparent synergy btw Primal Avatar & manyshot (tell me if I'm wrong - once again I have only watched a couple of videos). Fury manyshot is roughly 10k DPS/sec on a single target Pinned/stunned.
With LD, manyshot is awesome as well (even though it is less "crit based DPS"), either to charge it up or just to burst DPS red names. On the AA build I couldn't get past the orthons waves (couldn't charge blitz or keep myself alive when I tried in fury). On the jug life, I was able to get it done on the first try, by prepping mobs and manyshotting casters/fire ellies to charge up blitz quickly. It is an awesome addition to any build.
- There is a lot of synergy with smites/manyshot/adrenaline/fury.
- From my perspective (someone who has only played with LD/Fury), melees w/ manyshot are better off with LD/Fury, but "less focused melee DPS classes" like clerics/fvs/bards/druids are better off w/ Primal, as they charge it up faster.

[maddmatt70]

So I watched some videos of the use of Primal Avatar and I have to say I am impressed.
But there are a few reasons why I'll stick with LD (and fury):
- LD grants me +2 crit multiplier which is awesome combined with the AOE attacks (4 total you cycle through)
- LD is a zerg type destiny. Fits my playstyle very well (low CDs is great too).
- There is no apparent synergy btw Primal Avatar & manyshot (tell me if I'm wrong - once again I have only watched a couple of videos). Fury manyshot is roughly 10k DPS/sec on a single target Pinned/stunned.
With LD, manyshot is awesome as well (even though it is less "crit based DPS"), either to charge it up or just to burst DPS red names. On the AA build I couldn't get past the orthons waves (couldn't charge blitz or keep myself alive when I tried in fury). On the jug life, I was able to get it done on the first try, by prepping mobs and manyshotting casters/fire ellies to charge up blitz quickly. It is an awesome addition to any build.
- There is a lot of synergy with smites/manyshot/adrenaline/fury.
- From my perspective (someone who has only played with LD/Fury), melees w/ manyshot are better off with LD/Fury, but "less focused melee DPS classes" like clerics/fvs/bards/druids are better off w/ Primal, as they charge it up faster.

I concur with your analysis although for builds that are less bursty and less spell castery primal might also be the way to go at least if the character is in a full party. I did about 4 gianthold tor ees this past weekend with a 12 monk 8 fighter. The character had about maximum heal amp of about 450 or so and was a somewhat tankish build. Me and another player were running archers. The character did a decent job on the kill counts, but me and the other archer were out killing him in the quest, but where you could really notice a difference on the red named giant and dragon in the end rooms. It was very impressive to be honest.

I have a level 20 pure rogue that is sort of a glass jaw on ee. I am going to give it a try on him who knows maybe can get some use out of him before the expansion pass.

[Purkilius]

My first capped toon was a pally to but I was going to wait until the enhancement pass for another go at them but I just might try this 1 rather than the jugger.

Keep us posted how it plays out pls

[emptysands]

Sleet storm, never really gave it a thought. So you just carry clickies around? (Or druids actually have the spell? Clickie wise, it's no big deal and it's something I enjoy doing. Pretty much full time displaced.

Yes, druids get it as a spell. Works very well with sneak attack from HE Rogue, Ninja spy and Druid PrE.

No, it's correct, the base 10 comes from equiping a shield ...

I usually try avoid this in my calcs - you never know when they might get fixed. Like Wild Weapons.

I'll be using light armor - if not for personal convenience, for the looks
The only thing is the build might benefit more from Syberis PRE rather than 1.21 healing amp and minor bonuses from HotD. Might drop Empower heal for a Syberis prereq. Might go without evasion altogether, reflex save being what it is... that's better damage/defenses at the cost of self healing and survivability. Yet undecided, and I'll TR sometime this week or next week.

If you drop evasion, consider going fighter. Maybe 15/4/1. Then you don't need to spend a feat to get DOS.

Something like:

Feats: 7 (base) + 3 Fighter + 2 (epic) + 1 (human) = 13

Ranger (Free): Bow Strength
Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, Cleave, GC, OC
Ranged (5): Rapid Shot, PBS, Many Shot, IC: Ranged, Precise Shot
Other/Meta (3): Toughness, Empowered Healing, Quicken

Even 15/4 Ranger/1 Fighter can do the same and get Ram's Might and +3 Reflex over 4 Fighter.

Feats: 7 (base) + 1 Fighter + 2 (epic) + 1 (human) = 11

Ranger (Free): Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, TWF
Offensive (5): PA, IC:Slash, Cleave, GC, OC
Ranged (3): PBS, Many Shot, IC: Ranged
Other/Meta (3): Toughness, Empowered Healing, Quicken