Pyrene, the Endgame Paladin

[Symerith]

I thought I'd drop a quick update.

Level 17 now - won't have time to play much the following days though..

I changed the build split to 14 paladin / 4 ranger / 2 monk.
Nets me +4 damage, and another feat (completionist) for some more damage/hp/saves (+2 saves since paladin).
The cost? -2 damage and only one level 4 spell: zeal probably most of the time, CSW in particularly intensive quests.
Pretty much switching from HotD to DoS since 4 ranger gives me die hard (prereq to DoS). Saves, defenses and hitpoints are better (75 68 57) but I lose some heal amp. I will let you know how it goes.

[emptysands]

I thought I'd drop a quick update.

Level 17 now - won't have time to play much the following days though..

I changed the build split to 14 paladin / 4 ranger / 2 monk.
Nets me +4 damage, and another feat (completionist) for some more damage/hp/saves (+2 saves since paladin).
The cost? -2 damage and only one level 4 spell: zeal probably most of the time, CSW in particularly intensive quests.
Pretty much switching from HotD to DoS since 4 ranger gives me die hard (prereq to DoS). Saves, defenses and hitpoints are better (75 68 57) but I lose some heal amp. I will let you know how it goes.

You less 1AP/10% heal amp as well. So 1.1*1.1*1.2 less heal amp. Similar version but as Dwarf and with the new enhancement update would work well with both HotD and Dwarven Defender. You'd lose Completionist, so maybe only useful for non-completionists.

Be interested if you can test how useful evasion is for EEs - put some heavy armour on, see if it makes a difference. Particularly in the new EH FoT, evasion with good saves might reduce gearing requirements.

I've got my 12Fighter/6Arti/2Paladin (saves) or 2 Ranger (IPS) idea [1] as a stepping stone (Fighter PL) to Dwarf 15 Paladin/3 Monk/2 Fighter idea (version of [2]). Battle Engineer is really nice as the +2 for main weapon is effective 4 feats if you use both ranged and slashing: WF and WS x2. Plus -10%ASF will help for arcane scroll rebuffs in heavy armour.

I'm two minds about the lack of evasion and self-cast burst heals.

[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=410907
[2] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388329

[Carpone]

Pretty much switching from HotD to DoS since 4 ranger gives me die hard (prereq to DoS).

DoS and Adrenaline don't play well with each other.

[Dieterstrife]

No, no they don't. Fury is 90% useless for a Stalwart or a Defender. It's not worth the switch unless you just are sticking to dread or shiradi.

[Symerith]

I haven't played in a bit (Playing BF3 and TERA mostly atm) so I haven't touched the pyrene beyond level 20.

Please enlighten me because I don't see how losing 2 damage (you actually win 5-2=3 damage in fury) & 2 saves when you still have no-fails is a big deal. And that's not even counting primal scream.

Also, the build is sticking almost all the time in Legendary dreadnought (even in FOT as blitzing on anything but EE is beast), and for the few times where it will switch to fury, I just don't see what's so bad about it.

[Dieterstrife]

It loses out because Adrenaline is considered being raged. Meaning that 400% damage boost and everything else you get from overload is 100% negated. Honestly that's why I never leave dreadnought even when raiding, is because Fury is 100% useless to me.

[Laeelin]

I'm TRing my fresh to 20 monk into this after a little gear farming. I have a +3 all tome.

I'm trying to decide between a modified version and the original version. I like the idea of the Deathnip version because it looks interesting and it's gear I can get quickly (I have about 1.8 books completed currently on different characters I can trade to him).

When I started trying to fit in the TWF feats I ended up looking at a 12/6/2 version of the build to save feats. With that combination I can change to TWF without giving up any feats. In fact I gain dodge (nothing else good to take at level 3). I do lose zeal, CSW, Exalted Smite III and Divine Might III. However I also gain level 1 ranger spells. (Ram's Might).

1) How does the build below look?

2) I'm also a bit confused about smite evil. Clearly I have been undervaluing it a lot, and I don't really understand what is so nice about it. (I've never played a paladin.) What is so nice about smite evil?

3) Sithali is the other (totally different) build I'm thinking about. Thanks for the great ideas Sith. Two beautiful builds!

Level 25 Lawful Good Human Female
(12 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 6 Ranger \ 5 Epic) 
Hit Points: 426
Spell Points: 190 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 28
Reflex: 24
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
Strength             16                    25
Dexterity            14                    18
Constitution         16                    19
Intelligence          8                    11
Wisdom                8                    11
Charisma             15                    20

Tomes Used
+3 Tome of all used last lift

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength

Level 4 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard

Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot

Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
Feat: (Automatic) Archer's Focus

Level 8 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons

Level 10 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace

Level 11 (Paladin)
Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Paladin)
Level 14 (Paladin)
Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Paladin)
Level 17 (Paladin)
Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 19 (Paladin)
Level 20 (Paladin)
Level 21
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical

Level 22
Level 23
Level 24
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell

Level 25
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning II

[Wipey]

It loses out because Adrenaline is considered being raged. Meaning that 400% damage boost and everything else you get from overload is 100% negated. Honestly that's why I never leave dreadnought even when raiding, is because Fury is 100% useless to me.

Drop the stance, switch to fury ( with dread tactics, brace, grim precision, whatever you fancy ), takes 20 seconds. It's not exactly rocket science.

Stubborness and dread which you can't keep up is much less than fury.

[Symerith]

..

Hey! Glad you like it.. personnally it's been really fun so far.. it's very clickie intensive, and that's something I really enjoy.

Smite evil basically works like adrenaline.. it increases your damage (by raising your critical multiplier and your critical threat by 1 or 2), but it doesn't work with ranged. So it's a "worse" version of adrenaline, but combined with adrenaline it's a very powerful toy (as you basically increase your next attack by 400% and get +2 crit multiplier).

Paladin exalted smite II is +1 crit multiplier, exalted smite III is +2 crit multiplier but requires 14 Paladin levels.
The 12 paladin / 6 ranger / 2 monk will work, but at that point, you might as well go for 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 paladin, you can fit in all the feats, make stunning blow work, and still twist in cocoon for self heals.

For most people, I'd advice to go 15 / 3 / 2 (either 3ranger2monk or 2ranger3monk depending on if you want to go for DoS, or HotD). For someone that is a completionist like me, the 14 paladin / 4 ranger / 2 monk is slightly better as you can fit in a bit more damage.

For you, I'd advice to go for the same split: 14 paladin / 4 ranger / 2 monk, you still get Ram's might, the ability to get CSW or Zeal, Exalted Smite III, free DoS prereq. Feat wise, you drop the completionist feat and IC: Ranged and pick up ITWF and GTWF.

The last thing is the build's survivability is incredible. As someone who played a jugg for my last life, the pyrene fits my playstyle perfectly (also since I like to come up with builds of my own). Great saves, healing is awesome (150-180 CSW & 450-500 healing crits so far and I don't even have any spell power!), burst DPS is great. Lay on hands x6 hit in the 500's, and well.. cocoon! Nearly impossible to take me down.
I'm really not playing much, but it's a fun to play build, and I certainly intend to solo EEDA with it when I cap him.

Good luck with it, whataver you end up deciding :P

Edit: One last thing: if you are sure you will stick with Deathnips (Very solid choice) then the 14/4/2 is probably best. If you hesitate with some of the CITW weapons, which provide good survivability/trash takedown, then you might want to go for the build you planned out, unless of course you are ready to drop a feat (Quicken or Empower I suppose).

[Laeelin]

For you, I'd advice to go for the same split: 14 paladin / 4 ranger / 2 monk, you still get Ram's might, the ability to get CSW or Zeal, Exalted Smite III, free DoS prereq. Feat wise, you drop the completionist feat and IC: Ranged and pick up ITWF and GTWF.

I would still need to drop one other feat because I cant take ITWF, GTWF, or any of the other feats needed by the build at a low enough level. I think I should just bite the bullet and go with THF like your original build shows.

Edit: Checking out something in the building, second guessing myself again

Edit 2: Still have the feat problem. Even though I have an open feat at level 3, I don't have anything to take in that spot. Changing when I take monk doesn't help because PA and Toughness are the only monk feats I need, so I'm forced to take them as the monk bonus feats either way. At level 3 I don't qualify for any other needed feat. It does offer the option of changing to a different race (HE?) or I could pick up EW:Khopesh or Dodge. Either way I'm left with one more feat to drop and I'm not willing to drop quicken or empowered healing (hurts survival to much).

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Human Bonus) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: ?????????

So, unless someone has a good suggestion, I'm back to THF. Not exactly a bad thing

[nni]

Drop the stance, switch to fury ( with dread tactics, brace, grim precision, whatever you fancy ), takes 20 seconds. It's not exactly rocket science.

Stubborness and dread which you can't keep up is much less than fury.

So then why go DoS instead of HotD?

[Symerith]

I would still need to drop one other feat because I cant take ITWF, GTWF, or any of the other feats needed by the build at a low enough level. I think I should just bite the bullet and go with THF like your original build shows.

Edit: Checking out something in the building, second guessing myself again

Just change the leveling pattern

So then why go DoS instead of HotD?

+4 damage, +4 saves, more HP/PRR rather than some extra heal amp+second lvl 4 spell slot

[nni]

Curse you Symerith for making me rethink my decision to roll up a 15/3/2 Pally/monk/fighter.

So compared to the above you essentially give up the THF line for a ranged damage option.

[Systern]

Hey! Glad you like it.. personnally it's been really fun so far.. it's very clickie intensive, and that's something I really enjoy.

Smite evil basically works like adrenaline.. it increases your damage (by raising your critical multiplier and your critical threat by 1 or 2), but it doesn't work with ranged. So it's a "worse" version of adrenaline, but combined with adrenaline it's a very powerful toy (as you basically increase your next attack by 400% and get +2 crit multiplier).

Paladin exalted smite II is +1 crit multiplier, exalted smite III is +2 crit multiplier but requires 14 Paladin levels.
The 12 paladin / 6 ranger / 2 monk will work, but at that point, you might as well go for 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 paladin, you can fit in all the feats, make stunning blow work, and still twist in cocoon for self heals.

For most people, I'd advice to go 15 / 3 / 2 (either 3ranger2monk or 3ranger2monk depending on if you want to go for DoS, or HotD). For someone that is a completionist like me, the 14 paladin / 4 ranger / 2 monk is slightly better as you can fit in a bit more damage.
...

As Henry Ford said... "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black."

This looks interesting... My Completionist to be is coming close to it's paladin life, and Paladin is the class that I've been dreading the most. (and Monk I don't wanna give up Stability! Although thinking about it, I guess Paladin's Cha bonus to saves is kinda like stability.)


Please let us know if you do make any videos of it in action. I actually have checked out your Levelling guide videos and would like to see more...

[Laeelin]

Please let us know if you do make any videos of it in action. I actually have checked out your Levelling guide videos and would like to see more...

There is a video for this build, just at 20, not at cap yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9WQRWarPJI

[Symerith]

Curse you Symerith for making me rethink my decision to roll up a 15/3/2 Pally/monk/fighter.

So compared to the above you essentially give up the THF line for a ranged damage option.

Haha, sorry for giving you a headache

I'm not sure which concept of the 15/3/2 you are mentionning.

Basically, for today's endgame content, having great saves & PRR is a priority. Same with healing as long as you focus on soloing/shortmanning, which is my case, and you can't really expect someone to heal you when EE mobs take you down within a few seconds if you aren't careful. Going THF means you can fit in enough feats for self healing (quicken + empower healing) and the burst DPS (keep in mind this is not only a great way to start your Blitz, but it's also a great burst DPS addition).
The split you chose depends on if you have the completionist feat available to you or not (if you don't, 15 paladin 3 ranger 2 monk is better).

It's very important that people understand the concept behind the builds, and I really try to explain it at the beginning of my build posts. I didn't come up with the split or idea like that, and the build wouldn't be as good if the endgame was different.
You see, highly survivable melee builds are better today then maxed DPS ones, and the idea is to make a build that combines great sustainable and burst DPS with awesome self healing with great saves/PRR to back him up.

Too many people don't understand the notion of a build concept. Endgame players come up with builds for a reason.
Today's endgame needs:
- Defenses: PRR/Saves
- Self healing
- Burst DPS
And the pyrene & all it's possible variants meet these requirements.
Some people will say such builds are OP, but in truth, they aren't. They are just more viable than others for a specific endgame.

If you remember the times with "auto-crit", endgame was about:
- reaching the DC for mass hold
- maximizing crit damage (seeker, specific weapons such as high crit multiplier profile weapons such as G-axe or heavy picks)
- getting enough to-hit
In that time, a build like the pyrene would have been terrible, and a barbarian would have been one of the most "viable" builds.

But endgame changes, and so do the builds and the concepts behind them.

Hope that clarifies the pyrene and it's concept.

[Symerith]

As Henry Ford said... "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black."

This looks interesting... My Completionist to be is coming close to it's paladin life, and Paladin is the class that I've been dreading the most. (and Monk I don't wanna give up Stability! Although thinking about it, I guess Paladin's Cha bonus to saves is kinda like stability.)


Please let us know if you do make any videos of it in action. I actually have checked out your Levelling guide videos and would like to see more...

Haha, nice catch

As promised, I will make more videos at 25, as it's much better than I had anticipated (at least for my particular playstyle ^^).

[nni]

The build I was referring to was a 15/3/2 Pally/monk/fighter. Full THF line and all the non-ranged feats you have here. That build has a couple of "spare" feats, that can go into extend, Magical training or something more situational. Also HotD for the heal amp.

[Azaghan]

Hey, nice build, looks pretty solid.

Currently I am playing a H-Orc 12 FvS/6 Ranger/2 Monk. I have 36 pt build (2 Barb PLs), full twists and all high-end gear (Cleaver, Pinion, Black Helm & Armor etc). The build accomplishes everything I need right now:

High melee DPS (I run LD w Sense Weakness, Brace, Cocoon or Fury w Momentum Swing, Brace, Cocoon)
High Saves + Evasion (About 55,52,46), Furyshot in raids, and top self-healing (Quickened Heal + Cocoon)

Now the only thing bothering me is the stupid FvS icon appearing next to my name and the conception that I am a party healer. I was contemplating some kind of Paladin build lately and your split looks ideal. I will have the same feats (but will have to pick Manyshot manually so I ll drop Epic Toughness) and I ll gain:

More HP (especially with DoS)
More melee DPS (Zeal, Divine Might, Smite + Adrenaline)
Moaar saves (70+,60+,50+) + Evasion

The only factor I am considering is the difference in self-healing. I currently use mostly cocoon and Heal only in emergency situations. However I am used to this nice panic button (Heal). I even sometives let myself become extremely swarmed by mobs and start cleaving, and pop a Heal when I am really low to speed thing up.

However I believe that with five charges (in DoS) of "panic button" LoH, Cocoon and CMW I will be more than OK.

Considering that I will be a Horc with less heal-amp than human (only 30% Bracers atm, however I wear Gloves of Immortality with 120 devotion and sup.healing lore) do you suggest going DoS or HoD? (for the extra amp)

Do you think the Horc approach will be equally effective? (I will have +4 melee damage, +6 PA damage, +3 boosts, however 1 less feat, less amp, no double boosting)?

Thanks for your input

[Purkilius]

Haha, sorry for giving you a headache

I'm not sure which concept of the 15/3/2 you are mentionning.

Basically, for today's endgame content, having great saves & PRR is a priority. Same with healing as long as you focus on soloing/shortmanning, which is my case, and you can't really expect someone to heal you when EE mobs take you down within a few seconds if you aren't careful. Going THF means you can fit in enough feats for self healing (quicken + empower healing) and the burst DPS (keep in mind this is not only a great way to start your Blitz, but it's also a great burst DPS addition).
The split you chose depends on if you have the completionist feat available to you or not (if you don't, 15 paladin 3 ranger 2 monk is better).

It's very important that people understand the concept behind the builds, and I really try to explain it at the beginning of my build posts. I didn't come up with the split or idea like that, and the build wouldn't be as good if the endgame was different.
You see, highly survivable melee builds are better today then maxed DPS ones, and the idea is to make a build that combines great sustainable and burst DPS with awesome self healing with great saves/PRR to back him up.

Too many people don't understand the notion of a build concept. Endgame players come up with builds for a reason.
Today's endgame needs:
- Defenses: PRR/Saves
- Self healing
- Burst DPS
And the pyrene & all it's possible variants meet these requirements.
Some people will say such builds are OP, but in truth, they aren't. They are just more viable than others for a specific endgame.

If you remember the times with "auto-crit", endgame was about:
- reaching the DC for mass hold
- maximizing crit damage (seeker, specific weapons such as high crit multiplier profile weapons such as G-axe or heavy picks)
- getting enough to-hit
In that time, a build like the pyrene would have been terrible, and a barbarian would have been one of the most "viable" builds.

But endgame changes, and so do the builds and the concepts behind them.

Hope that clarifies the pyrene and it's concept.

Well said