Aren't artificers a bit over-powered?

[Sonos]

Sorcs are more powerful from the start than artificers,
Nukes - outperformed by sorcs from level 1+
.

? Um no.

Arti's instakill everything at low level, so this statement is specious at best.

[FooWonk]

Artificer compared to...

other arcane casters:
v. Sorcerer...sorcerer wins because more caster DPS.
v. Wizard...wizard wins because more caster DPS, better caster CC, more versatile caster.
v. Druid...druid wins because better CC, more caster DPS.
v. Bard...bard wins because better CC, better buffs.

healing classes:
v. Cleric...cleric wins because of aura, mass heal and radiant burst.
v. Favored Soul...favored soul wins because of mass heal, free CLW & more SP.
v. Druid...druid wins because of regen, vigor, resurgence & heal.
v. Bard...bard wins as Mass CMW has a shorter cooldown and heals more HP.

DPS classes:
v. Barbarian...barbarian wins because they bring moar DPS for equal gear & feats!!!
v. Rogue...rogue wins because sneak attack dice + assassinate.
v. Monk...monk wins because of flurry of blows, ki attacks, stuns & higher base damage.
v. Fighter...fighter wins because more feats and moar DPS for equal gear & feats!
v. Ranger...tempest II still wins.
v. Paladin...a well played pally wins, otherwise pally loses.
v. Bard...ties

other versatile classes:
v. Bard...artificer wins because of trap skills & no alignment restrictions.
v. Rogue...artificer wins because of spells.
v. Multiclass...artificer loses to many

[Zachski]

Artys are a lot more SP efficient than Sorcs, though, in the earlier levels. I think we can agree on that :P

[Sonos]

Artificer compared to...

other arcane casters:
v. Sorcerer...sorcerer wins because more caster DPS.
v. Wizard...wizard wins because more caster DPS, better caster CC, more versatile caster.
v. Druid...druid wins because better CC, more caster DPS.
v. Bard...bard wins because better CC, better buffs.

healing classes:
v. Cleric...cleric wins because of aura, mass heal and radiant burst.
v. Favored Soul...favored soul wins because of mass heal, free CLW & more SP.
v. Druid...druid wins because of regen, vigor, resurgence & heal.
v. Bard...bard wins as Mass CMW has a shorter cooldown and heals more HP.

DPS classes:
v. Barbarian...barbarian wins because they bring moar DPS for equal gear & feats!!!
v. Rogue...rogue wins because sneak attack dice + assassinate.
v. Monk...monk wins because of flurry of blows, ki attacks, stuns & higher base damage.
v. Fighter...fighter wins because more feats and moar DPS for equal gear & feats!
v. Ranger...tempest II still wins.
v. Paladin...a well played pally wins, otherwise pally loses.
v. Bard...ties

other versatile classes:
v. Bard...artificer wins because of trap skills & no alignment restrictions.
v. Rogue...artificer wins because of spells.
v. Multiclass...artificer loses to many

when you say v. you mean PvP? Because if you are talking situationally in quests for example, this skews your findings. Even in PvP this would be off. Also, is this end game? If so it comes out a lot more correct than leveling. Is this soloing or in "balanced" party?

These are very general and broad statements you are making.

[Sonos]

Artys are a lot more SP efficient than Sorcs, though, in the earlier levels. I think we can agree on that :P

by far yeah. lol

[Loriac]

I think some people are seriously underestimating Arti sustained DPS when completely maxed out.

Also, ranged physical dps should never equal melee dps.

That is all.

P.S. Artificer class as a whole is OP, but isnt that what you guys expect? How P2P classes *should* be better?

I ask this in complete seriousness: have you run a pure ranged/caster artificer at level 24/25 in endgame content? Artificer sustained dps from its base class is ok (for ranged), but it lacks burst capability beyond the runearm, which costs a lot of mobility. The real kicker though is the lack of decent EDs to bring the artificer's damage up. Shiradi is often cited as the ranged destiny, but in reality it doesn't have the same potential as LD or FotW do for melee.

On EH content and below, you won't notice the tailing off of dps as everything dies too quickly, but it will be far more noticeable in EE when you'll realise just how much more damage melee brings to the table.

I think what skews peoples' perception is that artificers do well on kill counts because they can get the last shot a lot of the time.

If we're talking pure base classes, at level 25, pretty much any melee (including paladin) will easily outdps a pure artificer. Bards and wizards will have much more reliable cc, whilst wizards and sorcs will completely outdamage the artificer on nukes (esp. in shiradi). The artificer can scroll heal but isn't a true healer as they can't quickly deal with spike damage. What you end up with is a true jack of all trades, but the problem in EE is that you typically need each party member to contribute at the best levels for their specialisms. The arty has two basic areas that they can do this: weapon buffs, and trapskills. That isn't particularly overpowered in my book.

? Um no.

Arti's instakill everything at low level, so this statement is specious at best.

And you think sorcs don't? Niacs is basically a one-shot kill on everything short of rednames at low level if you build your sorc correctly. The artificer will typically require 2-3 volleys to match a single niacs (insightful damage doesn't kick in until level 6).

[Orratti]

I'm just going off of observation from running with a few but my answer is no. They are as capable as many other classes/builds but not op. If I were going to say one class is op it would be monks, not that I want to see them nerfed. I do wish often while watching them dissappear off into the distance to kill everything that I could hit them with crippling effects.

[Viconiax]

Another thread that is called for nerf...

Time to move on.

[Deathdefy]

There aren't an abundance of EE solo completions by an artificer (non-juggernaut) on the forums. Having said that, I know one (albeit with a 2 paladin / 2 monk split... but he really is purely ranged) that has soloed EE GH (excluding Tor + FoT to my knowledge) at least once.

Point being, I don't think they're great at endgame. I know they can be viable in the sense of able to contribute, but like someone else already mentioned, they don't have the DCs to do much in EE GH. Tac Det will be totally unreliable, and BB kiting is a tool for soloing not contributing in a group. So, they're left with reasonable constant dps from rune arm and a few fusillades. Oh and Prismatic Strike for funzies. Myeh.

I really, really like artificers. The idea of a ranged character that can cast non-trivial spells is awesome, and they are very enjoyable from level 1 through EH, but they just don't hold up super well at cap.

That said, until level ~10 or so, they are easily the most OP class imo. Sorcs definitely become 'better' (i.e. can steamroll the heroic elite content slightly more quickly) at some point in the 8 - 12 range, but the idea a sorc can compete with Flame Turret + Insightful Damage at level 7 or pure repeater damage before that is ludicrous to me.

Oh, incidentally, I'm on board with Fran's assessment that wraps are better than carnifex if you have monk levels.

/manyOpinionsAndLittleContent

[HungarianRhapsody]

My 20 copper - Artificers are WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY overpowered at low levels. Everything else is only slightly less overpowered at low levels, so that really doesn't matter.

At mid levels, they're fairly annoying to play.

Once you get Blade Barrier, it's a cakewalk again until 20. Because Blade Barrier makes everything a cakewalk no matter what class you are. So do Firewall and Ice Storm and a variety of other spells.

Once you're Epic, they're great on EN and EH. Because everything is great on EN and EH. And on EE, they're not bad, but their not on the absolute top tier of character builds.

[Wulverine]

I ask this in complete seriousness: have you run a pure ranged/caster artificer at level 24/25 in endgame content?

My main is currently a completionist ranged dps Arti with max destinies. I didnt plan to be an Arti but i liked the class and decided to try it out for a while as a completionist. I will probably soon TR again and settle on something else, although i might try a Juggernaut. I have solo'd tons of EE content with him. Originally planned to be in Shadowdancer, I found the dps it added to be very small, but very nice defensewise. Draconic sucked for me, you should just twist in energy burst. While the base dps that shiradi adds to a xbow through procs is small compared to destinies such as fury or dreadnaught, Pin and Whistler adds tons of dps alone (depending on party, but absolutely amazing when soloing).

And yes, i know, burst single target dps is nothing compared to something like a fury manyshot. But then what is?
How much sustained dps would a Fury STR based (non manyshot) bard do? Fury monk? Fury pally? Care to make a ballpark guess? How many thousands of DPS per second on average?

All im saying is that it's not as bad as some people seem to think it is, *if* you build and play for dps. But then when I see Arti's running around and even completely forgetting they have a runearm, I understand why arti's have that image. Kind of the same feeling i get when i see (dark) monks with full Ki bars all the time.

Lazy players can make anything look bad.

[Loriac]

My main is currently a completionist ranged dps Arti with max destinies. I didnt plan to be an Arti but i liked the class and decided to try it out for a while as a completionist. I will probably soon TR again and settle on something else, although i might try a Juggernaut. I have solo'd tons of EE content with him. Originally planned to be in Shadowdancer, I found the dps it added to be very small, but very nice defensewise. Draconic sucked for me, you should just twist in energy burst. While the base dps that shiradi adds to a xbow through procs is small compared to destinies such as fury or dreadnaught, Pin and Whistler adds tons of dps alone (depending on party, but absolutely amazing when soloing).

And yes, i know, burst single target dps is nothing compared to something like a fury manyshot. But then what is?
How much sustained dps would a Fury STR based (non manyshot) bard do? Fury monk? Fury pally? Care to make a ballpark guess? How many thousands of DPS per second on average?

All im saying is that it's not as bad as some people seem to think it is, *if* you build and play for dps. But then when I see Arti's running around and even completely forgetting they have a runearm, I understand why arti's have that image. Kind of the same feeling i get when i see (dark) monks with full Ki bars all the time.

Lazy players can make anything look bad.

I'm currently playing a juggernaut build (non-completionist) and my last life was a capped pure ranged/caster arty. I completely agree with you re: use of runearms and other class features - pure artys that don't use runearms are wasting a huge perk of the class. What I'm finding now that I've capped the juggernaut is that the difference in damage is huge - whilst I don't have the 2-3k every 6 seconds from the runearm, the basic melee damage makes up for this, and the gains in mobility are huge (this was actually the thing I disliked the most about the arty - the run speed is horrible when you're actively using the runearm).

Once you factor in fury (or blitz), the melee builds pull so far ahead of the ranged arty that its like night and day. Sure you can pin and otto's, both excellent abilities in shiradi, but they pale in comparision to overwhelming force. Meanwhile, manyshot + fury is extremely high burst damage.

I would guess that my damage is roughly doubled under a fury manyshot burst than when using melee weapons. In fairness, its a difficult comparison to make, because typically you'll use adrenaline + melee on trash, which non-manyshot toons can do just as effectively. Under these circumstances, you'll get the helpless status condition applied which brings damage up vs. that trash. I tend to reserve manyshot + fury for boss fights. In those situations you don't get the helpless status applied, so whilst you're firing 4 arrows per shot, they don't get the +80% damage they would on trash.

Even when I don't use manyshot, the juggernaut is doing more damage than he was as a pure arty (from all sources combined). With manyshot, the burst damage is excellent for when its needed, and exceeds any capability that the pure arty had in that area.

[samthedagger]

At endgame (talking EE, CitW, and FoT), my guild rarely takes more than one arti in the group. It is a little more useful in FoT than other stuff, but that is the exception to the rule. Well-built monkchers and AM WF or PM wizzies in Shiradi are better in almost every situation. Artis are really easy to level, but so is everything these days if you know what you are doing. Arti just makes it a touch easier. Honestly though, I'd rather have a 25 ranger in Shiradi than a 25 Arti in Shiradi. If they ever come out with an arti destiny, that might change. For for right now they are kind of medium for epic. My guild has been running EE with mostly wiz shiradi, ranger shiradi, monkcher, and sometimes a divine (for those Oh Sh--! moments) to farm for items and ingredients.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Artys are a lot more SP efficient than Sorcs, though, in the earlier levels. I think we can agree on that :P

at very low levels a sorc casts 2 spells, masters touch and expeditious retreat.

By level 5 they have over 1000 sp.

I don't get the comparison.

[Sonos]

And you think sorcs don't? Niacs is basically a one-shot kill on everything short of rednames at low level if you build your sorc correctly. The artificer will typically require 2-3 volleys to match a single niacs (insightful damage doesn't kick in until level 6).

I didn't say that sorcs don't. I've capped 3 sorc lives and 2 Arti lives, I'm not pulling this out of thin air. 2-3 volleys? Are you using some +1 Xbow of nothingness? ONE left-click, dead.

Niac's is awesome except for the occasional save. The xbow requires very little SP, buff and shoot. I know that I was able to solo Tear Elite and Gwylan's Elite, getting ALL optionals, something my sorcs are just not capable of(all optionals, traps(I know some Sorcs that do, but we are talking pure class), runes, etc.). Only brought the dog out for STR lever.

Saying that Sorcs are more powerful than Arti's at low levels is just not true. Nor am I saying that the opposite is necessarily true either but I'd lean towards Arti on the principle of dmg vs. resources alone, earlier persistent AoE, etc.

[Loriac]

I didn't say that sorcs don't. I've capped 3 sorc lives and 2 Arti lives, I'm not pulling this out of thin air. 2-3 volleys? Are you using some +1 Xbow of nothingness? ONE left-click, dead.

Niac's is awesome except for the occasional save. The xbow requires very little SP, buff and shoot. I know that I was able to solo Tear Elite and Gwylan's Elite, getting ALL optionals, something my sorcs are just not capable of(all optionals, traps(I know some Sorcs that do, but we are talking pure class), runes, etc.). Only brought the dog out for STR lever.

Saying that Sorcs are more powerful than Arti's at low levels is just not true. Nor am I saying that the opposite is necessarily true either but I'd lean towards Arti on the principle of dmg vs. resources alone, earlier persistent AoE, etc.

I've also capped 3 sorc lives (for the +3 to evoc dc's) and have run a pure ranged/caster arti to cap twice. My view is that the sorc was more powerful, but lacked some of the general purpose utility that the arty had (in particular, trapskills).

Specifically on niacs: the normal, 4sp version, of niacs will one shot normal trash and a lot of oranges. A maximised niacs will one-shot most oranges (I recall hitting ogres in the WW quests for 200-250 damage on niacs at around level 4 or 5).

Meanwhile, a bleeding of screaming xbow will typically match the normal niacs on a volley, whilst it will take 2-3 volleys to equal a maximised version.

As someone noted earlier, a sorc can and probably should just use a greatax and master's touch for early levels, so sp is rarely an issue.

Your point about being able to solo Tear because your pet could get the str lever, you could get Int, and probably a hire get wis, isn't a demonstration of raw power of the class in my view, simply its broad utility.

The reason I think the sorc is more powerful at low levels is that it can one shot trash just as easily as the arty can, and has much more burst damage vs. boss type mobs.

My experience of artys is that they do solid consistent damage. At low levels, that damage will one-shot trash, at high levels it falls behind other classes. The one key area of weakness that I found however was the lack of burst damage vs. bosses.

And my most recent experience of levelling up, with my juggernaut, has shown me just how easy it is to be completely overpowered at low levels. There is no point whatsoever in basing any class balancing around these levels because they are gone very quickly and present no challenge to any experienced player. The juggernaut at low levels is arguably an extremely underpowered build - you're relying on strength, power attack, cleave and great cleave for all your damage, with virtually nothing coming from class features until much later. Even then, mowing through mobs on elite is barely challenging.

[Zachski]

at very low levels a sorc casts 2 spells, masters touch and expeditious retreat.

By level 5 they have over 1000 sp.

I don't get the comparison.

An Artificer casts one spell, Conjure Bolts.

That spell lasts them for almost the entirety of Korthos. 10 SP used, but the Artificer benefits from its effects for ten dungeons.

Also, Master's Touch is likely to get your squishy little dude killed (and I hate its use for wizards and sorcerers, especially since it's not necessary anymore) even with Expeditious Retreat. Artificers get to sit back safely from the fangs and such and shoot down anyone who tries to get close to them.

[keveniaftw]

I've also capped 3 sorc lives (for the +3 to evoc dc's) and have run a pure ranged/caster arti to cap twice. My view is that the sorc was more powerful, but lacked some of the general purpose utility that the arty had (in particular, trapskills).

Specifically on niacs: the normal, 4sp version, of niacs will one shot normal trash and a lot of oranges. A maximised niacs will one-shot most oranges (I recall hitting ogres in the WW quests for 200-250 damage on niacs at around level 4 or 5).

Meanwhile, a bleeding of screaming xbow will typically match the normal niacs on a volley, whilst it will take 2-3 volleys to equal a maximised version.

As someone noted earlier, a sorc can and probably should just use a greatax and master's touch for early levels, so sp is rarely an issue.

Your point about being able to solo Tear because your pet could get the str lever, you could get Int, and probably a hire get wis, isn't a demonstration of raw power of the class in my view, simply its broad utility.

The reason I think the sorc is more powerful at low levels is that it can one shot trash just as easily as the arty can, and has much more burst damage vs. boss type mobs.

My experience of artys is that they do solid consistent damage. At low levels, that damage will one-shot trash, at high levels it falls behind other classes. The one key area of weakness that I found however was the lack of burst damage vs. bosses.

And my most recent experience of levelling up, with my juggernaut, has shown me just how easy it is to be completely overpowered at low levels. There is no point whatsoever in basing any class balancing around these levels because they are gone very quickly and present no challenge to any experienced player. The juggernaut at low levels is arguably an extremely underpowered build - you're relying on strength, power attack, cleave and great cleave for all your damage, with virtually nothing coming from class features until much later. Even then, mowing through mobs on elite is barely challenging.

Niac's cold ray: lvl 1 spell, at lvl 4:
WF sorc (for selfheals): cha: 16 base, 1 lvl up point, +1 item (we're talking bout general here, not top notch 500 PL's cus that would qualify for arti too), +1 tome maybe and +1 enhancements? Assume 20 cha: 5 modifier in this case.

10 + spell level (1) + 5 + 1 feat if u have. If u wanna assume 3 sorc PL's an arti can also assume 3 ranger/monk PL's for +27 damage a shot.
DC: 17 at it's max, meaning even a 0 reflex mob will save it at a 17 roll, assume mobs have 3 reflex, orange nameds have 5 reflex? Maybe 7
Because of that, you need to divide the niacs damage by almost 2 for oranges, and 1.5 for others. Because arti's oneshot trash hat means they are 33% more effective as that is the amount they onehitkill an enemy more while vs orange nameds the arti 3-shots and 'in general' the sorc will 2-shot

These are all raw assumptions, that if niacs would hit 250 at lvl 4 without meta's, which is already an untrue statement to begin with, because that would require (niacs has 50 max damage) 500 cold spell power on a lvl 4, if you are lucky to hit the max * 5... I didn't even see lvl 25's hit that without meta's

I'm getting the idea you have no clue what you're talking about, but I can tell you this:
I duo'd 5/6th (split in the end) life on my TR as sorc with a guildie arti, and until lvl 6ish he was 3 times as useful I was, then he was 1.5 times as useful, and by the time I hit lvl 10-12 I was easily useful, growing more and more useful compared to him at higher lvls

[Sonos]

I've also capped 3 sorc lives (for the +3 to evoc dc's) and have run a pure ranged/caster arti to cap twice. My view is that the sorc was more powerful, but lacked some of the general purpose utility that the arty had (in particular, trapskills).

Specifically on niacs: the normal, 4sp version, of niacs will one shot normal trash and a lot of oranges. A maximised niacs will one-shot most oranges (I recall hitting ogres in the WW quests for 200-250 damage on niacs at around level 4 or 5).

Meanwhile, a bleeding of screaming xbow will typically match the normal niacs on a volley, whilst it will take 2-3 volleys to equal a maximised version.

All that I am saying is that at low levels a sorc is no more powerful than an Arti which you sort of walked back here:

The reason I think the sorc is more powerful at low levels is that it can one shot trash just as easily as the arty can, and has much more burst damage vs. boss type mobs.

The key being just as easily. Except that by the time the boss comes close to the Arti, it's dead. Niac has range sure, but the xbow is continuous dmg. The beauty of the Arti over Sorc at low levels, is the ability to just pew pew with wild abandon, while you may run up to that mob and take a few seconds to hack it down with a Carnifex, it's dead on my screen before it even notices me. (I use the Carnifex as well on my casters but nothing beats one shotting things from afar and not have them touch you hardly at all).

As someone noted earlier, a sorc can and probably should just use a greatax and master's touch for early levels, so sp is rarely an issue.

Your point about being able to solo Tear because your pet could get the str lever, you could get Int, and probably a hire get wis, isn't a demonstration of raw power of the class in my view, simply its broad utility.

When I say that I only brought my dog out for STR, that is exactly what happened. Why on earth would an arti need a hire expecially on a WF? Oh the wis, it's not hard to hit.

My experience of artys is that they do solid consistent damage. At low levels, that damage will one-shot trash, at high levels it falls behind other classes. The one key area of weakness that I found however was the lack of burst damage vs. bosses.

This is exactly what is being said by nearly everyone on the thread. I'm only addressing the issue that you brought up regarding sorcs as somehow more powerful than Arti's at low levels, and I'm sorry, for soloing, the Arti comes out ahead.

And my most recent experience of levelling up, with my juggernaut, has shown me just how easy it is to be completely overpowered at low levels. There is no point whatsoever in basing any class balancing around these levels because they are gone very quickly and present no challenge to any experienced player. The juggernaut at low levels is arguably an extremely underpowered build - you're relying on strength, power attack, cleave and great cleave for all your damage, with virtually nothing coming from class features until much later. Even then, mowing through mobs on elite is barely challenging.

This I agree with, you can make a drow rogue, bard, wizard and make it to level 12 with no problem.

[BlackSteel]

There aren't an abundance of EE solo completions by an artificer (non-juggernaut) on the forums.

I'll agree there's not alot of solo EE from arti's posted on the forums. But I know I havent found it that difficult to solo a majority of the EE content on my arti. I have all of eveningstar and all the walk ups of GH, while having duoed the 3 big quests.

I find that the class to work very very well in EE content. But it is disappointing that even a 1oo% DC focused arti cant really get to the point where the rune arm shows a majority of failed saves for full damage. My iniatal thought with the destinies was to twist in all the +DC stuff. But getting up to a 53 just wasnt worth the investment, so I've since settled down with a different setup. The nice thing tho is that even crits when enemies make the save are fairly decent damage.

If this is an endgame thread, then I dont think its really a class versus class comparison. Its more about the differences between the destinies. VERY VERY FEW things can compare to a Fury+Manyshot combo, a blitz running on full charges, or a shiradi caster with the super buff. Theres nothing else ingame that really has the same oomph as any of those 3.

With that said. Even if blitz or fury played along better with artificers I dont think I could leave shiradi. I just would not be able to give up having Energy Burst + Pin + Whistler + cocoon.

I would like to see more desirable epic moments in quite a few of the destinies. Tea with the Queen on a noncaster is a nice defensive buff, but the best it gets offensively is the +stats. Plus +5 to/hit damage thru stats for five minutes compared to +25o% damage buff that can be kept up indefinitely isnt even in the same ballpark