Aren't artificers a bit over-powered?

[chrisgina39]

They have spell casting, self healing, great party buffs, a companion, trap-finding, bonus feats, are great with repeaters, have a many shot for them too, a heavy spec in UMD, and divines only really good AOE blade barrier.

Now normally i wouldn't complain, but i was playing with a few and seeing the amount of things they have in action and it is sort of making me question if they are not a bit OP i mean i'm not alone right? am i missing something? is there some kind of dark secret that haunts them?

but really they are better jacks of all trades then bards

[Khatzhas]

They have spell casting, self healing, great party buffs, a companion, trap-finding, bonus feats, are great with repeaters, have a many shot for them too, a heavy spec in UMD, and divines only really good AOE blade barrier.

Now normally i wouldn't complain, but i was playing with a few and seeing the amount of things they have in action and it is sort of making me question if they are not a bit OP i mean i'm not alone right? am i missing something? is there some kind of dark secret that haunts them?

but really they are better jacks of all trades then bards

They might be able to compete as the best sustainable ranged DPS, but since there aren't any "pure" ranged DPS classes out there, that isn't really stepping on any toes.
Their spellcasting only goes up to level 6, same as Bards, and their self-healing means that they lose out on real healing and costs a feat. Endless Fusillade is nowhere near as good as Manyshot. They get bonuses to UMDing items, but have less focus on Charisma as a stat. They can take enhancements to boost the damage of Blade Barrier, but can't heighten its saves to the level of a divine caster.

They have a pet, which is useful. They don't have any equivalent of Bardic music, and all of the various abilities, buffs and bonuses from that.

Some things, Artificers can do better than Bards. Some things, Bards can do better than Artificers.
Its rather hard to compare them against each other since there is no agreed weighting of the benefits of one capability against another.

[Bacab]

Fight Club

[chrisgina39]

They might be able to compete as the best sustainable ranged DPS, but since there aren't any "pure" ranged DPS classes out there, that isn't really stepping on any toes.
Their spellcasting only goes up to level 6, same as Bards, and their self-healing means that they lose out on real healing and costs a feat. Endless Fusillade is nowhere near as good as Manyshot. They get bonuses to UMDing items, but have less focus on Charisma as a stat. They can take enhancements to boost the damage of Blade Barrier, but can't heighten its saves to the level of a divine caster.

While they do take a minor penalty to positive energy they get 50%repair which while now great is still pretty good as for blade barrier yes they do miss out on 3 DC but they still get a it and even with enemies saving its damage is nice plus their capstone is comparable to the fvs cap and infinitely better then the cleric cap and true its not as good as many shot but their DPS come out to a bit better then rangers even if they don't have as great burst damage

They have a pet, which is useful. They don't have any equivalent of Bardic music, and all of the various abilities, buffs and bonuses from that.

Some things, Artificers can do better than Bards. Some things, Bards can do better than Artificers.
Its rather hard to compare them against each other since there is no agreed weighting of the benefits of one capability against another.

the buffs artificers have are very nice
think of it this way artificers buff weapon
bards buff attack/damage(or spell casting if spell singer)

either way the buffs on on par with a bards in most situation minus say a spell-caster based party or a boss with very high AC the difference is how versatile Artis are see arti WF juggernuats

also given they get bonus feats the having to spend a feat is sort of contered by that

[ddobard1]

Less skill points and miss important class skills (balance, hide, move silently) than bard.

Only trained in simple weapons.

Bards are much much better at healing fleshies, and fleshies may be 90% of population.

Bards buffs obviously better (displacement, haste, etc.) and songs cant be dispelled!

[lronEnema]

Played one - horribly OP.

Original poster correct.

[EDIT] especially if built as a warforged.

[Lonnbeimnech]

repeater damage doesnt scale well at higher levels.

at low levels you can kill a kobald with 1 bolt, and you hit with 3. That makes them seem extremly powerful.

But once you get to the point that you can't kill 1 mob with 3 bolts you really start to notice the attack rate with the repeater is not good at all, because of the reload time. slow attack speed with mediocre damage means low dps against high hp mobs. You arent going to feel over powered by level 18+. Strong yes, over powered no.

[Bacab]

repeater damage doesnt scale well at higher levels.

at low levels you can kill a kobald with 1 bolt, and you hit with 3. That makes them seem extremly powerful.

But once you get to the point that you can't kill 1 mob with 3 bolts you really start to notice the attack rate with the repeater is not good at all, because of the reload time. slow attack speed with mediocre damage means low dps against high hp mobs. You arent going to feel over powered by level 18+. Strong yes, over powered no.

Yeah....

1-19...Arty is crazy over-powered...

Then at 20-25 Artys are not as good (unless its a Juggernaut)

[Dandonk]

Yeah....

1-19...Arty is crazy over-powered...

Then at 20-25 Artys are not as good (unless its a Juggernaut)

Yes, this. Artis are extremely frontloaded.

[MeliCat]

Are you talking end game or just levelling? My guess is just levelling as from what I've heard the pet is useless end game.

Yes they are awesome levelling and dare I say it maybe yes OP. But then my personal preference is for end game where it takes someone to build, gear and play one well for it to compete with many other classes out there.

I just had great delight in watching a recording where several fairly notorious jugs got outplayed by a bard of all things who almost pulled off the most amazing solo which I would have taken every chance to mention had it worked. Admittedly the bard was Eth and there was a lot if grease involved.

But anyway, no. You could make similar arguments for other classes and builds it's just that there is a popular build going around atm the same way say a monster or exploiter or whatever has gone before.

[MnaSidhe]

Artificers are overpowered at low levels (I was). So much so that my Artificer1/Paladin7 was only ever using his repeater to blow things away.
Later it gets tougher.
But I was still able to get so far that I could TR! FVS are really overpowered!

[voodoogroves]

The Bard / Arti comparison thing is a bit off kilter suffers from (A) the metagame and (B) 4-5 extra feats.

An arti has 5 more feats right off the bat.
An arti loses spell DPS if they splash (invariably dropping BB and strike/det). A bard loses spell DCs (which are already sub-par) and have never had spell DPS.
Bards do not have a reliable full-heal.
Bard songs are still not fully working.
The metagame rewards speed. Arti abilities (aside from the rune-arm) are fast. Bard songs are SLOW.
Bard songs are good buffs that make everyone ELSE wait. Arti's can buff on the run.
Fascinate is some of the best CC in the game, but is not reliable in a group. Enthrall could be better, but the DCs simply are orders of magnitude behind the incoming damage from ED-capable toons.


So

Do not nerf Artificers. They are not a problem.

Do boost some of the others. Fix bard songs and their stacking/overlapping. Expand the range of bard songs (at least for buffs). Make them faster, or make them work if you were in the zone at any time. Boost the check on Enthrall to scale w/ EDs (not a linear check, maybe give it a cap). Consider giving both a pass on glancing blow damage. Give bards more song options.


This works with other classes as well. Rangers don't need a boost by improving Manyshot - Rangers need a boost by giving them things like short-duration buffs to weapon/bow attacks that use SP. Paladins need a boost to Divine Might (duration and casting time) as well as smites (they are gone too quickly, and are too random - they should maybe not even have a crit component, but rather flat damage). If Paladins are supposed to be sturdier innately, give them a bit of PRR or fort or something.

[FranOhmsford]

Artificers are overpowered at low levels (I was). So much so that my Artificer1/Paladin7 was only ever using his repeater to blow things away.
Later it gets tougher.
But I was still able to get so far that I could TR! FVS are really overpowered!

The problem here is not with Artificer per se.

It's with the fact that the Repeater X-Bow even without being feated up for it is INSANE compared to the other choices you have on that build!

It's the same issue with 2 Monk Splash Builds!

As soon as you've got the Handwraps and the FREE fighting style that goes with them of course it becomes irritatingly far better than the weapon you've spent time gearing and building for!
I'm thinking Staff Acrobats here btw - Fully geared and specced for staffs and as soon as I take one level of monk I'm using the d@rn wraps!

2 Levels of Arti gains you Buffs, Light Healing abilities, Hvy Repeater AND the Rune-Arm {I'm sorry but I do feel that the Rune-Arm SHOULD be Class based - like the Dog - NOT Level based!
i.e. an 18/2 Fighter/Arti should NOT be able to use Lucid Dreams or Archaic Device BUT should have to use Thought Spike!
This change alone would help remove Mini-Arti Splashes and push the Deeper Multiclass!

I can't see a way to do this for the Mini-Monk Splash unfortunately other than to move Evasion to Lvl 6 for Monks - Which would be seen as a Massive Nerf by the population at large!
And would also of course just bring the 2 Rogue Splash into more focus! {another Cheese splash}.

BTW...That 2 Rogue Splash could easily be countered Devs by making Traps and Locks over Lvl 10 {Elite} require a minimum of 4 Rogue/Arti Levels to Disable/Open AND Traps/Locks over Lvl 17 {Elite} require at Least 6 Rogue/Arti Levels to Disable/Open!
Knock would need Boosting too obviously! {But then again it already does need Boosting - If only to make the Crystal Cove wands worth getting!}.

Of course this would hit Wiz/Rogues hard BUT then again why should a Virtually Pure Wizard 18/2 be able to get EVERY trap in the game?

I'd suggest on the other hand that Bard/Ranger Levels should Equal Rogue/Arti Levels for this - i.e. a 19 Bard or Ranger / 1 Arti or Rogue could STILL get EVERY TRAP in the game!
BUT ONLY if they've taken at least one Arti or Rogue Level of course!


Oh yes and as we're talking about OP Classes/Builds...

Since I've been playing DDO we've had:

1. WF FavSouls!
2. WF Sorcs/Arch-Mages!
3. Pale Masters! {Many with a 2 Rogue Splash!}
4. Clonks
5. Monkchers!
6. WF Juggernauts are just the Latest alongside Shiradi Sorcs!

Artis are great to play from Lvl 1-16 - I haven't gone any further than this myself so I can't talk about end-game.
I do feel that Druids got the Dev backlash though {along with the Pets which did get heavily nerfed within the first week of Artis being on live!}
Those Pets never did get put back to a reasonable level btw and I'm seeing serious issues with Hirelings too recently!
It might be time for the Devs to do another Hireling pass to correct their UI - AND make sure Arti Dogs and Druid Wolves get corrected at the same time!

[AzB]

The Bard / Arti comparison thing is a bit off kilter suffers from (A) the metagame and (B) 4-5 extra feats.

An arti has 5 more feats right off the bat.
An arti loses spell DPS if they splash (invariably dropping BB and strike/det). A bard loses spell DCs (which are already sub-par) and have never had spell DPS.
Bards do not have a reliable full-heal.
Bard songs are still not fully working.
The metagame rewards speed. Arti abilities (aside from the rune-arm) are fast. Bard songs are SLOW.
Bard songs are good buffs that make everyone ELSE wait. Arti's can buff on the run.
Fascinate is some of the best CC in the game, but is not reliable in a group. Enthrall could be better, but the DCs simply are orders of magnitude behind the incoming damage from ED-capable toons.


So

Do not nerf Artificers. They are not a problem.

Do boost some of the others. Fix bard songs and their stacking/overlapping. Expand the range of bard songs (at least for buffs). Make them faster, or make them work if you were in the zone at any time. Boost the check on Enthrall to scale w/ EDs (not a linear check, maybe give it a cap). Consider giving both a pass on glancing blow damage. Give bards more song options.


This works with other classes as well. Rangers don't need a boost by improving Manyshot - Rangers need a boost by giving them things like short-duration buffs to weapon/bow attacks that use SP. Paladins need a boost to Divine Might (duration and casting time) as well as smites (they are gone too quickly, and are too random - they should maybe not even have a crit component, but rather flat damage). If Paladins are supposed to be sturdier innately, give them a bit of PRR or fort or something.

This man understands. Artis don't need a nerf, the classes that got horribly left behind need to be fixed. Ranger, Pally, and especially Bard.

Play an Arti and watch the melee line up at the start and say "deadly plz". Play a bard and watch everyone run away as you start to play your songs. By the time you're done singing, the monks and wf sorcs are almost done with the quest. Why on earth there's a cooldown on some bard songs, I'll never understand.

+1 rep for you sir!

[ddobard1]

...Play an Arti and watch the melee line up at the start and say "deadly plz". Play a bard and watch everyone run away as you start to play your songs. By the time you're done singing, the monks and wf sorcs are almost done with the quest. Why on earth there's a cooldown on some bard songs, I'll never understand...

this is true


bard and rogue are my favorite but I dont understand why melees run away.... suppose a melee level 8 with a +1 acid greataxe of bleeding.... with inspire courage it becomes a +5 greataxe of bleeding!!

[Karavek]

Man do I need to LOL at this thread and anyone calling Artee or the repeater OP.

These are the 2 things that really scream eberon about our game. Now I am no eberoni fan, but I do like to fit the world I RP in and frankly if you are any kind of adventurer wandering eberon and facing battle you should own, be prof with, and certainly carrying locked and loaded a repeater at all times. IMO its not the tool that is OP but every one choosing not to carry one as their first line of ranged offence before enemies close who are utterly gimp.

This also ahs to do with my big issue with pure fighter and barbs who spec pure melee. its like trying to be bruce lee or musashi miyomoto in a land with assault weapons and high explosives. Its the people trying to push this game as classic sword and sorcery or think such characters should be competetive who are the problem. EVERY fighter should even if going sword and board defender, spec in the feats to use a repeater, and if owning the artee class then 1 or 2 lvls of that splashed in to fit the bill while not hurting their original vision of that classic knight one bit really.

As for trying to ruin this game by removing multi class flexibility by making skills or tools class level dependant I say go to NWO and play 4E. Make my rogues have to be pure to take traps or my monks pure to use handwraps etc effectively and you kill this game for the only kind of player in DDO who matters, the creative open minded modern magic punk player. hidebound archaics belong in the realms to be forgotton to history like the need for dragon riders to defend the skies of pern.

if anything they should go open D20 removing classes and using a character point builder to make even more flexible characters. but then youd have all the hide bound purists whining that their pure so and so was not as good because they overspecialized. Which if you didnt know always breeds cirppling weakness

[CThruTheEgo]

Powerful? Yes.
OVERpowered? No.

They are extremely versatile, but that does not equal overpowered. We are not seeing anyone soloing the most difficult content in the game on an arti (I haven't kept up with juggernaut builds so I don't know if they are or not). Artis can certainly hold their own throughout leveling and at endgame, but they are not as powerful as some other classes.

[voodoogroves]

Powerful? Yes.
OVERpowered? No.

They are extremely versatile, but that does not equal overpowered. We are not seeing anyone soloing the most difficult content in the game on an arti (I haven't kept up with juggernaut builds so I don't know if they are or not). Artis can certainly hold their own throughout leveling and at endgame, but they are not as powerful as some other classes.

They totally are.

That said, they aren't the only ones. Arti is a platform with a few buffs and a one button self heal that a metric ton of optimized gears and EDs are put on top of for those.

Plenty of other folks are soloing EEs too - Light-based divines, shiradis of various types, even defender types.

[Loriac]

As many have said above, artificers are massively front loaded, and at low levels can be powerful.

However, having just levelled up a juggernaut who only used greataxes/falchions during levelling, and with limited self healing during that time (I was mainly using wands / scrolls out of combat as I didn't pick up reconstruct til taking level 20 and I didn't take maximise or empower either so my repair spells weren't hitting for much), i.e. an artificer who was using pretty much none of the special abilities, I can't say I had a terribly hard time just cleaving/great cleaving through mobs.

In other words, for experienced players, I doubt that the class features make that much difference to power during heroic levelling. Low levels are trivial for most well built characters, and even the mid- to high- levels aren't that tough. On my jugg, levels 17 and 18 (which I stayed at until I had the xp for 20) felt the most underpowered vs. the pure artificer I played the previous life, but by that point most other classes have caught up with or surpassed the artificer on the power curve.

Repeater dps seems high when you're low level, but by the time you hit epic content, it really falls away. On my old pure artificer, EH was solo'able, but EE content was too much for the build (i.e. I could contribute, but other classes, particularly melee, were much more powerful).

The runearms too are powerful up to EH content (pretty much one- or two- shotting trash on a full charge) but again fall away on EE content.

The main reason I went juggernaut on my current artificer is that the endgame today is built around dps, and melee (plus fury'd manyshot) is really the optimal way to deliver that damage. A pure artificer cannot compete with melee dps largely because of the lack of any good EDs (probably the closest to a damage destiny for the artificer is FotW, but you lose a lot from not having access to overwhelming force on ranged damage). Its also difficult to reach the DCs required for EE content - up to High Road content you can just about get there if you have 3xSorc PL, 1xWiz PL, and preferably completionist, but hitting the 60+ DCs needed for eGH is a stretch too far with current in-game gear.

TL;DR - artificers are a strong, fun class up to EH content, who gain power quickly at low levels but who are more or less equal to other builds by level 20. For EE content, they don't bring much to the table beyond excellent weapon buffs, unreliable area cc via tactical detonation, and mediocre ranged dps.

[Loriac]

Powerful? Yes.
OVERpowered? No.

They are extremely versatile, but that does not equal overpowered. We are not seeing anyone soloing the most difficult content in the game on an arti (I haven't kept up with juggernaut builds so I don't know if they are or not). Artis can certainly hold their own throughout leveling and at endgame, but they are not as powerful as some other classes.

I wouldn't class a juggernaut as an artificer build in all honesty - its really a self-healing melee dps platform, that in effect uses artificer abilities such as weapon buffs and the PRE to remain competitive with other, purer, melee builds whilst at the same time providing self-healing via reconstruct.

Juggernaut melee dps is demonstrably lower than fighter or barbarian dps, but the versatility of the build more than makes up for the loss of the final few % of damage.

Haek has solo'd EE DA on his juggernaut, and has videos to prove it. But again, I would say that this doesn't demonstrate that pure artificers are capable of solo'ing EE, rather it highlights the reasons why they can't.


Edit - the other day, I played through the High Road chain on EH with a guildie on my juggernaut. I used to think that my old pure artificer build was powerful in such content, but the juggernaut blew it away. It was like I was playing on casual or something, melee capabilities with EDs are simply that good.