The simple crossbows REALLY need to be useful.

[phillymiket]

I think there is a big difference between types of crossbows that were used back in the day.

I doubt the crossbow a wizard would pick up would have a very high draw weight and therefore being pretty weak seems realistic to me.

I don't think the crossbows we use in DDO represent any kind of wench, windlass or rack and pinion type crossbow with a mechanical advantage to compensate for poor strength.

I envision the light and heavy crossbows as simple hand operated machines, so having the base damage be similar to a bow but the rate of fire much less seems realistic to me.

The great crossbow seems like a a siege crossbow or a gastraphetes and should be slow as molasses. You don't really carry these things as a personal to-go arm.

The repeating crossbow is clearly trying to be a a cho-ku-nu, what with the top loading magazine, and by all rights should have less base damage and less range but for the purposes of the game is beefed up uber to make taking the feat worth it.

I'm fine with the way these are used in the game and see no reason to change anything too much.

If people want crossbow feats that would be fine but make me scratch my head as to why you would choose a crossbow to spend feats on rather than a bow that ultimately, after mastering, would be more deadly in the game as it is in real life.
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[ddobard1]

At level 8 I use a longbow however I dont own a decent weapon against earth elemental... but I looted a ML +2 metalline light crossbow and I kept it instead of deconstruct it!

Besides that crossbows are simple weapons.

[Mastikator]

In the above comment, if you trying to imply that a 25-lb pull bow will cause the same damage as a 70-lb pull bow, I'll debate that.

Bow Strength is a feat.
What DDO does is that it gives two men each a 25-lb pull bow, and because the first man is stronger he can pull it as though it were a 70-lb pull bow, completely ignoring the fact that it would snap the bow.
In D&D there were composite bows that could allow strength bonuses up to a point, it wasn't a feat that simply added strength to bows. In DDO they changed it and added a nonsensical solution instead.

[ddobard1]

... If people want crossbow feats that would be fine but make me scratch my head as to why you would choose a crossbow to spend feats on rather than a bow that ultimately, after mastering, would be more deadly in the game as it is in real life.

For instance cleric and favored Soul dont have proficiency in bows neither can cast Master's Touch.

[Charononus]

For instance cleric and favored Soul dont have proficiency in bows neither can cast Master's Touch.

Sure they do silver flame faith

[phillymiket]

For instance cleric and favored Soul dont have proficiency in bows neither can cast Master's Touch.

A cleric or FVS spending feats on crossbows would make me scratch my head.

What could you possibly do with a crossbow on a divine that would be anywhere close to what you could do with your spells or melee weapons even if DDO did introduce feats?

When has there ever been a famous, heroic arbalist in history?

Crossbows were what you gave newbs in your army to use.
.

[Lonnbeimnech]

For instance cleric and favored Soul dont have proficiency in bows neither can cast Master's Touch.

Follower of the Silver Flame

Usage: Passive

Cost: 2 action points

Progression: 0 action points

Requires All of: No Requirements

Available to Paladin, Cleric level 1

+1 To-Hit bonus with Longbows. Active Benefit: expend 1 Turn Undead to gain Tira's Champion that grants proficiency in Longbows to yourself or a friend.

This enhancement automatically grants the following:

SilverFlameExorcism.png
[edit] Tira's Champion

Activate this ability to grant weapon proficiency in Longbows to yourself or a friend until target rests. Consumes a use of Turn Undead. This ability may not be activated until you have gained the Turn Undead ability at Paladin level 4 or Cleric level 1.







BelovedOfSilverFlame.png Favored by the Silver Flame

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Favored Soul (Level 1)

Description

You are a favored soul of the Silver Flame. You are considered proficient with Longbows.

Child of the Silver Flame

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Favored Soul (Level 3), Favored by the Silver Flame

Description

You are a favored soul of the Silver Flame. You have +1 to attack rolls with Longbows.

Beloved of the Silver Flame

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Favored Soul (Level 12), Child of the Silver Flame

Description

You are a favored soul of the Silver Flame. You deal 2 extra damage with Longbows.

[FranOhmsford]

When has there ever been a famous, heroic arbalist in history?

William Tell!

[Lonnbeimnech]

A cleric or FVS spending feats on crossbows would make me scratch my head.

What could you possibly do with a crossbow on a divine that would be anywhere close to what you could do with your spells or melee weapons even if DDO did introduce feats?

When has there ever been a famous, heroic arbalist in history?

Crossbows were what you gave newbs in your army to use.
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell

[phillymiket]

William Tell!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell

I posted that statement will full knowledge that someone would post someone I hadn't thought of and was and am fully prepared to +1 that person.

Yes, very good example and the exception that proves the rule.

But, I still stand by my assertion that crossbows were ideal for their ease of use rather than because they were ideal weapons.

This is represented by the fact that they are simple weapons and a wizard and cleric are able to use them without any specific training and therefore are fine as they stand.

I'm pretty sure a fully trained longbowmen would never choose a crossbow over his longbow, given a choice.
.

[Charononus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell

Yes but he has a point, crossbows were given to conscripted commoners more often than not.

[FranOhmsford]

I posted that statement will full knowledge that someone would post someone I hadn't thought of and was and am fully prepared to +1 that person.

Yes, very good example and the exception that proves the rule.

But, I still stand by my assertion that crossbows were ideal for their ease of use rather than because they were ideal weapons.

This is represented by the fact that they are simple weapons and a wizard and cleric are able to use them without any specific training and therefore are fine as they stand.

I'm pretty sure a fully trained longbowmen would never choose a crossbow over his longbow, given a choice.
.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...4041426AAUKCsV

X-Bows never became big in the British Isles for one very simple reason...

Every man had to train with the Long Bow weekly! From a Very young age!

There was absolutely no need to go about training commoners with the X-Bow!

[phillymiket]

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...4041426AAUKCsV

X-Bows never became big in the British Isles for one very simple reason...

Every man had to train with the Long Bow weekly! From a Very young age!


There was absolutely no need to go about training commoners with the X-Bow!

Everything changed when the Black Death attacked.

I'm no historian (even though that won't stop me pretending I am) but I'm pretty sure crossbows were around when longbows were being used and even before.

My understanding is that crossbows took over after the black plague when the feudal system began to break down and a lord could no longer demand longbow training from peasants, who were gaining wealth and power, so they switched to crossbows that could be taught quickly to a paid army slapped together with whatever people you had left alive after the plague.

There may still have been laws but the peasant worker was in high demand after half the folks dropped dead and a lord could not enforce longbow training like they could before and began to have to <gasp> pay people to do stuff.
.

[FranOhmsford]

Everything changed when the Black Death attacked.

I'm no historian (even though that won't stop me pretending I am) but I'm pretty sure crossbows were around when longbows were being used and even before.

My understanding is that crossbows took over after the black plague when the feudal system began to break down and a lord could no longer demand longbow training from peasants, who were gaining wealth and power, so they switched to crossbows that could be taught quickly to a paid army slapped together with whatever people you had left alive after the plague.
.

Assuming here you're talking about the Black Death - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death 1348-1350

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt October 1415!

65 Years Later!

The X-Bow did replace the Longbow on Mainland Europe {Especially in Switzerland and Italy}!
BUT Never gained Purchase in the British Isles!

It was the Matchlock Guns that eventually forced the Longbow out of contention over here.

[phillymiket]

Assuming here you're talking about the Black Death - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death 1348-1350

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt October 1415!

65 Years Later!

The X-Bow did replace the Longbow on Mainland Europe {Especially in Switzerland and Italy}!
BUT Never gained Purchase in the British Isles!

It was the Matchlock Guns that eventually forced the Longbow out of contention over here.

If you think I'm going to stop posting just because I'm wrong then you are sadly mistaken.

I counter with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au3DBVo1EqM
.

[bartharok]

And another +1 to this. Shorter range but more close-up damage (and I'd argue, accuracy) versus less effectiveness at longer range - again perhaps would have to apply to all crossbows, which wouldn't do anything in itself to close the gap between repeaters and non-repeaters.

The less effective at long range, WOULD in this scenario carry over to repeaters, with a vengeance, since you wouldnt actually have time to aim the bolts. The effectiveness at short range wouldnt increase, if youre being realistic, since they would have to have less pounds of pull to be able to be reloaded so fast.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I totally agree that Crossbows need to be useful.

I have pulled several with abilities that wold be considered the best of the best, if they had dropped on a Kopesh.... yet on a crossbow they just become vender trash.


... and every class needs a useful ranged option. Many can only use crossbows.

D&D has struggled with crossbows since the beginnings of the game.

The Crossbow was a very deadly weapon in history, yet in D&D and DDO it is just about useless. (more so in DDO)


Problem is.. any change would also include repeating crossbows.... which in capable hands (Arty, Mechanic) are very deadly.


Anyway, my argument for years now is that ranged combat need to be sped up for everybody.
although Artificers kinda messed up that idea....


Not sure what they should do to get them right though.... more damage maybe... higher crit chance.... or maybe a way higher crit multiplyer?

Biggest problem is any change like that will get the repeater lovers insisting that it should work th esame way for repeaters.

I'm kinda a believer that historically the repeating crossbow was not very effective....
lighter ammo maybe? Less accurate? Not sure why...

I think regular crossbows should have real high crit multiplers..... based on greater pull and accuracy then repeaters....