CONFIRMED: Arcane Spell Failure change!

[Andrash]

I eventually realized I can test ASF(arcane spell failure) on scrolls.

Test subject: artificer battle engineer(-10 asf) with Seven fingered gloves (-10 asf), lesser arcane sigil+arcane sigil (-5 and -10 asf respectively) Dragontouched docent.

"Item Enhancements

Item enhancements do not stack unless otherwise noted. Only the highest reduction will apply.

The Lesser Arcane Casting Dexterity/Arcane Casting Dexterity prefix reduces ASF by 5%/10%. Arcane Casting Dexterity reduces total ASF, and as such can be on any item rather than needing to be on the armor or shield that's causing ASF.
A Sapphire of Spell Agility +5/+10/+15 in a Blue Augment Slot reduces ASF by 5%/10%/15%. This reduces total ASF, and as such can be on any item rather than needing to be on the armor or shield that's causing ASF.
Twilight reduces ASF by 10%, and Greater Twilight reduces ASF by 20%. Twilight affects the armor or shield it is on only, however.
Lesser Arcane Sigil and Arcane Sigil are normally docent-exclusive enhancements, but can be added to Dragontouched Armor via the appropriate runes. They reduce ASF by 5% and 10% respectively. LAS/AS are typed differently and will stack with normal item enhancement effects and with each other. "

(http://ddowiki.com/page/Arcane_spell_failure)

PRE u17: This meant -35% asf reduction.
EDIT: as later post claims it should have only meant 25% reduction on my test subject due to Battle engineer not working for warforged.

After u 17: every spell failure reduction is considered enhancement type, and DO NOT stack with each other.
My artificer with the above gear/enhancement line had 25% spell failure on the wizard scroll:shield.
Now unless scrolls work differently than spells we can assume the ASF reduction items now exclude each other.

Please Devs or PR team give us the reason behind this change. Or Test and see for yourself. My guess is you redefined ASF based on the augment crystals. And now every 5,10,15 % reduction is considered the same type.

[Lyria]

Please Devs or PR team give us the reason behind this change. Or Test and see for yourself. My guess is you redefined ASF based on the augment crystals. And now every 5,10,15 % reduction is considered the same type.

Either that or it was similar to the double-stacking reflex saves before: a bug that they didn't quite catch until now. I'm not sure if it was "redefined based on augments" so much as "oh hey guys, these are classified as an 'untyped' (ie stacking) buff, shouldn't they be enhancements, like other stuff is?"

Who knows, though.

[legendlore]

Test subject: artificer battle engineer(-10 asf) with Seven fingered gloves (-10 asf), lesser arcane sigil+arcane sigil (-5 and -10 asf respectively) Dragontouched docent.

/../

PRE u17: This meant -35% asf reduction.

No it didn't, it was 25% asf reduction, Battle engineer didn't reduce the asf of docents only armor (and for clarity; not shields either).

After u 17: every spell failure reduction is considered enhancement type, and DO NOT stack with each other.
My artificer with the above gear/enhancement line had 25% spell failure on the wizard scroll:shield.
Now unless scrolls work differently than spells we can assume the ASF reduction items now exclude each other.

Just tested my elf with blue crystal, battle engineer and arcane fluidity, they all stacked just like they used to. Also bought a twilight item just to test and it still stacked as well.

[scoobmx]

Battle engineer doesn't work for warforged. Hence your 10% discrepancy.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Yes, I've been watching my ASFs. They have been much more frequent than previous.

I almost never suffered them, now they're very frequent.

Either they've fixed things or broken them. Or both, as usual.

[Andrash]

No it didn't, it was 25% asf reduction, Battle engineer didn't reduce the asf of docents only armor (and for clarity; not shields either).


Just tested my elf with blue crystal, battle engineer and arcane fluidity, they all stacked just like they used to. Also bought a twilight item just to test and it still stacked as well.

I did not test twilight items, but fyi arcane sigil, lesser arcane sigil and seven fingered gloves are claimed to be stacking in many earlier forum topics along with ddowiki.

Thus since adamantine body is 35%, do the math. It still shud be as low as 10% (35-10-10-5) asf from 35% (I thought 0% presmuning Bengineer stacked, which it turned out it did not) .

[Andrash]

Battle engineer doesn't work for warforged. Hence your 10% discrepancy.

See my earlier post.
That 10% not working for arties still should make seven fingered and arcane sigil stack. Aka the reduction should be 10% from 35% if not 0% from 35%.

[chanw4]

See my earlier post.
That 10% not working for arties still should make seven fingered and arcane sigil stack. Aka the reduction should be 10% from 35% if not 0% from 35%.

seven fingerd gloves (10%) + LAS (5%) + AS (10%) = -25%.

EDIT: Are you using any kind of shield or equipment that +ASF?

[Jay203]

errr...
i'm assuming you're in addy body and not using shield right?

[Andrash]

errr...
i'm assuming you're in addy body and not using shield right?

Yes adamantine body without any shield. A dt docent with both lesser arcane sigil and arcane sigil with seven fingered gloves reduce my base 35% asf to 25% only. Used a scroll so it might be only bugged for scrolls, but combat log lists all three effects as not stacking. so I only get a 10% reduction.

Test it for yourself.

[Derailment]

Sounds like a bug fix. Arcane Sigil looks like special docent version of Arcane Casting Dexterity.

(Also always lol'd from their descriptions - reducing failure chance by -10% means increasing it by 10% )

[Andrash]

Sounds like a bug fix. Arcane Sigil looks like special docent version of Arcane Casting Dexterity.

(Also always lol'd from their descriptions - reducing failure chance by -10% means increasing it by 10% )

LOL on the second statement, ARRRGH! on the first one.
So I guess twilight and greater twilight shud not stack either with the gloves:P

[Andrash]

Okay folks just to make this clear, I am talking about arcane sigil, lesser arcane sigil and arcane casting dexterity here, aka warforged spell failure.

Twilight properties do not reduce your GLOBAL asf, rather it subtract's your armor1s /shield's asf by the listed value.
Which means if you wear a mithral light shield with 0% asf then add greater twilight, you cannot wear a mithral full plate in the hopes of getting only 5% ASF, aka twilight is a local-on-item buff.

However it seems to be that arcane sigil/lesser arcane sigil has been changed to be global asf reduction which would mean a composite body wf wizard could carry a 10% asf shield with an arcane sigil docent with the latter nullifying the previous sepll failure.
Ergo----->>> IT IS a bug.

[chanw4]

LOL on the second statement, ARRRGH! on the first one.
So I guess twilight and greater twilight shud not stack either with the gloves:P

I thought Twilight and Greater Twilight works differently thaat they do not reduce the global ASF but the ASF of the said item only.

So a Greater Twilight Mithril Chainmail + Light shield will have 5% ASF
a Greater Twilight Mithril Leather Armor + Light shield will also have 5% ASF

[chanw4]

Okay folks just to make this clear, I am talking about arcane sigil, lesser arcane sigil and arcane casting dexterity here, aka warforged spell failure.

Twilight properties does not reduce your GLOBAL asf, rather it subtract's your armor1s /shield's asf by the listed value.
Which means if you wear a mithral light shield with 0% asf then add greater twilight, you cannot wear a mithral full plate in the hopes of getting only 5% ASF, aka twilight is a local-on-item buff.

However it seems to be that arcane sigil/lesser arcane sigil has been changed to be global asf reduction which would mean a composite body wf wizard could carry a 10% asf shield with an arcane sigil docent with the latter nullifying the previous sepll failure.
Ergo----->>> IT IS a bug.

It depends on whether the stacking of reduce ASF on LAS, AS and other item enchantment a bug.

[Andrash]

It depends on whether the stacking of reduce ASF on LAS, AS and other item enchantment a bug.

Arcane sigil is specifically inscribed runes and thus body-buff for warforged. It should only affect the spell failure coming from a warforged's phsyical build-up. Whether arcane sigil should still stack with lesser arcane sigil is a matter of taste and/or Dragontouched Docent nerfing:P

Arcane casting dexterity however on seven fingered gloves (ie.) is a special property that allows you to shape your somatic components more effectively even if you are hindered by something else, aka. it should stack (and many forums along with ddowiki say they stack) with (greater) twilight and arcane sigil.

Problem is: Arcane sigil was made into GLOBAL enhancement type ASF reduction. Check the combat-log tab to see it for yourself. Arcane sigil should work like twilight/greater twilight properties, as an ON_ITEM effect. It should NOT be GLOBAL.

In pnp dnd it is impossible to make adamantin body wizard without high arcane spell failure rate. Now DDO has not been following pnp eberron in so many aspects that this change, which previously worked in favor of adamantin body arcanes, is not really a little nerf, it is a huge nerf and a potential exploit for warforged, since now you can use arcane sigil with composite body and greater twilight shield to reach -30% asf on that shield.

[Andrash]

Here you can see post u16 notes on the subject.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=316132

At least arcane sigil and arcane casting dexterity should stack if nothing else. Which should be a net 20% asf reduction for adamantin body warforged.

But like I said arcane sigil for some reason was made into "Global enhancement" type reduction.

[legendlore]

I did not test twilight items, but fyi arcane sigil, lesser arcane sigil and seven fingered gloves are claimed to be stacking in many earlier forum topics along with ddowiki.

I've tested & played around quite a lot with asf and it is likely that some of those posts are mine.

The reason I tested twilight etc is that your claim was that;

now every 5,10,15 % reduction is considered the same type.

&

we can assume the ASF reduction items now exclude each other.

which with the thread title made it sound like this was confirmed

Thus since adamantine body is 35%, do the math

I did do the math it is even in the very sentence you quoted

arcane sigil for some reason was made into "Global enhancement" type reduction.

This is far more likely, will test it later as well

[Andrash]

I've tested & played around quite a lot with asf and it is likely that some of those posts are mine.

The reason I tested twilight etc is that your claim was that;

&

which with the thread title made it sound like this was confirmed



I did do the math it is even in the very sentence you quoted



This is far more likely, will test it later as well

Erm, i do have to apologize to you, on those two accounts, you were trying to be fair, and i appreciate that.
I have screenshots on dt docent sigils listed as global enhancement and seven fingered gloves ACD listed as global enhancement, you can check this in general tab, you know those blue letter infoes on log-in/equipping items.
I just got upset because after you, the other commenter literally brutal-force-solved the problem with that "hence there is your 10%". I prefer ppl like you who DO read through and correct people. Indeed my topic title is a bit opportunistic, but you have to understand that after warforged got a little nerf with no more poison/disease immunity I am really angry that Turbine solves a potential issue with DT robe powergaming for fleshies (arcane sigil and lesser arcane sigil with augment 15 could literally make any caster use some powerful tower shields for tanking) by sacraficing warforged ...again.

Hmm twilight as you pointed out in that topic is locally on_item effect, aka it does not give global asf reduction, so you are right. I should have been more precise on that. But im confused now a bit since, this means they revamped ASF into on_item types and global types. Globals will no longer stack but will be applied after all other calculation with armor/shields have been done.

And then people will complain if arcane sigil is made docent only: Now what to do with arcane sigil robes? My guess is this system will stay in palce now for a long time...And I reeeeeally don't like it.