The cry for help

[Aldon76]

I dont know, if everybody ever reads this, its to the devs and some players. I started a bard long time ago. i got a lot of fun, a lot of mischapes, a lot of "why not babarian!!!?" Has been ok.
My choice. could have known better.
But suddenly the game tired me...so i went of, coming back later..now!
They look at my hitpoints (Bard lvl 18 Spellsinger 268) and cry, they dont need me, as they know (really know) bard powers and are 4.-5. generation, And i beg for acompany them. Sometimes i guess i just got an invitete not to be alone, and theres this merly useles bard, whith his 1st edition songs...as i can't handle everything alone. Feeling lonly: bard, useless? Why dont you play a sorc, thameone with real power?" "I got my songs!" Yes, its funny, but you`re useless like scrap, as long as i can solo this adventure...!"

Sorry singing for nothing, (2 SP in 2 secs), CC for nothing as my dc's are a common joke beyond critters, healing for nothing..well there is a big request for clerics/fvs why don't take the bard?

Pls, Pls telll me im not as useless as i feel, Pls!

Tobi

[Dendrix]

Bards are far and away the weakest of all classes.

The only thing they have is enthrall/fascinate.
Those abilities take so long to use on heroic missions the mobs are dead normally before you finishing singing them in groups.
Loads of mobs are immune to the songs - undead, constructs, vermin, red named (which are dancable via otto's)

lower melee damage that all melees (about half at best)
lower spell damage that all spellcasters (avout a tenth)

crappy armour - there is not one single suit of armour in the game that says wear me to a bard.

Spells who's DC's are always worse that equivalent wizards

Songs that take 5-10 times as long to cast as spells, with long animations that cripple your personal DPS

Bugger all bard related special items - where the hell is perform on any end game loot? a skill that is utterly vital to bards. Where are the +17/+20 perform items?

Almost all bard buffs are weakened as generally a 1-2 point worse version can be obtained via easily available clickies, potions or as ship buffs.

[Aldon76]

In other words, im as usful as bard as dirt.

And even the TR feats i get are dirt, compart to a fighter or rogue. if i remember there was "1" quest long time ago i've played in h-phiarlan when my bluffs came in handy.
So why that, do they hate bards? As i love my bard, i love to give them power with my songs, but thats just...imagination, is'nt it?

I won't delete him, but won't play him further either.

Thank you Dendrix for those clear words. Mind sound silly to you, but something just dies.

Tobi

[karl_k0ch]

Bards are far and away the weakest of all classes.

The only thing they have is enthrall/fascinate.

Nope. Not at all. The picture you're painting is so dark because you're only using shades of black.

For instance, a level 8 bard's Insprire Courage adds +4 damage.
This is the same as wearing an Epic Claw set on every melee toon, or a stacking ~ +8 str (THF will get more damage from plain Str, TWF benefits more from bonuses to damage). A level 16 warchanter will offer another +4; a level 20 spellsinger additional +3. The fatesinger destiny can improve this further.

Many Wizards and Sorcs do not have the spell slots for haste and rage; or don't want to spend the feat for Extend. A bard will offer a longer lasting haste and rage than most clickies.

Thanks to spellsong trance, blue bars will last longer and have their DCs raised. Spellsong Vigor's 2 sp per 2 secs over 5 minutes 24 seconds recovers more than 300 SP per song, i.e. roughly a Major Mnem Pot per caster and song.

Epic Feat-wise, Inspire Exellence is just awesome. You will add +2 to all stats of every toon, i.e. almost the same bonus as the completionist feat. +1 Damage, +1 to-hit, +1 to all saves, +20-25 HP, +1 to all DCs and a resulting +1 to all skills.

Bards are great scroll healers, and can surely serve a backup healer, and if they are specced for this, replace a divine.

And re: Fascinate being bad. eg 3 bards with only mediocre equip can do Epics pretty smoothly. Not fast, but in a safe way, thanks to Fascinate and killing the mobs one-by-one. Undead, Constructs and Vermin can be fascinated if you invest in Enhancements, or the Fatesinger Ability, respectively.

[Charononus]

Bards are probably the best cc class in the game, provide buffs you can't get elsewhere (spellsinger), and can provide decent dps if multiclassed. Bards are not weak but not a beginner class either.

[cidchronic]

my spellsinger bard is great, buffs(extend) heals(191 pos Sp/ 2.5xcrit) CC(PL stone) and songs (maxed). if you gear them right and have a good understanding of what the need, they can be a great asset to any group.

bard armor = parasitic breastplate with mania (dance) added

hope this helps, good luck and keep gaming

[Inouk]

I've heard it both ways. Some say they are useless, others that they make EE so much easier. My capped toons are a 12/8 rng/ftr melee and a 20 pale master. A good friend of mine runs a straight bard (spell singer) that I run with all the time, and he's GREAT to short man stuff with. Regardless of which toon I run he gives me great buffs and provides great versatility. On my melee he can heal, crowd control, provide crucial buffs (GH, hage, FoM, Excellence, etc), has d-door, and so on. My only complaints are that bard songs take waaaayyy too long to cast and there are way too many of them (so waiting for buffs can get boring), and he can barely contribute to DPS at all.

My understanding is that in EE fascinate is hands down the best crowd control in the game.

Bottom line, if you enjoy playing your bard then work on getting your HP up (green steel HP item, toughness feat + enhancements, +8 con item, etc) and work through your epic destinies to find what works for you. A bunch are good for bards depending on the flavor you prefer, any of the arcane EDs work well, and really any melee could also work well if you built for it at all. A good argument could be made that it's currently the weakest class, but it certainly isn't without merit or use.

[AzB]

A good argument could be made that it's currently the weakest class, but it certainly isn't without merit or use.

The class is weak, certainly, but what kills it more is twofold:

First, DDO is not roleplaying. It is a combat based video game based on a role playing game. That is not all bad, but it does mean that all toons should be able to contribute to DPS or damage mitigation to be viable.

Secondly, unless you play with a static group or a good guild, the game is becoming more and more about solo play, even if it's 6 people soloing a dungeon at the same time. There is very little teamwork, xp/min seems to be more important than anything else, and people that play this way have migrated to fully self sufficient characters that need very little healing, buffing, or any other outside help. Since the bard in DDO is primarily a buffbot with some possible secondary healing, this means that in most cases it is the red headed stepchild.

Warchanter should be the alternative for DPS, but it falls down both in buffs and in actual melee ability.

No one waits for the bard to sing songs anymore, (or for the trapper to disable traps, etc) so the bard has become largely redundant. You can multiclass some interesting mutants, but the bottom line is that the bard is only useful for very specific situations and particular parties. For a general use toon that should be very versatile, it's mostly useless.

I love bards, and have played a couple. I really, really hope the enhancement pass fixes some of the issues. Upgrade the songs to be something really special, something that blows away the ship buffs that everyone has, and give the bard some real healing or dps options to fall back on as well.

It would also be nice to actually be able to charm things once in a while, but I know that's asking for a lot.

[voodoogroves]

I love bards. Love them.

That said, every character has to answer the question of "what is my role" ... and Bards have to answer the secondary question of "what is my role if there is a second bard in the party".

I'm a firm believer that for any character you build, it has to have a use - something relevant it is good at. It doesn't need to be the best at it, but it needs to be decent. "Best" entails lots of farming for equipment, EDs, etc.

If you're building a bard, build to do something really really well. If you want to be a spell-based charmer, you need to invest feats and gear into that. If you want to be melee (regardless of the PRE) you need to invest feats and gear into that. The trick is that the Bard PLATFORM may be the jack of all trades but in DDO to be relevant that isn't always useful. All bards get songs ... so what else are you going to do with your time?


Maybe you need to fine-tune your gear a bit or do a small lesser reincarnate. There's no reason any Bard be useless.

[AzB]

I love bards. Love them.

That said, every character has to answer the question of "what is my role" ... and Bards have to answer the secondary question of "what is my role if there is a second bard in the party".

This is a good point, and is relevant to other classes such as rogues, or even healers (although few people will complain about having too much healing) when there is another one present. About the only classes that are free from this are truly versatile classes, and classes that can put down massive dps. (Nobody ever complains about too much dps either! )

But to go back to the bard, this is the issue. The bard isn't really great at anything, and any backup abilities aren't exactly going to impress anyone either. (Not counting the occasional "wow, I never knew a bard could do that!" There are advantages to having rather low expectations thrust upon you sometimes) Let's look at another class that is versatile and unique... the druid. The druid can melee about as well as a bard, or focus on melee and be pretty fun, if not impressive. The druid can heal as well as a bard, and far better if specced for it. The druid can CC far better than a bard at higher levels. And on top of all that, the druid has offensive spell casting abilities that a bard does not have. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, the bard is the classic jack of all trades. In a game of min/max effectiveness. It wouldn't take much to fix, but I'm afraid it'll never happen, not the least of which is because of the box that the druid has been put into. He's a raid buffbot, a hagglebot, and a little like the ******** kid that used to live next door. You let him play with you because you felt bad if you excluded him.

It's time to think out of the box for the bard class. Luckily, there is multiclassing, because I'm afraid that's the only real tool we'll ever have. The enhancement update might fix a couple of things, (like removing required feats for pres on a terribly feat starved class, or updating/completing the pres) but I will wait until I see the update. I'm hopefully optimistic that the bard gets a bone, but deep down I'm a realist.

[voodoogroves]

The later PRE abilities should be song based and play to their strengths.

SS should get a song that is quick-cast and adds a short-term buff to spell pen or DCs (self or ally).

WC should get a song that is quick-cast and gives a short-term additional boost to melee power.

Virt should get a song that grants some other boost (saves? skill checks?) and a boost to their healing song.

[Sojourner]

Bards are certainly not useless. But they are one of the weaker classes in the game. And, the things they can do best, is often not noticed by other players.

+7 damage (Inspire Courage song with Inspired Damage enhancement)
+9 attack (Inspire Courage song, Inspire Greatness song, Inspired Attack enhancement)
+4 Saves (Inspire Heroics song)
+4% dodge (Inspire Heroics song)

Most players aren't going to notice any of that. DPS is going to be thinking is "Man, my build rocks, look at all this damage I'm doing". Healers are going to be thinking "I'm all over this" (especially if they don't notice the bard helping with healing).


Personally - I'm playing a bard now for the first time ever. But, I always like to have a bard in the party. Not only are the songs nice - but they have the extra bonus of not being removed by beholders. They're usually good off-healers, and if specced right are good main healers. If the group is struggling, their CC can make the difference between a wipe and success. If the group is zerging through, then their damage is good enough to be a noticeable contribution.


Bards certainly could use some love from the devs. But, they are far from useless.

[Aashrym]

Bards are far and away the weakest of all classes.

The only thing they have is enthrall/fascinate. I disagree.
Those abilities take so long to use on heroic missions the mobs are dead normally before you finishing singing them in groups. I largely agree on this point. There are some heroic quests where fascinate is useful but it's a very situational ability. I don't believe there is any such thing as a fascinate specced bard and they do have other useful abilities.
Loads of mobs are immune to the songs - undead, constructs, vermin, red named (which are dancable via otto's) So the bard has a useful abilities like otto's? I concur.

lower melee damage that all melees (about half at best) Melees should stop including IC in their DPS and attribute that to the bard then. A bard in fatesinger using IC is adding the equivalent to +24d6 damage per attack in a raid with 8 melee. An equivalent that is multiplicative through crits instead of additive. Most melee would sell body parts for that kind of bonus, and that's on top of any incidental extra hits from the to hit bonus.
lower spell damage that all spellcasters (avout a tenth) Yes, but they are clearly meant to apply bonus damage through melee instead of spells. The issue with this is the dev's do use dm fiat immunities in and the number of combatants in the group has an extreme impact on IC. The failing there is no real fall back for spell damage for caster style bards and they suffer in the damage department. Maximized empowered great shout does enough damage for a small burst but it's hardly optimal. Twisting in energy burst is more effective. This is something being looked at in the enhancement pass with additional spells becoming available to bards in the enhancement trees. On the plus side, my bards heal the party far, far betting than my arcane casters and CC far better than my divine casters.

crappy armour - there is not one single suit of armour in the game that says wear me to a bard. Any light or medium armor that appeals to other classes will be appealing to bards. It doesn't have to bard specific to be useful.

Spells who's DC's are always worse that equivalent wizards Not necessarily. Not all wizards are enchantment specced human/helf/drow PM's using yugo pots, and human/helf/drow archmage enchanters would be giving up self healing with higher fortification risks on yugo pots; they tend to be WF and give up a DC for racial INT bonus/enhancements. Generally the wizard will have marginally higher DC's and pathetic DC's compared to the fascinate family of abilities. There is actually little impact if 1-2 enemies might sneak through a disco ball and require addition single target CC, tbh. The real difference and impact is in the limited spell selection and that is something we're looking at seeing at least some improvements in the enhancement changes. Spellsinger DC's tend to be better than sorcs, clerics, and similar to FvS for enemies in the aura.

Songs that take 5-10 times as long to cast as spells, with long animations that cripple your personal DPS Sing them while moving between fights.

Bugger all bard related special items - where the hell is perform on any end game loot? a skill that is utterly vital to bards. Where are the +17/+20 perform items? http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Shimmering_Pendant I wouldn't call it 'end game' so much but it was easy enough to acquire. I don't recall all the sources of perform bonus but that was an easy one off the top of my head.

Almost all bard buffs are weakened as generally a 1-2 point worse version can be obtained via easily available clickies, potions or as ship buffs. Not IC. It's not what it once was before the AC/combat changes but it can still be a nice damage bonus beyond what you are describing, particularly on a war chanter. Inspire heroics for dodge bonus helps some, inspire excellence is a nice buff. Trance is also a useful buff, and spellsong vigor is a resource saver.

My apologies for responding within the quote but it was easy to keep the replies specific to the comments. I think bards do have issues. They were consistently ignored when benefits were added to other classes and they moved farther and farther from a jack-of-all-trades to a jack-of-highly-impacted-by-the-need-to-focus-on-a-couple-of-trades.

What they can do is still worth adding to groups, particularly for raids or difficult content. The times that characters are eating through mobs faster than a bard can sing are the times it doesn't matter on bit who's in the group.

The biggest issue with them is damage is very dependent on number of players using IC or trance, limited spell selection so the casters have weak damage options and limited spell CC options on a class that appears to be meant for CC, and break on hit mezzing has drawbacks.

I think they need work but are not as bad as you seem to think.

[Aashrym]

This is a good point, and is relevant to other classes such as rogues, or even healers (although few people will complain about having too much healing) when there is another one present. About the only classes that are free from this are truly versatile classes, and classes that can put down massive dps. (Nobody ever complains about too much dps either! )

ED's opened up opportunities for some of the damage shortcomings. The reason I always build my bards for healing is because no one complains about an adequate healer with a DPS buff and CC when needed.

But to go back to the bard, this is the issue. The bard isn't really great at anything, and any backup abilities aren't exactly going to impress anyone either. (Not counting the occasional "wow, I never knew a bard could do that!" There are advantages to having rather low expectations thrust upon you sometimes) Let's look at another class that is versatile and unique... the druid. The druid can melee about as well as a bard, or focus on melee and be pretty fun, if not impressive. The druid can heal as well as a bard, and far better if specced for it. The druid can CC far better than a bard at higher levels. And on top of all that, the druid has offensive spell casting abilities that a bard does not have. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Druids have no wand and scroll enhancements, and they use AoE HoT's instead of AoE bursts. A bard can burst heal a group with MCMW and MCLW plus gets up to 75% wand&scroll. Druid shape changing also interferes with scroll healing, which is a big part of the game in many places. Bards also get +80 positive spells power in the enhancements compared to the druid's +65. They are more similar in terms of healing capabilities than you might realize.

Also, druids have some decent spells for CC. Earthquake is awesome. Snowslide is fun. Their spells don't have the durations that something like disco ball does, and they don't have the debuffing prep spells to go with them, let alone the ability to match DC's on the fascinate lines. The spells are nice but I still wouldn't consider them on par. CC is something bards really can shine at. Unfortunately CC is still a situational need most of the time.

Yes, the bard is the classic jack of all trades. In a game of min/max effectiveness. It wouldn't take much to fix, but I'm afraid it'll never happen, not the least of which is because of the box that the druid has been put into. He's a raid buffbot, a hagglebot, and a little like the ******** kid that used to live next door. You let him play with you because you felt bad if you excluded him.

It's time to think out of the box for the bard class. Luckily, there is multiclassing, because I'm afraid that's the only real tool we'll ever have. The enhancement update might fix a couple of things, (like removing required feats for pres on a terribly feat starved class, or updating/completing the pres) but I will wait until I see the update. I'm hopefully optimistic that the bard gets a bone, but deep down I'm a realist.

All classes are feats starved. It's a game secret.

[AzB]

All classes are feats starved. It's a game secret.

Yes, it's true. But on other classes I always feel like I have a feat or two that I can use for convenience feats. Feats that are not required, but make life easier. Possibly because the bard is so versatile, I never feel like the basics are covered unless something else important is sacrificed.

Also, druids have some decent spells for CC. Earthquake is awesome. Snowslide is fun. Their spells don't have the durations that something like disco ball does, and they don't have the debuffing prep spells to go with them, let alone the ability to match DC's on the fascinate lines. The spells are nice but I still wouldn't consider them on par. CC is something bards really can shine at. Unfortunately CC is still a situational need most of the time.

The biggest difference between disco ball and earthquake is that earthquake does damage as well as CC. So yeah, it's shorter. It doesn't have to be as long because it's a lot more effective. And if the damage from earthquake isn't enough, you can cast Storm of Vengeance, firewall, lightning, ice flowers, sic the wolf on the knocked down mobs, or whatever. These are options that the bard doesn't have at all. None of the spells do any damage, unless you count the very lame sonic spells which need a major investment to be mediocre.

Most of the drawbacks of the bard, imo are based on the total lack of dps from any source. You can build a melee bard that's pretty effective, but you pretty much have to splash fighter to get enough feats (and weapons profs) to be more than slightly above pathetic, and you give up pretty much every other bard spell that's not related to utility or healing. Every class in the game, even other so called "support classes" get at least 2 or 3 methods for dealing damage, and with any real investment into those powers, are quite potent at killing things. Generally, without giving up the abilities that define those classes.

And whatever you might think about the other abilities, the songs need help. When a warchanter sings a song in a mid level group and the group laughs at the bard because the song is of no use to anyone, or when they ask the bard not to sing a song because it makes them more vulnerable, there is a problem. And these two songs don't get any better as you raise levels. So it's not like the power catches up to them at some point. Some of the songs are unique and people like them because they can't be achieved any other way. And yes, they do perpetuate beyond anti magic effects. But if they're not really that powerful to begin with, who cares? The power creep has left several classes behind in many areas, but the entire bard class is a speck in the rear view mirror.

And yes, I'm speaking mostly about heroic levels as EDs pretty much allow any class to do whatever they want. That's not fixing the class.

[Aashrym]

The biggest difference between disco ball and earthquake is that earthquake does damage as well as CC. So yeah, it's shorter. It doesn't have to be as long because it's a lot more effective. And if the damage from earthquake isn't enough, you can cast Storm of Vengeance, firewall, lightning, ice flowers, sic the wolf on the knocked down mobs, or whatever. These are options that the bard doesn't have at all. None of the spells do any damage, unless you count the very lame sonic spells which need a major investment to be mediocre.

The biggest difference is they target different saves, different monsters are immune, and WILL debuffs are more available. Another big difference is it's easier to debuff the save for disco ball for higher reliability. The damage from Earthquake is poor damage even compared to sonic spells. The class does play well using melee within AoE DoT's, earthquake is nice, and GCC is a nice bonus to damage. The damage options don't make them better at CC, however; they give them better spell damage options.

Spells normally take investment regardless. Bard damage is mainly done with melee, IC, hage, and things like that. It's when there is no one else to stack the bonuses on in groups that IC suffers in the damage dept and that is a shortcoming of the class.

Most of the drawbacks of the bard, imo are based on the total lack of dps from any source. You can build a melee bard that's pretty effective, but you pretty much have to splash fighter to get enough feats (and weapons profs) to be more than slightly above pathetic, and you give up pretty much every other bard spell that's not related to utility or healing. Every class in the game, even other so called "support classes" get at least 2 or 3 methods for dealing damage, and with any real investment into those powers, are quite potent at killing things. Generally, without giving up the abilities that define those classes.

They melee for DPS, or in some cases make bardchers. I can build a CHA based bard that can still melee. The damage could be much better but it exists. I can build a STR bard that can still CC. I can still heal in both cases. The degree of ability in each changes but opportunity costs do exist for all classes. For example, being an air savant does give up caster ability on earth spells and using wolf form does give up casting speed.

And whatever you might think about the other abilities, the songs need help. When a warchanter sings a song in a mid level group and the group laughs at the bard because the song is of no use to anyone, or when they ask the bard not to sing a song because it makes them more vulnerable, there is a problem. And these two songs don't get any better as you raise levels. So it's not like the power catches up to them at some point. Some of the songs are unique and people like them because they can't be achieved any other way. And yes, they do perpetuate beyond anti magic effects. But if they're not really that powerful to begin with, who cares? The power creep has left several classes behind in many areas, but the entire bard class is a speck in the rear view mirror.

And yes, I'm speaking mostly about heroic levels as EDs pretty much allow any class to do whatever they want. That's not fixing the class.

Go get a moonhowl, build CHA, and add power attack. Use the red slot for devotion if you can't slot devotion somewhere else, or damage if you can. That gives you a rounded bard at low levels.

If someone asked me not to sing recklessness I would ask them to remove the debuff so those who still need the buff can make use of it. I would not use a song I don't need to.

Spells and songs can both outlive their usefulness. Ironskin can be useful at level. Ironskin is not normally useful at level 22. I wouldn't use hold person at level 18 either because hold monster, mass hold person, and mass hold monster spells exist. Simply because hold person is still available to high level casters doesn't make them any worse.

Not all songs are useful. I agree. It doesn't make sense to decide a class is completely left behind based on what isn't useful instead of looking at what is useful. Inspire courage is useful, fascinate et al can be useful, inspire heroics can be useful, inspire excellence is useful, song of capering is useful, spellsong trance is useful, spellsong vigor is useful, enthrall is useful, sustaining song can be useful; other songs have niche uses and yet other songs suck. That's like deciding clerics are useless because spawn screen is on there spell list; just don't use what isn't useful and don't let that be a blinder to what is. Then provide feedback on how to improve it.

Bards were left behind. I agree on that too. I know they can still CC well if built for it and with room for improvements due to shortcomings, heal adequately if built for it but there is room for improvement there too, and the main source is damage so there is room for improvements there. I can see a lot of room for improvements in several areas. I also know they still have some pluses left.

[AzB]

It seems to me that we are in agreement on most things, and the primary disagreements are semantics and small details.

The real issue here is that you're obviously a glass half full kinda guy, and I'm clearly a glass half empty kinda guy.

But we both like the bard class, and we both think it's worth saving and needs some love for essentially the same reasons.

I just hope that the enhancement pass brings a little love and maybe we will both be happier with our bards.

Happy singing!

[Todkaninchen]

Bards are far and away the weakest of all classes.

The only thing they have is enthrall/fascinate.
Those abilities take so long to use on heroic missions the mobs are dead normally before you finishing singing them in groups.
Loads of mobs are immune to the songs - undead, constructs, vermin, red named (which are dancable via otto's)

lower melee damage that all melees (about half at best)
lower spell damage that all spellcasters (avout a tenth)

crappy armour - there is not one single suit of armour in the game that says wear me to a bard.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Elfcraft_Breastplate
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Blue_Dragonhide_Armor

You have spell penetration, decent AC's (for the level) and a universal lore that covers resonance and healing lore.

Both are light armor and--other than the Elfcraft--covers all of your levels of spells. Elfcraft tops out at level 5 spells, but is Min level 10 and you get level 6 spells at 16.

Spells who's DC's are always worse that equivalent wizards

Almost all bard buffs are weakened as generally a 1-2 point worse version can be obtained via easily available clickies, potions or as ship buffs.

The DC's depend. A Spell Singer can actually buff there's by a level or two but does have a lower max level of spells so Heighten doesn't have as much oomph for things like Charm Monster. The fascinate song has a potential DC that might work when enchantment spells might not and--with things like greater heroism and good luck--can have their DC's autobuffed by any skill affecting buff.

The buffs themselves (not including songs) really depend on the character levels and metamagics used and the songs can be increased through the enhancements chosen by the bard. In some cases, you can actually stack them easier.

[Aashrym]

A Spell Singer can actually buff there's by a level or two but does have a lower max level of spells so Heighten doesn't have as much oomph for things like Charm Monster.

The capstone takes care of that. +2 Enchantment DC's, +2 CHA.