Wizard PM: drow vs. human

[zichant]

I want to TR one of my sorcs into a wizard pale master. I normally would take human for the extra feat, but this time I was thinking drow.

Which class would have the highest possible maximum DC? Drow get an extra +2 INT over humans but humans also have access to the human adaptability enhancements plus the extra feat - and if I am not mistaken that could equal out to then same intelligence and DCs as a drow (and without losing the 2 constitution).

So, in your opinion, which is "better" and why?

Thanks for any input on the subject.

[Uska]

I like my drow pm but overall I think a human might be better the difference in dc would be small if anything and the bonus feat is really nice

[SoloPhalanx]

Either human for the feat or elf for the spell pen.

[goodspeed]

Either human for the feat or elf for the spell pen.

ya pretty much. Don't know how drow even entered the thought there.

Ya take human for the extra feat and the human stat points, or ya go elf for the extra spell pen which plays quite a roll now.

[smithj_2020]

The +2 int is nice, but its a trade off, because your Con is starting at 6, obviously there are ways around it of course, I prefer human, with the extra feat and the human adapt line, and humans are also a 34-36 point build if you tr where drow are only 32, so the trade off is still there and can be made up literally, so its bascally if you wanna start with higher int..

but, if you max int at 20, youll only be able to get con to 14, pretty low considering at lower level you have to do some melee. Human can max int, get con to 16 and str to 12, which is pretty good statistics to wreak some havoc doing some casting and melee...

I prefered human my 3 lifes. all matter of style play i guess.

[Deathdefy]

Drow. The extra human feat won't actually be +1 Int unless you do something off beat. Usually, the epic feats are taken up with ESF: Necro and Epic Spell Pen (or Great Ability: Int and Epic Spell Pen if GA:Int will make you even); either way you're either one DC in Necro behind drow, or one DC in every school but Necro behind drow.

Having said that, meh. Human for the bonus feat is perfectly reasonable and might be better given the current state of end game.

[Kalari]

Um not going to be popular here since everyone seems to think Drow are so great...


But for Pale Masters especially a TR why not try an Elf? Forget about the stupid con thing specially if you were considering Drow anyway.

Elves get Elven Arcanum, which used to suck but now adds umph to your DC's I have the full line on my TR'ed wizard and the only reason I went a 3rd round with her is cause she was my original 28 pt build and I wanted her to be a legend. with Epic Destinies her DC's will top 50+ easily I love my elven Pale Master and at her lowest Kalari's hit points on her second life was 525 so she wasn't super squishy either. Currently at 412 at level 18 on this life and with my gear will get her higher then the lower 500 this time around.

Just something for you to think about.

[WruntJunior]

Um not going to be popular here since everyone seems to think Drow are so great...


But for Pale Masters especially a TR why not try an Elf? Forget about the stupid con thing specially if you were considering Drow anyway.

Elves get Elven Arcanum, which used to suck but now adds umph to your DC's I have the full line on my TR'ed wizard and the only reason I went a 3rd round with her is cause she was my original 28 pt build and I wanted her to be a legend. with Epic Destinies her DC's will top 50+ easily I love my elven Pale Master and at her lowest Kalari's hit points on her second life was 525 so she wasn't super squishy either. Currently at 412 at level 18 on this life and with my gear will get her higher then the lower 500 this time around.

Just something for you to think about.

Elf isn't really needed for spell pen since u14 stopped being the end-game.

Personally, I'd prefer going WF Archmage over fleshy PM, but that's because with EEs as they are now, trying to get a super-DC is becoming a futile pursuit.

[voodoogroves]

Elf isn't really needed for spell pen since u14 stopped being the end-game.

Personally, I'd prefer going WF Archmage over fleshy PM, but that's because with EEs as they are now, trying to get a super-DC is becoming a futile pursuit.

Happy my wizard is a WF PM, and can swap to AM.

[Lonnbeimnech]

18 base
5 tome
6 level up
3 wiz enhance
1 human adapt
8 item
1 exceptional
3 insightful
1 litany
2 cap
6 magister ed
2 store pots
2 abashi cookies
2 ship
2 lich
2 epic feats, though this means not taking epic spell focus
------------------

thats 64, though I might be forgetting something

theres also house d pots for +3 alchemical so if you were drow thats 68, for 1 min, if human its 67, so yeah drow can get 1 higher.


But are you realy going to put that kind of effort into getting max int, not just very high but max?

I'de say there is very little difference between human and drow, and it really has more to do with flavor at this point. Elf and wf on the other hand, do offer real advantages.

[zichant]

18 base
5 tome
6 level up
3 wiz enhance
1 human adapt
8 item
1 exceptional
3 insightful
1 litany
2 cap
6 magister ed
2 store pots
2 abashi cookies
2 ship
2 lich
2 epic feats, though this means not taking epic spell focus
------------------

thats 64, though I might be forgetting something

theres also house d pots for +3 alchemical so if you were drow thats 68, for 1 min, if human its 67, so yeah drow can get 1 higher.


But are you realy going to put that kind of effort into getting max int, not just very high but max?

I'de say there is very little difference between human and drow, and it really has more to do with flavor at this point. Elf and wf on the other hand, do offer real advantages.

Thanks everyone. And thanks for this breakdown. I was looking for something like this.

The problem that I have with Elf is that it would cost me 10 APs just to take the enhancements in spell pen... that's a lot of action points for 4 spell pen. And I would lose int as well compared to drow, and the feat compared to human.

Appreciate the input all!

[skullzz]

Thanks everyone. And thanks for this breakdown. I was looking for something like this.

The problem that I have with Elf is that it would cost me 10 APs just to take the enhancements in spell pen... that's a lot of action points for 4 spell pen. And I would lose int as well compared to drow, and the feat compared to human.

Appreciate the input all!

The elven arcanum enhancment line is cheaper than the wizard spell pen line, and you also get 80 more sp with it.
Wizspell pen (is 2/4/6) for 3 spell pen (unless I'm misreading and they stack) for 12 AP
or Elven (1/2/3/4) for 4 spell pen and 80 sp.

[Viconiax]

I want to TR one of my sorcs into a wizard pale master. I normally would take human for the extra feat, but this time I was thinking drow.

Which class would have the highest possible maximum DC? Drow get an extra +2 INT over humans but humans also have access to the human adaptability enhancements plus the extra feat - and if I am not mistaken that could equal out to then same intelligence and DCs as a drow (and without losing the 2 constitution).

So, in your opinion, which is "better" and why?

Thanks for any input on the subject.

Races is not any "better" than the other. A good drow pm can be as good as a human pm and vice versa. As i point this out in my old thread. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=407741 -2 con is not that bad like people think.

DC is not that bad in EE gh for a pm, i can instant kill 60% of time and cc 90% of time in ee gh with 54/54 necro/enchant dc.

Choosing human would give you an extra feat which could be useful, but a drow could give you +1 dc which is useful as well. Elf pm is also a solid choice since it give you more spell pen.

[holfrar]

My PM Holfrar started as drow, but his second and third life i went human.

Human adaptability makes up 1 Int and taking human adapt - Con opens up another toughness enhancement.

The extra feat can give you another spell focus (i went enchant for CC)

With ED's and twists, gear etc the extra +1 int from drow is kind of nullified.

I am not fully maxed out on my gear yet, but when buffed up (not using yugo pots and cookies etc) just standard spells and ship buffs he has over 700hp, close to 3000sp, necro dc of 52 and enchant dc's in the high 40's (48-49 i think can't remember)

His spell pen is in the early 50's

Feats he has
SF/GSF - necro
SF - Enchant
Toughness
Wiz past life
Maximize
empower
extend
heighten
SP/GSP/ESP
Epic int
Quicken

Obviously your 'power' is also gear dependant as well, i am lucky and have most of what i want (lvl 24 robe of shadows, GS hp/Con-opp, Torc (need to epic) bracers of demon consort(need to epic) plus other bits +8 int/con item)

Love playing him, my favorite character.

[DynaTheCat]

well..... there's a problem with drow atm for highest dc.

Because max int tome is now raised to +5... humans can now land on Drow's even numbered max int, and drows now land on an Odd number max int.

So... at this time, if you go as a human, you gain a feat, more con, and you still have the possibility of landing on the max int available. (Litany int build, 3 int twists, full int magister).

What you sacrifice for this build in terms of gear is another matter...and another thread.....

[WruntJunior]

well..... there's a problem with drow atm for highest dc.

Because max int tome is now raised to +5... humans can now land on Drow's even numbered max int, and drows now land on an Odd number max int.

So... at this time, if you go as a human, you gain a feat, more con, and you still have the possibility of landing on the max int available. (Litany int build, 3 int twists, full int magister).

What you sacrifice for this build in terms of gear is another matter...and another thread.....

20 base
05 tome
06 levels
03 enhancements
02 capstone
06 ED
01 twisted (usually all people twist is 1 at most)
08 item
01 exceptional
03 insightful
02 lich form
02 yugo pot (sustainable, and easy to keep up)
1 litany
-----------
60 first-life completely sustainable
02 ship buff
02 store pot
-----------
64 first-life reasonably sustainable
02 completionist
-----------
66 completionist fully reasonably self-buffed (nothing insane, fairly maintainable)

Drow is highest int currently, unless I missed something.

[DynaTheCat]

20 Drow
+6 Level-up
+5 Tome
+3 Wizard
+2 Capstone
+2 Completionist
+8 Enhancement
+3 Insight
+1 Exceptional
+2 Ship
+4 Profane
+3 Alchemical
+2 Competence
+2 Epic Feat
+2 Yugoloth
+2 Lich
+2 DDO Store Pot
+10 Royalty
+5 Epic Destiny
+3 Twists

____________

85 int drow max (source ddo wiki)

[voodoogroves]

MM... how did you get 6 int in levels? I thought was 5?

I'm not sure. Please check for me?

Level 24.

[DynaTheCat]

Level 24.

ya lol... I forgot about that.

Also, I think ddo wiki messed up...

It didn't consider the +1 profane from litany supposedly stacks with +4 profane from Abishai cookies.

Thus, WruntJunior may be right.

Max may be drow with an even +86 int

Edit: Oh wait... wiki also states +5 for ED... we know +6 is max for Ed...

So... max drow int is actually +87?

[SoloPhalanx]

6 due to the point in level 24.

SF/GSF - necro
SF - Enchant
Toughness
Wiz past life
Maximize
empower
extend
heighten
SP/GSP/ESP
Epic int
Quicken

Drow is still a silly choice since you cannot fit all the feats you want (SF,GSF for necro and enchant, Wiz PL, Thoughness, you WILL be at least even on DCs with a human, and with -35 HP.

Let's have an Int breakdown of what one will usually run with, with some cuts i made to reflect myself (personally, i don't believe in store pots, etc for standart questing (anything that isn't attempts at speed records)).

20 base
04 tome (possible 5, but really hard to come by for now)
06 levels
03 enhancements
02 capstone
06 ED
08 item
01 exceptional
03 insightful
02 lich form
02 yugo pot (sustainable, and easy to keep up)
01 litany
02 ship
-----------
60 completely sustainable (stole 1 from tome, 1 from twist, added ship in from wrunt's calcs)

Drow stands at 62
Human stands at 61
Elf stands at 60

Again, this is assuming ONLY (really, is "only" the appropriate word? :P) a +4 tome.

Let's analyse the feats for each build. You get 7 feats + 5 bonus + 2 Epic (+1 Human)

Things you eventually want everywhere:

SF, GSF: Necro/Enchant
SF, GSF: Enchant
Wiz PL
Extend
Maximize
Empower
Quicken
Heighten
SP, GSP
Thoughness

So that's 13. Human can fit in all, Elves and Drow leave one out.

Let's assume Drow choose to leave out GSF: Enchant
Let's assume Elf leaves GSP out, making up for it with its SP line (tight on AP since you'll need to go max line on it to compensate no access to ESP as well).

Interesting epic feats for wizards:
ESP
ESF: Necro/Enchant
+1 Int

Now, regarding epic feats:
Drow: +1 Int, ESP (twist 1 int)
Human: ESP, ESF: Necro (twist 1 int in)
Elf: +2 Int from Feats (Twist 2 int, making use of Tier 4 Fatesinger +2 SP and +1 Int twist)

End result in the scenario above:
Drow - max DC in everything except Enchant
Human - same as drow in necro, -1 in the others
Elf - same as the drow, with +1 in enchant, but with 1 less twist space

Everything has the same spell pen, except elf which took +2 from the singer (available to others as well, but perhaps less interesting).

As a reference, I'm following the elven "build" I suggested, but with Insightful Reflexes instead of GSF Enchant / Empower, undecided yet.


In another note, WF are superior due to DPS being superior to necro atm.