Meleeing the EE Truthful one?

[SableShadow]

I realize I've done a very dangerous thing here. You can't reason with a Frenzied Spartan. The last guy who tried to reason with a Frenzied Spartan was yelled at and thrown down a well... But I was told that sarcasm was against the forum rules.

[Ape_Man]

What's broken is to expect the same tactic to work in every raid in every MMO: the oppressive "holy trinity" (TANK, healer, dps). . .

"Broken" might be too strong of a word but the raid is a little too punishing for melees. "One small mistake and you're dead" is what I consider to be too punishing.

I'm not a big fan of having to have a certain type of group to complete something easily, I like a plethora of viable options. The FoT's I've been in with lots of ranged have gone a hell of a lot smoother than the heavy melee runs even with the same players.

Don't get me wrong, I love ranged toons and love when they get a chance to shine. But the pendulum has swung a bit far on this raid.

[anivaj]

"Broken" might be too strong of a word but the raid is a little too punishing for melees. "One small mistake and you're dead" is what I consider to be too punishing.

I'm not a big fan of having to have a certain type of group to complete something easily, I like a plethora of viable options. The FoT's I've been in with lots of ranged have gone a hell of a lot smoother than the heavy melee runs even with the same players.

Don't get me wrong, I love ranged toons and love when they get a chance to shine. But the pendulum has swung a bit far on this raid.

Perhaps this raid will let melee toons know what it is like to be nerfed and marginalized in a quest. Welcome to the world of DC casters

[Ape_Man]

Perhaps this raid will let melee toons know what it is like to be nerfed and marginalized in a quest. Welcome to the world of DC casters

Play more than one type of toon, it's good for the soul.

I play both melee and DC casters? Should I just rage-quit?

[Zerkul]

I play both melee and DC casters? Should I just rage-quit?

I respecced my main into a Shiradi Champion nuking build: cheaper, efficient and long lasting nuking type with inbuilt CC.

I sincerely hope that enhancement pass will introduce a bit more balance into DC casting and standard nuking.

[anivaj]

Play more than one type of toon, it's good for the soul.

I play both melee and DC casters? Should I just rage-quit?

No, and Turbine should make content that can be played fairly by all classes, instead of making raids that exclude or highly nerf some.

For example, I give you elite shroud before EDs were added. How many of those were up that wanted only arcanes and divines? That is not good design IMHO, especially in any raid where items are BTC...

[Nitesco]

Maybe it's time for melee's to all make triple positive returning hammers. At least they'll be cheap and noone will have an excuse not to have a Raise Dead clicky anymore.

[HungarianRhapsody]

If you mean KITE-TANKING: Why does this mean BROKEN? It's another strategy. A legitimate strategy.

No! NOOOO! It is not! It is broken and wrong. Using strategy and/or tactics is CHEATING!

The only acceptable way to complete a quest or raid is to have one or more people scream "LEROY JENKINS!" while a Cleric or FvS bombards them with Hjeals through a metaphysical IV line.

[Ape_Man]

No, and Turbine should make content that can be played fairly by all classes, instead of making raids that exclude or highly nerf some.

Not disagreeing. I have issues with Turbine making encounters where it's all but impossible to be a melee. Incoming melee damage in many EE encounters is insane and for many classes/builds there just aren't many options other than taking it on the chin and hitting back.

1000 HP toons dropping in a fraction of a second is dumb.

Turbine generally increases the difficulty in the dumbest way possible. The dumbest way possible is just raising the numbers.

For example, I give you elite shroud before EDs were added. How many of those were up that wanted only arcanes and divines? That is not good design IMHO, especially in any raid where items are BTC...

That's more players being stupid than anything else, i've been in many "DOT-Chronos" and junk like that pre U14 and they weren't much better than A-team runs made of diverse (and good) toons.

[arminius]

Maybe it's time for melee's to all make triple positive returning hammers. At least they'll be cheap and noone will have an excuse not to have a Raise Dead clicky anymore.

This is what I'm looking to do. Not crazy about working Shroud back in the rotation though.

[scoobmx]

I'm amazed at how many people think tank-and-spank is the only legitimate way to down a boss, and should be made the best strategy in every raid. It's as if there aren't enough raids already using tank-and-spank. All these years I've never seen anyone kite-tank horoth or suulo or the CAD or xyzzy or the LOB ...

Yes, your melee is bad for once. Get over it. It's happened before to ranged, arcanes, melee using strange weapons (quarterstaff), stalwarts, etc.

[maddmatt70]

I play mostly melee toons, and I was the only melee on our EE FoT completion on the day of live release. Firstly, why is it broken that an Epic Undead Dragon's mouth isn't something you should stand and stare into like a training dummy? From any perspective: tactical or roleplaying, if you could range, why wouldn't you???

Also, RANGED TANKING: I noticed since the Poisoned Well quest that no matter how much hate a ranged caster DOT'er or archer has on the dragon, if a melee moves withing melee range, the green dragon will switch aggro to the melee it can it. This seems like smart AI to me (as opposed to the old AI, where you could perch the original VON1, crit-fish a firewall, bake... then melee could come in and beat down with impunity since the mobs never switch aggro off the caster they couldn't reach).

If you mean KITE-TANKING: Why does this mean BROKEN? It's another strategy. A legitimate strategy. I is risky and requires a great build and high player skill to execute and coordinate.

What's broken is to expect the same tactic to work in every raid in every MMO: the oppressive "holy trinity" (TANK, healer, dps). BTW, on that first run of ours, where we only had a party of 11 and only 1 player had ever done the raid before (on Lam), we completed in our first attempt "learning run" in about 45min and about 87 pots (mostly for DOTs, not heals), as much or less than a brute force completion. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...05&postcount=1) We do it a lot more efficiently now and are still experimenting with different tactics. Weird right? We are experimenting and not assuming one old way of thinking is the best way; and if it's hard or doesn't work, concluding the design MUST BE BROKEN.

The Devs have created an excellent new raid that's fresh and fast! I won't be sad if I never see (or hear) Ana again... Also, don't always assume first that the AI is broken... maybe it's not the "artificial" intelligence that's broken.

I realize I've done a very dangerous thing here. You can't reason with a Frenzied Spartan. The last guy who tried to reason with a Frenzied Spartan was yelled at and thrown down a well... But I was told that sarcasm was against the forum rules.

Sure other strategies then just tank/melee/healer should work in game, but quite frankly ranged kiting is more of an exploit then a strategy. A cool ranged strategy would be two high hate archers with high diplomacy scores constantly bouncing a target between each other. Now something like that is cool and takes skill, but out running a raid boss because the raid boss is slow is something else altogether.

[SableShadow]

Perhaps this raid will let melee toons know what it is like to be nerfed and marginalized in a quest. Welcome to the world of DC casters

What makes you think we haven't seen this before?

but quite frankly ranged kiting is more of an exploit then a strategy.

The fact that there exists a standard term, 'ranged kiting', for this strategy invalidates the 'more of an exploit' part.

Look on the bright side: maybe we won't have a "buff ranged! Nao!" thread on the forums. This week.

[Ape_Man]

Yes, your melee is bad for once. Get over it. It's happened before to ranged, arcanes, melee using strange weapons (quarterstaff), stalwarts, etc.

Just don't whine when everyone has TRd/LRd into Shiradi sorcs and Monkchers.

Variety of viable builds is a good thing. Raids/encounters that lowers this pool is not.

[Viisari]

A cool ranged strategy would be two high hate archers with high diplomacy scores constantly bouncing a target between each other. Now something like that is cool and takes skill, but out running a raid boss because the raid boss is slow is something else altogether.

A cool ranged strategy is filling your enemies with so many arrows that they die.

[Ape_Man]

A cool ranged strategy is filling your enemies with so many arrows that they die.

I so wish I had more sig room . . .

[lugoman]

If you mean KITE-TANKING: Why does this mean BROKEN? It's another strategy. A legitimate strategy. I is risky and requires a great build and high player skill to execute and coordinate.

I havent ran this raid a lot, but the one time I did it where he was kited it seemed bugged. He just kind of walked toward the kiter. The amount of his attacks dropped way off from when he is tanked.

[maddmatt70]

What makes you think we haven't seen this before?



The fact that there exists a standard term, 'ranged kiting', for this strategy invalidates the 'more of an exploit' part.

Look on the bright side: maybe we won't have a "buff ranged! Nao!" thread on the forums. This week.

You do not range kite a raid boss for completion especially one you fight for several minutes. That just means the raid boss is not worthy to be a raid boss and should have his/her purple status taken away.

[HungarianRhapsody]

You do not range kite a raid boss for completion especially one you fight for several minutes. That just means the raid boss is not worthy to be a raid boss and should have his/her purple status taken away.

If you need to do other stuff while the raid boss beats on one or more of you, then kiting makes a tremendous amount of sense.

Most of Turbine's raid bosses are giant piles of HP with very little offensive power, so they don't need to be kited. Turbine appears to like "Tank and Spank", so that's what players tend to do. If the raids were more complicated, then kiting would be a lot more common.

[SableShadow]

You do not range kite a raid boss for completion especially one you fight for several minutes.

Ranged kite was at one time the preferred method of dealing with the DQ, for instance.

That just means the raid boss is not worthy to be a raid boss and should have his/her purple status taken away.

/shrug

I just don't think you can say "zomg! exploit!" for range kiting something that, from go, says "ranged kite me".

It's unlike Day 1 Abbott:
Devs: "Do teh puzzles!"
Players: "Lol, troll-dev, your puzzles are teh brokedness! Hjealing umbrella ftw!"
Devs: "...fine! Abbott closed!"

I note that FooT is not closed.