Why dump extra points in Strength?

[Shuricain]

I've noticed a lot of builds throwing extra points into Strength for wizard builds, why is this? Is it solely for the beginning levels melee, is it for carrying capacity or something else I'm missing? Personally I don't see why not take the points into Charisma so you can have an increase in UMD.

[katz]

because going helpless (and thus unable to cast, or do anything really) from a ray of enfeeblement SUCKS

[WruntJunior]

Three reasons:
(1) melee at low levels
(2) carrying capacity
(3) ray of enfeeblement and similar effects

[Shuricain]

Cool thanks for clearing that up.

So if I were to start a level 7 wizard (Veteran II), would it be safe to just dump the extra ability points into Charisma since I won't be doing any melee and I'll have +4 strength enhancements for carrying stuff and fending off ray of enfeeblement?

[Ivan_Milic]

Cool thanks for clearing that up.

So if I were to start a level 7 wizard (Veteran II), would it be safe to just dump the extra ability points into Charisma since I won't be doing any melee and I'll have +4 strength enhancements for carrying stuff and fending off ray of enfeeblement?

Ray of Enfeeblement
Maximum Strength penalty 1d6+5 at caster level 10.


Put it in str.

[Impaqt]

Dont forget Symbol of weakness as well..

ANd even if you have "Enough" getting Burdened is no fun either, although I think they reduced or eliminated the movement penalty

[danotmano1998]

I've tried this both ways.

In my experience, a lesser potion of restoration takes care of things.
I've routinely dumped str on my mages with little to no bad effects.

I can recall one time I went helpless. One. In 3 caster lives. IDK, maybe I was just lucky?
(Note: This was elite streaking and running solo a lot)

Get yourself some bulls strength scrolls and some lesser restore potions, if you're worried about being helpless.

[Merlin-ator]

Cool thanks for clearing that up.

So if I were to start a level 7 wizard (Veteran II), would it be safe to just dump the extra ability points into Charisma since I won't be doing any melee and I'll have +4 strength enhancements for carrying stuff and fending off ray of enfeeblement?

Sure, just take 2 Rogue and max UMD (raise scrolls) and Diplomacy (dumping all aggro) if you're putting points in CHA. Max Bluff too, if you have enough points.

Putting points in CHA will help you avoid being CHA-helpless from Quori creatures (VoN 2, IQ, DD), which is worse at higher levels when things can kill you faster.

[unbongwah]

Sometimes on my arcanes I would take Power Atk for meleeing at low lvls, then swap it out later for Spell Pen or whatever meta I need. Carnifex + Master's Touch + Bull's STR makes short work for most mobs early on.

[Shuricain]

Sure, just take 2 Rogue and max UMD (raise scrolls) and Diplomacy (dumping all aggro) if you're putting points in CHA. Max Bluff too, if you have enough points.

Putting points in CHA will help you avoid being CHA-helpless from Quori creatures (VoN 2, IQ, DD), which is worse at higher levels when things can kill you faster.

Yeah, I'm doing wiz18/rogue2 so the slight CHA bonus is nice for UMD and diplomacy. Thanks for the insight!

[aristarchus1000]

I think charisma is a reasonable alternative, since charisma damage does happen.

If you dump strength, I would plan on always having a strength item or bulls strength buff at all times though. Ray, exhaustion, symbol...

[unbongwah]

I think charisma is a reasonable alternative, since charisma damage does happen.

I still remember the time the Quori Stalkers in VON 2 rendered my WF wiz helpless thru CHA dmg...I'm like, "I don't need to be charming - I HAVE FIREWALL!"

[Rodomonte]

Scrolls and potions are heavy.

[DynaTheCat]

you dump extra points into str because you want to be gimp of course!

Max Int & CON

Then:

CHA a better dump if you want UMD to use ressurection scrolls, greater restoration, etc.

Afraid of enfeeblement / symbol of weakness? Get a str tome / slot a colorless +6-7 str aug slot if you want & keep a +2 str rage on when you "hage" the group (haste & rage).

But in all honesty.... you're only ever gonna have a problem with enfeeble and the like if you're hit by an unlucky ray from an efreet (sands) or in citw and run into a bad weakness symbol (if you have low saves).

Otherwise..... dumping str is useless. Rather get more cha for scroll casting.

[sirgog]

Str is more important than Cha unless you want high UMD (which is less important on a Wizard than most builds as you have quickened self-healing from Negative Energy Burst or Reconstruct).

There is a LOT of Str damage in the game, and the big issue is - Cha damage doesn't matter unless you hit 0. Str damage/debuffs that knock you to 4 or 6 basically eliminate your ability to kite. If you are a Pale Master you are screwed hard, if you aren't you need to recognise IMMEDIATELY what has happened and drink a Lesser Restoration potion, and even then that time of reduced mobility is often fatal.

A +4 Str tome and +7 augment (for a 19 base Str), while helpful, isn't always enough, and the cost of adding more Str than that from items is high.


Edit: I subscribe to the '18 base Int, 16 base Con, rest in utility stats before racial mods' school of thought. Losing 25hp will impact your survivability much less than just dying every time you have Lailat's aggro and cop an efreeti Ray of Enfeeblement, or just dying when you take two hits of Str-damage poison from CITW spiders.

[phillymiket]

I would have posted earlier but i was helpless and couldn't drink a resto pot to post.

Getting stat damage happens all the time.

Gettiing "Helpless" happens much, much less.

But it's also a question of "I have to stop and drink a resto potion because I dumped Str and I am slowed and one more ray may make me helpless" -vs- "I can continue to kill these hobgoblins because I'm not yet slowed from this ray and could even take another before I'm helpless".

It's a choice.

For me, I'd rather have the strength because I don't see the value of an extra +2 UMD -vs- a safeguard against a possible scenario that could result in death.

Others may not see the value in safeguarding against a rare and usually preventable occurrence -vs- getting to UMD scrolls a level or two earlier.

You can easily get around not putting anything into strength just like you can get around not putting anything onto Cha or whatever else you would use ability points for that isn't INT or CON on a Wiz.
.

[DynaTheCat]

I would have posted earlier but i was helpless and couldn't drink a resto pot to post.

Getting stat damage happens all the time.

Gettiing "Helpless" happens much, much less.

But it's also a question of "I have to stop and drink a resto potion because I dumped Str and I am slowed and one more ray may make me helpless" -vs- "I can continue to kill these hobgoblins because I'm not yet slowed from this ray and could even take another before I'm helpless".

It's a choice.

For me, I'd rather have the strength because I don't see the value of an extra +2 UMD -vs- a safeguard against a possible scenario that could result in death.

Others may not see the value in safeguarding against a rare and usually preventable occurrence -vs- getting to UMD scrolls a level or two earlier.

You can easily get around not putting anything into strength just like you can get around not putting anything onto Cha or whatever else you would use ability points for that isn't INT or CON on a Wiz.
.

[This]

Except that dex or wis dump = no no

Either str or cha.

[Nitesco]

18-20 ending Str seems to be the sweet spot I've found.

[sirgog]

[This]

Except that dex or wis dump = no no

Either str or cha.

A Pale Master can completely dump Dex and Wis with no consequences of note. Insightful Reflexes covers the Reflex save, and Lich form makes you immune to almost all Will save spells.

An Archmage may want to consider their Will save - Mason the Silent in Fall of Truth is HORRIBLE to fight if you can't make his (obscenely high DC) Discoball saves often.

[DynaTheCat]

A Pale Master can completely dump Dex and Wis with no consequences of note. Insightful Reflexes covers the Reflex save, and Lich form makes you immune to almost all Will save spells.

An Archmage may want to consider their Will save - Mason the Silent in Fall of Truth is HORRIBLE to fight if you can't make his (obscenely high DC) Discoball saves often.

Isn't the consequence of dumping into wis or dex.... you won't be able to dump into str or cha?

So... you lose a few?