Abusing game mechanics to complete EE

[patang01]

Broken quests is one thing. I don't see anything wrong in using the environment against critters. It is what it is. Critters cheat as well; unlimited SP. Red named immune against everything etc. So finding a way to use the environment is like the tactics of defense vs offense. It's always an evolution.

However to exploit game mechanics to be more powerful then anyone else can be with is not WAI - that's cheating. I don't care; I mean I play my game and I don't envy people who play and complete anything on EE while cheating. I just consider their accomplishment worth spit in those cases. But it'll be up to Turbine to see if it's worth fixing. I will continue to play my game. And cheaters will find ways to justify what they're doing.

[Memnir]

So we can officially declare blur, displacement, incorporeal, DR, PRR, leap of faith, protection from elements and resistance, evasion, improved evasion, crowd control and ddoor all exploits? This is official now? Thank you for clarifying the difference for me.

.
.
.

.
.

[Vellrad]

They are not doing it because they can feel cool.
They are doing this, so they can ransack EE chests fast and sell EE loot for a lot of plat/reds/whatever or TP codes.

[SableShadow]

Depends on the details.

I can recall someone telling me I was exploiting in Korromar because I could range down into the pit of (at the time) crazy damaging elite spiders.
"So? They should have brought a bow, too. Sucks to be them."

[sigtrent]

I'm not a fan of using exploits but I can't say I've never done it. Especially if the normal game mechanic is boring or just plain no fun and the exploit is a good time.

That's rare though. Most of the time the exploit is easy but boring and the normal method is challenging and interesting. So... I rarely use exploits. I avoid quests I can't handle in a more or less "normal" way. I play to have fun, not to "win" And if I wanted to win then cheating wouldn't feel like I met the challenge.

[Eighnuss]

internet memes

How about arguing any of the valid points instead of seeing obvious sarcasm and deciding that is what needs to be challenged, with internet memes?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

First: I have no idea about any exploits you may or may not be talking about.

I am just going to talk about tactics and my feelings on how PUGs do quests.

Every army in history has used terrain to their advantage. They also use shield walls.
These are perfectly valid tactics.

It is only Turbines failure to adjust monster AI that is a problem.

Seriously, monsters need to realise that they cannot reach a target... and change targets.

They need to have a survival sense.. to move to a new spot when taking too much damage in one spot.

Ok...
Now using terrain is valid... but using an obvious invisible geometry spot is wrong IMO.

Doing something to purposely bug out a monsters is wrong IMO.

Another thing:
Not all monsters should have ranged attacks. Like Dogs for instance.

Not all monsters should be smart. But all monsters should feel pain and want to survive. In fact, th edumber they are, the more likely they should stop trying to attack us and start trying to stay alive!




But... even with good tactics.
Any time something gets abused by players, they shoould change the quest IMO.

Boring, boring, boring to have people insist that "we have to do it this way... it's easy!"
over and over again.... forcing others to use your easy button.

Doesn't matter if it is good and valid tactics or not. That is a boring game and causes bad feelings among players.




On the flip side it is also boring to fight a monster that has a bazzilian HP.
And if it hits super hard against everyone who tries to fight it, well.. you leave people no choice but to find a way to overcome it.

Also, not every fight on EE needs to be super difficult.
In fact, I would really like to see more variety to types of challenges in dungeons.

Hordes of minions to blast out of existance with ease, and elite troops that are more difficult.

Having to single pull and use terrain for every fight is boring too.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

From a PM I had with Tolero a while back on another exploit that was being discussed:

Originally Posted by Tolero
This one is pretty straight forward according to our list:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exploit List
Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
The description I saw in the thread is not the same as the "cheesy and may be changed" category of:
"'Perching' on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive."

In perching (considered simply cheesy rather than something TOS violating in our book), you must still be in some type of danger - if a ranged creature threw something at you or cast an AOE spell on the area you're at, you would get hit by it.

Hope this helps to clarify.

In other words, if it helps mitigate damage, as long as you are still "in danger", it is a tactic. If you can effectively go AFK while auto-attacking, whether by melee, range, or spell, then it is an exploit. The particular subject of the PM above was in reference to a perch spot in an older quest where some giants could not reach you, and their ranged attacks could not hit you, making you effectively immune to damage once you killed the casters...that is an exploit, as nobody in the party is in danger or can be harmed.

Hope that helps, since some people are just being obtuse and unhelpful. Usually those types KNOW it's an exploit, but are either deluded or simply want to make excuses so that they can believe they are "tacticians" rather than just cheaters. Shield wall=tactics...choke point=tactics...getting a mob stuck or perching so they cannot reach you with any attacks=NOT tactics.

[phillymiket]

they cheated and ended the quest killing a boss that could not touch them. Where is the glory and challenge in that?)

Don't know what happened.

Do you mean like in "Red Willow Ruins" where there is a spot (or used to be) where you can hit the mobs but they can't hit you with anything that does damage?

Using peach spots and geometry to kill mobs is NOT against the rules, at least I believe.

I always thought the thing was that he boss remained "responsive".

i.e. If you "bug out" the boss so he twitches around helplessly on purpose then you are violating the rules but just "finding a good spot" is fine.

Edit - well, I have been informed by another player that I'm wrong in that the old way Red Willow was run back in the day was specifically labeled an xploit by Tolero.

So there you go. Sorry for above missinfo.
.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

From a PM I had with Tolero a while back on another exploit that was being discussed:

Originally Posted by Tolero
This one is pretty straight forward according to our list:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exploit List
Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
The description I saw in the thread is not the same as the "cheesy and may be changed" category of:
"'Perching' on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive."

In perching (considered simply cheesy rather than something TOS violating in our book), you must still be in some type of danger - if a ranged creature threw something at you or cast an AOE spell on the area you're at, you would get hit by it.

Hope this helps to clarify.

In other words, if it helps mitigate damage, as long as you are still "in danger", it is a tactic. If you can effectively go AFK while auto-attacking, whether by melee, range, or spell, then it is an exploit. The particular subject of the PM above was in reference to a perch spot in an older quest where some giants could not reach you, and their ranged attacks could not hit you, making you effectively immune to damage once you killed the casters...that is an exploit, as nobody in the party is in danger or can be harmed.

Hope that helps, since some people are just being obtuse and unhelpful. Usually those types KNOW it's an exploit, but are either deluded or simply want to make excuses so that they can believe they are "tacticians" rather than just cheaters. Shield wall=tactics...choke point=tactics...getting a mob stuck or perching so they cannot reach you with any attacks=NOT tactics.

Well, a Dragon shouldn't be able fit through a small door...
but.. the Dragon shouldn't stand there and get shot at either.

Many perches can be mostly safe, since the monsters are too stupid to move to a different spot.

For instance, archers, who only have a straight shot ranged attack can usually be protected from while shooting at them.

Casters who have certain types of spell options are more difficult.
Quite often I can find a spot that blocks rays and fireballs, but not curses and inflict wounds spells.

Some monsters do move around every now and then. They have gotten better at this over time.

There are few spots that you can go truly AFK in.

and for many other spots, it is kinda funny that players will not bring heal pots, which would easily undo any damage you take in a lot of perched spots. (I've run out of pots on EE though. )

[fco-karatekid]

This thread reminded me of...

"Captain Custer, this is Captain Sitting Bull. Captain Sitting Bull, this is Captain Custer.

Call the toss, Cus.

He calls heads; it's tails. You lose the toss. Heh! What'll you do there, Sit?

Okay, Captain Sitting Bull says that you and your boys have to wait at the bottom of the hill while him and all the Indians in the world ride right down on you."

Hat Tip: Bill Cosby

[Therigar]

Creating a situation in which you can damage a mob but they can not damage use has been defined by Turbine as an exploit.

Not exactly true.

Turbine has specifically stated that using a perch is not an exploit. Doing so often lets you range mobs in safety. There are several that let you dart out, cast an AoE, and run back to safety.

None of those put the player at risk and all are perfectly within the allowed game play.

[Bilger]

From a PM I had with Tolero a while back on another exploit that was being discussed:

Originally Posted by Tolero
This one is pretty straight forward according to our list:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exploit List
Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
The description I saw in the thread is not the same as the "cheesy and may be changed" category of:
"'Perching' on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive."

In perching (considered simply cheesy rather than something TOS violating in our book), you must still be in some type of danger - if a ranged creature threw something at you or cast an AOE spell on the area you're at, you would get hit by it.

Hope this helps to clarify.

In other words, if it helps mitigate damage, as long as you are still "in danger", it is a tactic. If you can effectively go AFK while auto-attacking, whether by melee, range, or spell, then it is an exploit. The particular subject of the PM above was in reference to a perch spot in an older quest where some giants could not reach you, and their ranged attacks could not hit you, making you effectively immune to damage once you killed the casters...that is an exploit, as nobody in the party is in danger or can be harmed.

Hope that helps, since some people are just being obtuse and unhelpful. Usually those types KNOW it's an exploit, but are either deluded or simply want to make excuses so that they can believe they are "tacticians" rather than just cheaters. Shield wall=tactics...choke point=tactics...getting a mob stuck or perching so they cannot reach you with any attacks=NOT tactics.

This is the answer to all the arguments if fits with what Tolero said then you are exploiting. Not hard to understand.

[Therigar]

Seeking a location that due to a design flaw in the geometry or AI leaves you invulnerable = exploit

How is a person supposed to know if it is intentional or accidental? Is it a design flaw or is it put there with forethought?

If such a spot exists and a person believes it to be wrong they can bug report it. If it goes away in an update then it was not intended. If it remains then it was intended.

There are a lot of things in the environment that players never find because they only follow one approach -- that of brute force.

Labeling alternatives as exploits does not make them exploits.

[Memnir]

How about arguing any of the valid points instead of seeing obvious sarcasm and deciding that is what needs to be challenged, with internet memes?

Make you a deal - present an actual valid point, and I'll present a valid counter-point.
Do that, and Ill happily oblige. Till then... the sloth speaks true.

[Therigar]

The particular subject of the PM above was in reference to a perch spot in an older quest where some giants could not reach you, and their ranged attacks could not hit you, making you effectively immune to damage once you killed the casters.

Wrong.

Since you could be in danger from the casters it is not an exploit. That you choose to kill them first and then are out of range of the attacks of the others is simply good strategy.

The key is that the players WERE in danger -- until the casters died. The presence of danger is enough.

[Bilger]

How is a person supposed to know if it is intentional or accidental? Is it a design flaw or is it put there with forethought?

If such a spot exists and a person believes it to be wrong they can bug report it. If it goes away in an update then it was not intended. If it remains then it was intended.

There are a lot of things in the environment that players never find because they only follow one approach -- that of brute force.

Labeling alternatives as exploits does not make them exploits.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=28

That post linked explains it.

I have always felt if it feels like a exploit 90% chance it is and time to report it.

If don't report it and keep using then you are a exploiter plain and simple and action should be taken by Turbine.

[Bilger]

Wrong.

Since you could be in danger from the casters it is not an exploit. That you choose to kill them first and then are out of range of the attacks of the others is simply good strategy.

The key is that the players WERE in danger -- until the casters died. The presence of danger is enough.

If after the casters died and you had no dangr because mobs just stood there and let you kill them with no danger to yourself or them not moving out of your damage then it is a exploit. Bad AI yes but you are exploiting at that point.

[Gkar]

Not exactly true.

Turbine has specifically stated that using a perch is not an exploit. Doing so often lets you range mobs in safety. There are several that let you dart out, cast an AoE, and run back to safety.

None of those put the player at risk and all are perfectly within the allowed game play.

That's a different situation, you had to run out to harm the mob, during which time you were in danager. This is in the "cheese" category which is allowed but subject to Turbine fixing the cheese in the future.

If hower you could caste the AoE and hit them, without running out, and without them being able to target you in any way, well that's the no-no territory.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

If it goes away in an update then it was not intended. If it remains then it was intended.

This is incorrect. The Tolero quote I posted above is in reference to a perch spot, which Turbine considers to be an exploit, that has been around for 7 years. (I believe...I did not know of it until about 3 years ago) Some exploits, like that one, are simply not game-breaking enough to fix immediately. If you do not believe me, feel free to PM Tolero or Cordovan about whichever quest you have a question on, and they will answer, or just PM Tolero this thread and I'm sure she will respond. Otherwise, bug reporting is a great idea, but it most likely will not see a quick response, unless it is something big.