Multiclass 101: Design, Evolution, Progress

[Lonnbeimnech]

for the arti

you cant use ranged weapons in wolf form

you cant use a rune arm since that would break druidic oath

the best weapon buff for wolf form is is magic fang, since at level 20 it adds +5 to your weapon and shield

and I'm not 100% on this, but I think you can't do traps in animal form either.

for the wizard

wolf form cant use wands or scrolls

wolf form increases the cool down of spells by 2.5 times, so even buffing will take ages...

I didn't see you list quicken, but took extend, a better way to extend spells on a level 9 wiz, is to take 9 more wiz levels, ditto druid

and what spells would a level 9 wiz get that are worth using? all the good buffs you can get clickys for, so that leaves offencive spells.... so I guess you can slot firewall and icestorm twice, since druids get those spells too


I could roll up a dwarven charisma based barbarian ranger wizard, shuriken build, and maybe we could group some time?

[voodoogroves]

EDIT: and heres a question for those claiming thats it the build they have a problem with, What heavily multiclassed build that isnt already well accepted or that you didnt make yourself would you not think is gimp, the answer is none, because its not your design, because you dont have the foresight to see the synergies, and because you feel threated by anything different.

snip

SO, no matter what build i used for this design tutorial i wouldve gotten trolled, and you know it, i knew it when i started.

Dude, it totally isn't your build. It's all your attitude and pre-emptive aggression.

Here's some for everyone reading this thread - experienced players kinda already know this (though they may not have said it outloud) and for new players they need to take it with a grain of salt and consider their position.

• How well a build performs at cap / epic levels is only partially determined by the heroic class and build break down. Epic destinies are that strong. What 01000010 isn't saying directly is that his build is built for passing capability with heroic features, but is aiming for specific ED abilities that are tied to character level and not class levels. This is no different than people building non-DC wizards using Shiradi or others, no different than a dozen different builds using THF/PA/C/GC/IC/OC running in Fury or LD, etc.
• What is different is how functionally useful of a build 01000010 is suggesting. He's clearly ok with some sacrifices, as he's building for a set amount of tricks on his pony. People are disagreeing because ponies can have many, many more tricks.
• What is also different is that 01000010 (having played a bit) and any other longer-term player is going to know the game, the content, the mechanics, the timing on animations, etc. and can probably level a ham sandwich to cap. The new player reading this, will not be able to. The vet will be able to solo far better than the new player, plus also have friends and contacts that will at least give him a chance since they know him and would assume he's got some plan that differentiates him from the person who's just joined their group blindly.

With all of the above, a vet can level a ham sandwich - say a WIS-built Bard ... and will still have decent GMOF abilities. An INT-based barbarian could still rock consume and shadow manipulation.

None of that means an INT-based barb is very efficient ... but that's ok, it'll still probably work though it may be capability-limited in other areas ... and may not be useful in all content.

[Hutoth]

any.. ..longer-term player.. ..can probably level a ham sandwich to cap

Must try pure ham sandwich for next life!

Okay, sure I've done a deep-splash hamwich, but I want to try out the capstone DR10/pickles

[cforce]

You say that a bunch but without being a drow 20 wiz PM with litany you're 6 INT off "max possibilities". As you don't want to be meleeing with low fortification, you probably aren't using INT yugo pots either so really you're 8 INT behind. If you're using your twists for sense weakness and other melee abilities, you'll be down 10 INT. As there isn't any good melee gear with +3 insightful and +8 enhancement intelligence you're either taking a further hit to your melee abilities or your survivability by spending 2 gear slots getting those, or you're putting yourself down 12 INT or more with +2/+7.

Go away troll.

Wow. It's a shame, 010 -- I like it when people think out of the box, and was really tickled to read about your insight in another thread that some divine/arcane spellpower combos stack. Creative thinking is a good thing.

Unfortunately, your attitude here is much louder than your ideas. Enough that I'm willing to throw away one to avoid the other. First person to go on my forum ignore list in 2 years, congrats! Try a break from the defensiveness and a healthy dose of introspection.

[oweieie]

Must try pure ham sandwich for next life!

Okay, sure I've done a deep-splash hamwich, but I want to try out the capstone DR10/pickles

What is the breakdown for ham sandwich?

I'm thinking barb in the middle for the meat and... paladin and fvs for the white bread? Could swap cleric for the paladin if you don't want to buy the alignment tome for the cheese on your sandwich. What race is mustard? Dwarf?

[Matuse]

PL: Porky

You were a ham sandwich in a previous life. You get +2 diplomacy and bluff while interacting with any meat eater. Birds of a feather flock together, and you have a 5% increased chance of seeing Tasty Hams and Kargon Tasty Hams when looting chests. This feat stacks up to three times.

Feat: Hamming it up.

You remember more about your life as a ham sandwich. 5 times per rest, you can burp out a fragrant meaty cloud which causes all meat-eating monsters in a large radius to make a Will save (10+Character level+Charisma Modifier) or stand dazed with their mouth hanging open and drooling. "Mmmmmm...sandwich".

[RavenStormclaw]

I'm going to bite the bullet and jump in here. Your going Druid for the wolf melee capabilities yet you have no investment in wisdom. Yes I realize you can use items and enhancements to make minimum levels for casting. However, some of the best wolf form spells which make up a significant portion of overall wolf form dps and effectiveness have saves based on wisdom. With no investment in wisdom you're dcs will be sub par and you will loose effectiveness.

[bigolbear]

Must try pure ham sandwich for next life!

Okay, sure I've done a deep-splash hamwich, but I want to try out the capstone DR10/pickles

personaly I just cant help splashing a little cheese in there


@ the op:
Your generic principles on multiclassing are reasonably sound for producing 'viable' builds.

your build itself will cope, and is fine as a flavour build. Its not 'top tier' at any specific aspect, which is what some here are getting at, I think you need to be honest and admit that as well.

Id realy like to see you do a different thread where you expound on your creation process, both for 'flavour builds' and 'top tier' - rather than present us a build. That could make for interesting reading.

either way reading this has inspired me to write a similar thread - where ill discuss the process of generating builds, and the distinction between how to build a viable flavour build and how to build a top tier multiclass. Ill update this with a link when its done.

I am an avid multiclasser, I too feel the pain when some dullard cant understand a complex character.

[bartharok]

When it comes to multiclass toons im godawful. Thats why i wait and see how they perform before commenting. After one run i can only notice what i should be looking for, and after 5 or so i can make questions. Before that i wont make any conclusions, since even the best toon can have a bad run or 2.

[bigolbear]

update with a link.

Im now writing up a serious guide for 'how to make a multiclass build' - as I feel that what the op's title portrayed was a worthwhile topic.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...15#post4913215

all constructive comments welcome,

[01000010]

At this point im about to break into epic levels, then next decision is where to start, seeing how i went with maxed int for build ill start with an epic destiny will have some nice synergies and link me to shadowdancer eventually, Draconic Incarnation.

So time for a stat breakdown for int, I already have every item i need to achieve this Int at level 25 other than yugo pots, wether i use yugo pots will be situational.

18 Int at creation +6 lvl ups +2 Wiz Enhc +1 Human Enhc +8 Stat Item +3 Insightful +1 Exceptional +4 Tome +3 Int Raises from within ED = 46 (+18 Mod) Optional +2 Yugo = 48(+19 Mod)

The Big Damage moves in DI ED have DC = 20 + 1/2 charactaer lvl + Int Mod, so my DCs will be 50, 51 with Yugo Int, Very close to the DCs a full caster would have, One or two DC off at most (Like a warforged caster DC Vs that of an otherwise identical drow caster).

Spellpower Depends a lot on gear, but this build can raise it by 130 from enhancements, which is 10 higher than a pure sorcerer can with capstone, however, a pure sorc has some savant tricks that can increase damage by a lot more than spellpower if in the right element.

Critwise this build can get 3% higher crit percentage (12% from enhancements) and 20% higher crit damage than a pure caster can (.95 from enhancements opposed to a pure casters .75 increase), does this equate to more damage from the ED Abilities? I suspect sometimes yes, but likely with exceptions.

Although it may very well just be a typo some abilities say damage is increased by caster level, others say character level, i suspect caster level is derived from character level (and therby caster lvl can still be increased outside of character lvl tho its base is character lvl). If those abilities are based on caster level alone (and unaffected by character level), than its up in the air what will happen damagewise with this build, because it has 2 caster classes, each at 9. Will caster level be 9? add them together for 18? Or character level + any caster lvl increasing ed perks? If i were to gues id say the last, primarily because of how dc for the abilities is derived, but also because there are too many variables otherwise classwise for the other two to be entirely sensical.

Spoilers: Shadow Manipulation DC will be 57-58 when i get to that destiny, Melee Crits will be in the 1000s in LD and FOTW(with about 40% doublestrike chance), Quickened Self heals around 500, and dot heals 100-200 per tick.

I will eventually make short video clips documenting the damage and healing capabilities of the build in various EDs.

[01000010]

So i do a few calculations and everyone has to lick their wounds now? Took me two minutes, TWO MINUTES to show the dcs and spellpower that others simply speculated on and felt the need to harass me about despite it being so easy to figure out, FYI, i knew the dcs all along as well as the spellpower, but i wanted to see how the mob mentality prevailed against an unusual build that takes a tiny bit of thought to figure out.

Isnt anyone gonna tell me i wont do the melee dps ive claimed now? Or the heals? Several said my heals would be worthless, dont you want to pipe in one more time before i prove you ignorant?

Here are some gems from this thread, be proud.


Viisari
"You know in EVE Online we had a specific term for people like you.

The term was "EFT warrior", though I guess in your case you're actually going through with this lunacy.

A pure rogue would do just about everything better than this build, including self-healing due to having access heal scrolls with scroll mastery IV."



Oweieiei
"You're wrong. The DPS is utterly worthless, the casting is worse, the survivability is low. The build is a joke.

You post this pile of vomit and call me the troll? LOL!
Quote"


Darkforte
"Not to say the build is completely useless though. It can keep haste up on the melee on ANY quest in the game! Also it can cast DD on rusted blades farms."


Moltier
"You havent showed us the gear setup, nor your stats, like DCs. Without those, you just dont have a build, just a naked gimp with pathetic DCs and next to zero dps.
Show us the entire build, and learn how to post a complete build."


Lonnbeimnech
"I could roll up a dwarven charisma based barbarian ranger wizard, shuriken build, and maybe we could group some time?"


Cforce
"Wow. It's a shame, 010 -- I like it when people think out of the box, and was really tickled to read about your insight in another thread that some divine/arcane spellpower combos stack. Creative thinking is a good thing.

Unfortunately, your attitude here is much louder than your ideas. Enough that I'm willing to throw away one to avoid the other. First person to go on my forum ignore list in 2 years, congrats! Try a break from the defensiveness and a healthy dose of introspection."


That last one is hilarious, basically it reads "i love youre insight, but id rather remain unaware than see you cop an attitude with all these people that have been so "nice" to you so im gonna have to put you on ignore list", of course the guy that said the post was vomit, well thats acceptable, lol.

Feel free to make more baseless assumptions about the build, but be prepared to be proven wrong, because it will happen when i get around to showing what it can do.

If i had to guess, most of the people who hit me with the personal attacks and made assertions about the builds abilities that were entirely incorrect likely already lacked any credibility in this game, but if you feel you do have some credibility i advise you do your homework before attacking me, because as ive stated b4, i will expose.

[Azarddoze]

Man... I give up. After all these posts on your threads you still haven't understand that people aren't bashing (only) your builds but your antisocial 12 years old attitude...

You deserve what's coming.
Let's the fun begin.

[Kadriel]

Although it may very well just be a typo some abilities say damage is increased by caster level, others say character level, i suspect caster level is derived from character level (and therby caster lvl can still be increased outside of character lvl tho its base is character lvl). If those abilities are based on caster level alone (and unaffected by character level), than its up in the air what will happen damagewise with this build, because it has 2 caster classes, each at 9. Will caster level be 9? add them together for 18? Or character level + any caster lvl increasing ed perks? If i were to gues id say the last, primarily because of how dc for the abilities is derived, but also because there are too many variables otherwise classwise for the other two to be entirely sensical.

Caster level is equal to the level you have in that particular casting class. If you are casting a wizard wall of fire, for exemple, it will be equal your wizard level, and even though druids can also cast it, druids levels won't count. There are a few things that can add to caster level of certain spells, like, sorcs PrE

[01000010]

Let it come.

Funny you could read some of the quotes from the last post i made and come up with that reply, At best id put most of the posts in this thread as 8yr old bully material, except at least an 8 yr old bully will eventually get beat down for his verbal abuse, angry little forum posters use the anonymity to be as vicious as possible with no real threat of repriasal, that is cowardice.

And the attacks were aimed at the build, go back and read, pretty plain to see, and it is due to an odd multiclass build at its core.

The post wasnt even meant to focus on builds, i promised a lot of people in game i would show how i come up with my odd builds that are strong on ee, i knew right off the bat id be harassed by a bunch of people that wouldnt even bother to do some basic addition to see how it all added up.

[01000010]

Caster level is equal to the level you have in that particular casting class. If you are casting a wizard wall of fire, for exemple, it will be equal your wizard level, and even though druids can also cast it, druids levels won't count. There are a few things that can add to caster level of certain spells, like, sorcs PrE

Correct, but im referring to ED abilities here, very few of which are based on class, so it gets a little vague on how it will work out, ill show test results eventually.

[Chai]

Your post at 02-28-2013, 07:37 AM was excellent. It explained the build synergies quite well.

Your post right after it, at 02-28-2013, 03:26 PM is why your build threads turn into pile ons in less than 2 pages.

The first post stands on its own to the point where the second one wasnt even needed. If I was in your shoes, Id post a video of these off the beaten path builds tearing stuff apart in EE quests - its the easiest way to silence the detractors.

[IronClan]

Best popcorn gif EVAR.


I just want to do a summery of this thread as I see it, before it is locked or troll bombed as one post seems to be threatening.

1) 010 comes off as abrasive and preemptive...

2) Vague and unspecified objection to the build. Most have been really weak and unsubstantial.

3) Plenty of off topic shots, that are rightly characterized as trolling here.

4) if the OP took the high road and refused to acknowledge the trolls most of them would look like fools, but instead the OP wrestles with them. I admit this is one of those easier said than done things... Oh well it butters the popcorn if nothing else.

5) Posters using terms like "everyone" and "we" to describe opposition to the OP's posts need to start talking for themselves and maybe coming up with an argument . You sound like pile-ons.


6) Attacking the OP in a general way and then saying "I give up" as if you at any point had anything to contribute that wasn't just trying to put the OP down, is silly and makes you look like the troll the OP claims you are.

7) Expanding on #2 basically if you can't bring enough specific "down sides" and examples of how the build wont be effective then you're just trolling and using generalized cop outs that amount to:

"I don't like it, I don't know why I don't like it, but I'm sure there's a reason"...

Check yourself, perhaps the reason you don't like it is specific to your chosen play style or narrowly focused content you like to play. IMO the OP has a clear point about unimaginative knee jerk opposition to multiclassing. The trolls in this thread seem to prove his point.

[squishwizzy]

All I wanna know is...


...who do I have to bully to get that ham sammich that everyone keeps talking about?

[Chai]

Posters using terms like "everyone" and "we" to describe opposition to the OP's posts need to start talking for themselves and maybe coming up with an argument . You sound like pile-ons.

I wish I had more room in my sig.