Theorycraft build - HOrc Cleric 17 / Monk 2 / Ranger 1

[Loriac]

Inspired by the juggernaut concept, I wanted to put together a fleshie analogue that has good melee capabilities as well as top-notch raid healing.

Cleric 17 / Monk 2 / Ranger 1 36pt build

+4 Tomes for all stats. 17 dex required to hit Manyshot requirements

Str 20, all level ups here
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 6
Wis 11
Cha 12

Feats: PA, Cleave, G Cleave, IC: Slashing, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Toughness, Quicken, Emp Healing, choice of either OC or Stunning blow

Cleric 17 for the healing (access to L9 spells). Monk 2 for the feats. Evasion is nice, but is optional in that heavy armor is likely to be worn most of the time unless the situation calls for evasion (in which case it may be prudent to twist in +6 reflex saves). Ranger 1 for bow strength, giving low cost access to manyshot.

Radiant Servant PRE taken to maximise healing potential. All relevant HOrc enhancements for 2H fighting taken. Cha of 16 (12 + 4 tome) allows divine might 2 for when 4 damage is worth the hassle of the slow cast time.

Optionally, wis could be dumped fully down to 8, and points put into Int to allow UMD and some balance (as well as concentration).

This build has full raid healing capability, decent melee (particularly when in LD or FotW) and access to manyshot burst damage.

Thoughts?

[Steveohio]

personally i think you give up way too much of what a cleric offers to gain manyshot and ow crit.

not sure if you've run a cleric before, but with a tanked wis, and low chr youll have both a small sp bar, and a lack of turns compared to pretty much most every other cleric out there.

Its possible to make it work, but you have to budget your heals much more than you normally would.

Personally, id forget about manyshot.

I think the nice thing about half orc battle clerics, is the ability to keep both wis and str at functional levels.

The net return on investment would probably be much higher if you were to start something like for 36 pt builds:
18
8
14
10
16
12

with level ups into wis.

[MRMechMan]

Well, I agree that 20 str is a bit min/max for a build that has a lot to consider-ranged damage, melee damage, healing...and a lot of abilities to consider-wis for spellcasting, cha for bursts,possibly int for skills, dex for manyshot, con for..well, con...and str for damage. That's all 6 abilities...I would find it hard to justify dumping 16 points into one stat.

But, I disagree with steveohio, sure you won't be nearly as heal capable as a pure heal spec cleric-or even a casting cleric-but manyshot and good melee damage is worth picking up and overall healing ability should remain solid.

[Loriac]

Well, I agree that 20 str is a bit min/max for a build that has a lot to consider-ranged damage, melee damage, healing...and a lot of abilities to consider-wis for spellcasting, cha for bursts,possibly int for skills, dex for manyshot, con for..well, con...and str for damage. That's all 6 abilities...I would find it hard to justify dumping 16 points into one stat.

But, I disagree with steveohio, sure you won't be nearly as heal capable as a pure heal spec cleric-or even a casting cleric-but manyshot and good melee damage is worth picking up and overall healing ability should remain solid.

Stat distribution assumes +4 tomes across all stats. I'd definitely drop str down if this wasn't available. However, with +4 tomes, you hit 17 dex for manyshot, 16 cha for DM2, and say 16-17 Wis depending on how many ap you want to burn.

The one stat I was in two minds about was Int. I could certainly see an alternative stat block as

Str 19
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 12

On an Int of 6, I think you end up with 2 skills - max'd concentration, and reasonably high balance. Jump is going to be adequate due to the high str modifier this build will have. If Int was put to 8, you could get to 11 UMD too, but this seems of limited value on a cleric build. I'm really not seeing what other skills you'd need to invest in however.

Wis of 12 (or 14-16 even) doesn't really net you that many more spell points, and offensive casting is limited to divine punishment and possibly prayer. As such, further investment in Wis seems marginal. With the originally suggested Wis of 11, you'd have 28 with items before other buffs (11 + 4 tome + 8 item + 2 insightful + 1 exceptional + 2 enhancement from cleric levels). This isn't high by any means, but isn't exactly dumped either.

Raising cha beyond 12 is expensive on a HOrc, and apart from DM3 (assuming Cha 14 + 4 tome) doesn't get you much. As it stands, you'd have Cha 28 with items easily before other buffs (12 + 4 tome + 8 item + 2 insightful + 1 exceptional + 1 enhancement from cleric levels).

[giftie]

I apologize for answering to such an old thread, but I wanted to give some feedback regarding this build.

I was interested in the concept of a battle cleric with Manyshot, but didn't want to do it on a TR or with expensive tomes, so I did it as a first lifer with only +2 tomes, which spread me a bit too thin and necessitated dumping CHA. My stat distribution as follows:

STR 18 (5 levelups here)
DEX 14 (1 levelup here)
CON 16
INT 6
WIS 14
CHA 6

It could be argued it's not the same build at all, but the feats and enhancements (minus Divine Might) stay the same. (Incidentally, dropping Divine Might might actually serve to future proof this build for the enhancement pass.)

It is not as strong as my Juggernaut. Not having access to UMD, enhanced clickies and trap skills limits solo ability a lot. Damage wise, between losing Battle Engineer, Tenser's (which gives alchemical bonus rather than the enhancement bonus of Divine Power), weapon enhancements etc, it doesn't perform as well either.

But it does require much less management and in the end is easier and - more importantly - much more fun to play. It doesn't compare that well to a Juggernaut (and the "Jigglenaut" build might be a better fleshie analogue), but it's one of the most powerful battle clerics I've tried. It's easily one of my favourite characters at the moment, and I recommend it strongly for everyone who wants to try a solo build that's not Yet Another Juggernaut.

[Loriac]

I apologize for answering to such an old thread, but I wanted to give some feedback regarding this build.

I was interested in the concept of a battle cleric with Manyshot, but didn't want to do it on a TR or with expensive tomes, so I did it as a first lifer with only +2 tomes, which spread me a bit too thin and necessitated dumping CHA. My stat distribution as follows:

STR 18 (5 levelups here)
DEX 14 (1 levelup here)
CON 16
INT 6
WIS 14
CHA 6

It could be argued it's not the same build at all, but the feats and enhancements (minus Divine Might) stay the same. (Incidentally, dropping Divine Might might actually serve to future proof this build for the enhancement pass.)

It is not as strong as my Juggernaut. Not having access to UMD, enhanced clickies and trap skills limits solo ability a lot. Damage wise, between losing Battle Engineer, Tenser's (which gives alchemical bonus rather than the enhancement bonus of Divine Power), weapon enhancements etc, it doesn't perform as well either.

But it does require much less management and in the end is easier and - more importantly - much more fun to play. It doesn't compare that well to a Juggernaut (and the "Jigglenaut" build might be a better fleshie analogue), but it's one of the most powerful battle clerics I've tried. It's easily one of my favourite characters at the moment, and I recommend it strongly for everyone who wants to try a solo build that's not Yet Another Juggernaut.

Thanks for the feedback/update.

When I looked at this concept a while back, I thought it would be difficult on anything less than a 36pt build with at least +3 tomes (and +4 being better for the initial stat distribution), so its interesting that the core feats are strong enough for it to work even on a 1st lifer.

I think with the better stats on the 36pt version and consequent access to things like divine might, you can equalise some of the gap to the juggernaut's melee output. Whilst you don't have tensers on this build, divine might is broadly similar in damage output. Its a pain in the neck to use, but so are divine power clickies on a jugg (which the cleric casts quickly from the blue bar), so overall it becomes a wash.

My experience with the juggernaut is that during heroic levelling its performance is meh at best - I rolled one up straight after doing a pure arty life, and the difference up to level 20 was night and day - where my arty was smashing through content, the jugg was painful at some level ranges. At levels 20+ this reverses however, but the power comes from FotW rather than the class levels. On top of this, warforged doesn't give you much extra dps beyond the improved power attack whereas HOrc gives you much higher strength and a bonus when using 2H weapons. On a 36pt version of this build with +4 tomes and max'd EDs, I'd expect broadly similar melee output to a jugg with similar equipment levels - the jugg should in theory bring higher burst damage during manyshot as it has a bigger feat budget to spend on ranged, but sustained dps in melee phases is likely to be a wash. The jugg has more flexibility on weapons (due to full arty weapons buffs), which can make a difference to dps, but again this is mitigated once you have access to top-end and upgraded weapons.

On traps etc, the thinking behind this build was that bringing full clerical healing to a group is more desirable, so whilst solo'ing may be harder, you don't need to (though that does ofc change your playstyle to bring both healing and melee to the table). However, a big factor in all this is evasion. With evasion, traps generally aren't too painful during levelling. Out of curiousity, what would UMD bring extra when soloing? I was originally mulling a slightly higher Int and lower Str to grab UMD at half ranks on this build, but in the end decided that UMD for clerics wasn't worth the investment.

On balance, and probably the biggest reason however not to roll this build, is other players' expectations. A jugg is a very low maintenance build in the sense that no one in a group expects anything from a jugg beyond deadly weapons. A (battle)cleric however can get a lot more grief from players who think you should be hjealing them. Its why I think a paladin version of the 2monk/1ranger concept is probably easier and less stressful to play if you don't want to play warforged.

[Ancient]

Minority opinion here:

You are fine on healing: Aura + Heal scrolls take care of 99% of required healing during heroic level grouping (probably even raids too). If you need to step it up during a raid, potions are an option. At epic levels, there are several low mana cost healing options available.

I think human might be a competitive race choice. The extra feat could go towards improved crit ranged (or something else), and the extra skill point will be very useful post enhancement pass when you will want to max out the healing skill.

[giftie]

On balance, and probably the biggest reason however not to roll this build, is other players' expectations. A jugg is a very low maintenance build in the sense that no one in a group expects anything from a jugg beyond deadly weapons. A (battle)cleric however can get a lot more grief from players who think you should be hjealing them. Its why I think a paladin version of the 2monk/1ranger concept is probably easier and less stressful to play if you don't want to play warforged.

Forum ate my rather lengthy reply, but in a nutshell: I agree completely. I like to heal, but I don't like the assumption that I must be doing it in every raid.

Rather than trying a paladin version, I TR:ed into a druid centered staff/elemental build. Noone expects druids to heal, just to be self-sufficient. (Actually, during my second life I'll just go 18/2 dronk, since my preferred version of the build would be a 36-point Helf pally dillie with at least a +4 dex tome). With druid +STR enhancement, Ram's Might and Shillelagh I expect the damage output to be even better, but to-hit might suffer without Divine Favor and Divine Power.

Stout Oak Walking Stick is just so good with Pulverizer and Dance of Flowers twist.

[Rubbinns]

Forum ate my rather lengthy reply, but in a nutshell: I agree completely. I like to heal, but I don't like the assumption that I must be doing it in every raid.

Rather than trying a paladin version, I TR:ed into a druid centered staff/elemental build. Noone expects druids to heal, just to be self-sufficient. (Actually, during my second life I'll just go 18/2 dronk, since my preferred version of the build would be a 36-point Helf pally dillie with at least a +4 dex tome). With druid +STR enhancement, Ram's Might and Shillelagh I expect the damage output to be even better, but to-hit might suffer without Divine Favor and Divine Power.

Stout Oak Walking Stick is just so good with Pulverizer and Dance of Flowers twist.

A 12 Cleric, 6 ranger gets you Heal, Bursts, Divine Power, Manyshot, and Improved 2weapon fighting. Can squeeze in Precision, Improved Critical Ranged, Improved Precise Shot, Dual wield Celestia/Rebelion.

Could also try 15 druid 3 monk 2 ranger but feat selection is thin

[giftie]

A 12 Cleric, 6 ranger gets you Heal, Bursts, Divine Power, Manyshot, and Improved 2weapon fighting. Can squeeze in Precision, Improved Critical Ranged, Improved Precise Shot, Dual wield Celestia/Rebelion.

Could also try 15 druid 3 monk 2 ranger but feat selection is thin

A deeper split of cleric is definitely one way to go, one which I hadn't really considered. But I suppose once you give up mass heal (and any pretense of raid healing), this actually isn't a bad idea. After the enhancement pass, 6 Tempest looks very tempting with DEX modifier for to-hit and damage for scimitars and short swords (not to mention the Arcane Archer stuff).

Though speaking from my personal preference, I'd basically end up with a clone of my bard/rogue/ranger - and although I love her to death I'd like something different.

The druid split crossed my mind as well, as the 9th level druid spells looks quite anemic. Definitely an option for third life.