Build Feedback - 16brd/2rog/2ftr DPS

[MrToby]

Hey!

So I've never actually requested feedback from the forums before, but I decided it was time to work on my Warchanter. As it is now I'm 16brd/2barb/2ftr and I was looking to optimize myself for raiding.

What I sought in the build is basic melee abilities as a bard, combined with spellsinger songs and basic trapping skills.

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Toebeewan Kenobi
Level 20 True Neutral Half-Orc Male
(2 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 310
Spell Points: 865 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 16
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    29
Dexterity            12                    16
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence         12                    16
Wisdom                8                    12
Charisma             12                    16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               5                 13                   13
Bluff                 1                  3                    3
Concentration         5                 27                   33
Diplomacy             1                  3                    3
Disable Device        5                 26                   26
Haggle                5                  7                    7
Heal                 -1                  1                    1
Hide                  1                  3                    3
Intimidate            1                  3                    3
Jump                  8                 14                   14
Listen               -1                  1                    1
Move Silently         1                  3                    3
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               26                   26
Repair                1                  3                    3
Search                5                 26                   26
Spot                  3                  5                    5
Swim                  4                  9                    9
Tumble                5                  7                    7
Use Magic Device      5                 26                   30

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Perform (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery IV

Reason for taking Cleaves is for Overwhelming Critical as one of the two epic feats, the other epic feat I selected was Inspire Excellence, and Mental Toughness is one of the possible prequisites for Spellsinger, and I figured it would benefit me the most, more SP = more spell buffs.

Can I improve this build further? Would it perform well?

[CoasterHops]

I have a 2nd life Lvl 24 Bard 16/fight 2/rog 2 and find it fun to play.

Some points of interest:
-DPS is okay, using Khopeshes, main thing to remember is you are increasing others dps also, so ensure others are songed/hasted at all times.

-I run mine as a Virtuoso, now this is preference but as a Virt I have solo cc'd some epic gianthold elites, method I use is: Round up large group of mobs, make sure you are displaced, hasted etc. play enthrallment, then work way through group dancing one mob at a time. Melee then concentrate on the danced mob, dance/repeat. As a virt you also have song of capering which is a ranged otto's dance with a save = to your fascinate/enthrall.
As a virtuoso I have 40 songs in Bard ED, the two dances make for effective cc in most content.

-I run mine as a half elf/pali dilli which results in a self buffed reflex of 50 odd, with evasion.

[Steveohio]

Yours is pretty similar to mine, I think my int is 14 starting instead.
Also I chose to go empower heal, quicken, maximize instead of thf feats. Even though mana is short; pots are not, and potentially group healing in a pinch is worth much more to me instead of a few more dps. Your prc says you want more flexibility than pure dps, but..

Then your doing for Max dps, why not warchanter?

IMO id go warchanter with the barb past life if you want thf and Max dps, otherwise meta feats + spell singer makes you much more rounded.

[Bacab]

Level split is fine...

Feats are good....

Level order is not-optimal

1 ROG
2 Bard
3 FTR (Martial Weapons helps a lot early)
4-9 Bard (get your PRE and Haste and Displacement ASAP)
10 ROG (late here so you can "catch up" your ROG skills easier)
11 FTR (can qualify for Improved Crit here because BAB will be high enough)
12-20 Bard

For DPS...I suggest Warchanter and Horc

For Spellsinger...I would think Human may work better

Feats...

1 Power Attack
3 Cleave
3 (fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus Slashing (for Warchanter)
6 Toughness (can swap this and WF easily)
9 Great Cleave
11 (Fighter) Improved Crit Slashing
12 THF
15 ITHF
18 GTHF
21 Overwhelming Crit
24 Inspire Excellence

At low levels...you get a LOT more mileage out of Cleave and Great Cleave than the THF feats.
Reasons...
Level 4= Carnifex
Level 10= SoS (if you have it)

Run up to mob>>>regular attack>>>Trip>>>Cleave>>>great Cleave>>>its probably dead now

At higher levels...the monster's HP inflates...and your weapons improve (more bursts and stuff) so glancing blows become more important.

Level 12= Greensteel


If you have already leveled this...then yeah your build is good.

But I recommend Warchanter over Spell-singer for a Horc DPS Bard.

[Dasthug]

Then your doing for Max dps, why not warchanter?

IMO id go warchanter with the barb past life if you want thf and Max dps, otherwise meta feats + spell singer makes you much more rounded.

Some of the benefit of warchanter is wasted on a fighter splash, so I understand the decision to go one of the other two Pre's. Don't get me wrong, Warchante on a 16/x/x splash isn't a bad choice, but in the current state of the game I can definitely see the reasoning in being a melee-focused virt or spellsinger.

Also, Barb past life is kind of meh for Bard, for the same reason that barb splash itself is: Can't cast spells while raging.

[voodoogroves]

I agree that I wouldn't go WC on this split today. I prefer WC to be pure and to run in Fatesinger. If you're bringing the best force-multiplier combat songs, bring the best. If not, decide what your focus is and do that - I'd see a build like this in LD or FotW.

I personally don't like this level split and feat lay-out for a Spellsinger. Humans can pull it off with an extra feat, but you're somewhat behind the curve being non-human.

Toughness, PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Improved Crit ... 8 heroic feats you'll want on a Half-Orc Bard (your two epic feats are fine at Overwhelming and Inspire Excellence).

This leaves you with one feat left. I think you'd be better served to go with Quicken. All those SP may be great, but it won't mean diddly-squat if your spells don't fire off because you're being tagged and failing concentration checks. And, honestly, you'll be getting hit because you'll be in the thick of it.

So ... I'd go with Quicken, and be a Virtuoso instead of Spellsinger.

If you went with a different mix (dropping Rogue, say, for 2 more fighter levels) you could make this work as a Spellsinger, but I think you'll find Quicken is essentially mandatory for any melee caster.


SIDE NOTE:

Should the expansion come and there are no new feats worthy of taking in epic levels, you can fit this in by shifting GTHF off until later (since you'd get another feat at 28) and working in Quicken + your SS qualifier (Mental Toughness, etc.)

[Steveohio]

Im curious why people are saying a split like this is bad on a warchanter?
It gives you the much needed feats, for weapon focus especially.
Rogue gives you the skills and evasion(granted it probably wont work great in EE)

Inspire courage gives +1 atk +2 damage + double strike, non dispellable GH.

WC certainly synergizes with Half orc more than any other race. It basically gives maximum personal DPS on any bard build.

Granted I don't play my bard often, and and built it back in u9, but is WC not the preffered PrC anymore?

I can see the benefits of the other 2 PrC, but in raid situations, it adds more DPS to a group than any of the others.

That said, Virt looks intriguing given the great CC in EE content, and the feat you save, and SS is more caster/healer oriented, but what am I missing here?

Why would you not want all the above when making a half orc bard, which is obviously built for personal dps?

Add to that, he has a barbarian past life, and gets 2 more extra rages.

[voodoogroves]

Im curious why people are saying a split like this is bad on a warchanter?
It gives you the much needed feats, for weapon focus especially.
Rogue gives you the skills and evasion(granted it probably wont work great in EE)

Inspire courage gives +1 atk +2 damage + double strike, non dispellable GH.

WC certainly synergizes with Half orc more than any other race. It basically gives maximum personal DPS on any bard build.

Granted I don't play my bard often, and and built it back in u9, but is WC not the preffered PrC anymore?

I can see the benefits of the other 2 PrC, but in raid situations, it adds more DPS to a group than any of the others.

That said, Virt looks intriguing given the great CC in EE content, and the feat you save, and SS is more caster/healer oriented, but what am I missing here?

Why would you not want all the above when making a half orc bard, which is obviously built for personal dps?

Add to that, he has a barbarian past life, and gets 2 more extra rages.

It's exactly that - personal vs. party DPS. EDs changed everything. It used to be that if you were a minorly splashed bard WC, you'd still have songs as good as a virt or SS. The math was easy - everyone boosted their songs and WC got a slight boost.

Are you built primarily for personal DPS, or party DPS? WC is a great PRE. If you want to bring the best party songs, you should stay pure (or else, you're not bringing the best songs and yours would be overwritten by any other bard) ... as the best party DPS comes from a Bard 20 WC in Fatesinger.

THF (and overwhelming critical) really wants a chunk of feats ... 8 minimally. Your epic feats are set at Overwhelming Critical / Inspire Excellence ... but for heroic you're looking at:
- Toughness
- PA
- Cleave
- Great Cleave
- Improved Crit
- THF
- ITHF
- GTHF

This pretty much requires a dip ... and if you take those feats, you're probably going to want to leverage them in LD or Fury. This means you won't have the Fatesinger adds to your song, so your focus is really personal DPS. The extra damage from War Chanter is essentially in the middle-ground noise ... not the best but not the worst. Also, the double-strike song doesn't stack with many items. Given that the DR is essentially easily replaceable via items and you've got proficiency likely from your split, your only real value a splashed WC is bringing is a GH song and medium armor (which you can slot to remove the ASF if you really want it) ... and it requires you to burn a feat on Weapon Focus.

So ... how much personal DPS does that Weapon Focus add? You want personal DPS and capabilities, because anytime you're going to group with another bard there's a solid chance you don't have the best songs.

The split isn't bad - you want the feats. Going Virt or Spellsinger on a melee-focused with a splash may not be super sexy, but you either save a feat or are adding a feat that is useful instead of burning it on Focus.

[Steveohio]

16 WC still brings songs as good as a pure 20 bard or did that change? I don't see how its a matter or personal vs party. The 4 level splash was always about adding in versatility via skills/evasion/feats and as a WC, you still had top insire songs. The same splash on a different PrC meant you then had a song that was worse than another bards.
Making the above, in regards to best song available even more true.

The issue was personal vs party, it was about top party dps, while contributing top personal dps.

Taking the THF line in general, on a class such as bard or a melee divine is, IMO a waste of feats, and an attempt to try and be something your not, far more of a sacrifice of your class abilities to gain a points of dps than its worth.

Not taking fatesinger as a bard is even a bigger mistake IMO. I'm not sure why anyone would want any other ED besides fatesinger in a mostly bard build, beit 12/16/20 levels of bard. I also feel that a bard should be taking inspire excellence as an epic feat. I don't see why any specific feat line means you then have to move to a specific ED.
And I see even less reasoning why anyone would want to take a d6 class like bard, strip out the good things, in an attempt to pretend to be a barbarian or fighter with half the hitpoints and 3/4 the BaB.

Now, I see a completely valid point about the waste of a feat(weap focus) to qualify for WC, but isn't that why most WC splash a martial prof class in the first place?

And as far as the doublestrike from song not stacking, that gets a healthy dose of *** from me. Thats basically the main reason I, or anyone would want to go WC, and makes me pause, and shake my head again in disgust, as to why the bleeping hell they would put in a stupid mechanic like that. And it also makes me wonder, why in the hell anyone would even run a warchanter in the first place.

Utterly ******** move by turbine if indeed that is the case.

That easily makes WC the worst PrC for Bards by a longshot.
So now I have to LR my bard AGAIN ? Actually nix that, my bard is **** now, because its a chr dumped HO so even if I did swap to Virt to get the top CC a bard offers, im a good 3-7 perform down from most other races/bards.

If I were to swap to Spellsinger, I'd be even more screwed, because the caster level increase is nullified by my 4/Splash. Effectively making my spell CC worse again than a pure bard.

So realistically, to me, the 4 splash was only viable on a WC build, and now apparently the song that MADE a WC doesn't even stack properly?

Its no wonder I see people saying bards are a dead/UP class.

Havn't played since back in U9, but given a whole lot of these changes, I wish I never did come back and just waited for ESO.

[voodoogroves]

16 WC still brings songs as good as a pure 20 bard or did that change? I don't see how its a matter or personal vs party. The 4 level splash was always about adding in versatility via skills/evasion/feats and as a WC, you still had top insire songs. The same splash on a different PrC meant you then had a song that was worse than another bards.
Making the above, in regards to best song available even more true.

Not when that WC is playing in Legendary Dreadnaught and the pure 20 whatever is playing in Fatesinger. The one in Fatesinger trumps the WC in Fury / LD.

The issue was personal vs party, it was about top party dps, while contributing top personal dps.

Top party DPS would be Bard 20 War Chanter in Fatesinger. Someone looking to stack on other feats, espescially the cleaves is really going to want to run in LD or Fury. If you wanted to be a 2 hander in Fatesinger, you'd drop either the THF or Cleave / Great Cleave ... that's a hit you'd take on personal DPS to make the party better.

Taking the THF line in general, on a class such as bard or a melee divine is, IMO a waste of feats, and an attempt to try and be something your not, far more of a sacrifice of your class abilities to gain a points of dps than its worth.

Not taking fatesinger as a bard is even a bigger mistake IMO. I'm not sure why anyone would want any other ED besides fatesinger in a mostly bard build, beit 12/16/20 levels of bard. I also feel that a bard should be taking inspire excellence as an epic feat. I don't see why any specific feat line means you then have to move to a specific ED.
And I see even less reasoning why anyone would want to take a d6 class like bard, strip out the good things, in an attempt to pretend to be a barbarian or fighter with half the hitpoints and 3/4 the BaB.

Epic Destines have such powerful abilities that really for some it doesn't matter what your previous class was. Momentum Swing / Lay Waste / Master's Blitz is one of those chains - that's why you see so many THF / Cleave builds these days on just about any class. When you're swinging in the huge numbers and cleave-spamming, the fact that one started as a max STR bard and the other as a cleric or arti or barbarian isn't that huge of a difference.

Now, I see a completely valid point about the waste of a feat(weap focus) to qualify for WC, but isn't that why most WC splash a martial prof class in the first place?

And as far as the doublestrike from song not stacking, that gets a healthy dose of *** from me. Thats basically the main reason I, or anyone would want to go WC, and makes me pause, and shake my head again in disgust, as to why the bleeping hell they would put in a stupid mechanic like that. And it also makes me wonder, why in the hell anyone would even run a warchanter in the first place.

Utterly ******** move by turbine if indeed that is the case.

It is pretty lame ish. I think Virt and SS songs still overwrite each other too.

That easily makes WC the worst PrC for Bards by a longshot.
So now I have to LR my bard AGAIN ? Actually nix that, my bard is **** now, because its a chr dumped HO so even if I did swap to Virt to get the top CC a bard offers, im a good 3-7 perform down from most other races/bards.

If I were to swap to Spellsinger, I'd be even more screwed, because the caster level increase is nullified by my 4/Splash. Effectively making my spell CC worse again than a pure bard.

That 3-7 perform probably won't matter since you're going to be up in the stratosphere anyway. Spellsinger also isn't a bad choice if you look at it that your songs are for your party - you're making the casters better while you beat on things.

So realistically, to me, the 4 splash was only viable on a WC build, and now apparently the song that MADE a WC doesn't even stack properly?

Its no wonder I see people saying bards are a dead/UP class.

Havn't played since back in U9, but given a whole lot of these changes, I wish I never did come back and just waited for ESO.

For reference, I have 3 bard-ish toons.

One is in progress on his somewhat final bard life. He'll be a 16 or 17 bard with one level of wizard and two or three of fighter. He's built for personal DPS first, songs second. In any group with another bard, he's a half-orc cleaver with max strength and a host of weapons in his arsenal and I can swap him between all of the PREs.

One is a rogue currently, one shroud away from becoming a bard. She'll be pierce spec'd, TWF and full bard 20. She'll sit in Fatesinger primarily and her point will be party DPS first, personal second.

The third has some lives to get under her belt, but will be a Spellsinger. Caster bard, likely swapping between Fatesinger and one of the other caster PREs.

[MrToby]

snip

But I recommend Warchanter over Spell-singer for a Horc DPS Bard.

Apparently DDO decided not to let me know through email when my post was replied to, anyways.

I've been playing a warchanter version for max dps, but I've come to the conclusion as of late that with epic level DPS, the +2 extra damage and warchanter in overall is insignificant compared to the massive usefulness of Spellsinger, not to mention warchanter is extremely AP heavy for things that are close to useless in epic levels (fear resist, attack bonus)
which is why I decided to roll an unorthodox melee horc spellsinger. I took the fighter levels at that point to make the feats as efficient as possible.

Some of the benefit of warchanter is wasted on a fighter splash, so I understand the decision to go one of the other two Pre's. Don't get me wrong, Warchante on a 16/x/x splash isn't a bad choice, but in the current state of the game I can definitely see the reasoning in being a melee-focused virt or spellsinger.

Also, Barb past life is kind of meh for Bard, for the same reason that barb splash itself is: Can't cast spells while raging.

My current bard life was 2 barbarian, and just like you, I don't like rage because it prevents scroll healing and spellcasting.
sim
I feel that in current raiding scenarios, having a spellsinger is much more useful than a warchanter solely because of the 10% SP costs and +1 dc's.
Also when it comes to Fatesinger, it's definitely a good option, however I feel that Fatesinger mostly is a better choice than FOTW in scenarios where you need the CC, the epic moment is amazing but FOTW makes me 75-80% of a barbarian.

[MrToby]

I've been reconsidering trapping skills lately, because it's so expensive stat-wise. Perhaps dropping CON by 2, leaving the INT at 6 and pumping the DEX up to 16 will serve me better for reflex saves, I doubt trapping skills would help me very often in raids.

I'll also definitely take the second rogue level later if I should decide to take DD/search. Thanks.

[Bart_D]

One of my favorite characters to play is a 16/2/2 human twf'er which used to be warchanter, now spellsinger in Fatesinger. I find that the spell-related songs and other benefits far outweigh those from warchanter. She is by no means max dps but seems to keep up very well dps-wise, at least according to kill counts for whatever those are worth.

Feats: I would definitely take Maximize instead of Mental Toughness. It qualifies for Spellsinger and when a cure is needed, more is *much* better. Quicken is nice too but atm I cannot fit it in.

Stats: Look fine; if you want more dexterity, lowering charisma should be ok.

Dex/evasion: Mine uses TWF which seem to go well with the dex requited for evasion if nothing else (also she had 2 chaosblades when i tr'd her, never used those much ). You're probably right about investing some in dex because your reflex save will probably end up in the range where it is relevant.

Trap skills: Trap skills are not always useful but very handy when needed. As you say, you probably want to start with 12 int for max skills and can dump int if not (4 ranks of open lock seems to be sufficient). 10 starting int may be enough with +4 tomes, idk. To me, trap skills are worth more than +1 reflex or damage but that obviosly depends on focus.

[MrToby]

One of my favorite characters to play is a 16/2/2 human twf'er which used to be warchanter, now spellsinger in Fatesinger. I find that the spell-related songs and other benefits far outweigh those from warchanter. She is by no means max dps but seems to keep up very well dps-wise, at least according to kill counts for whatever those are worth.

Feats: I would definitely take Maximize instead of Mental Toughness. It qualifies for Spellsinger and when a cure is needed, more is *much* better. Quicken is nice too but atm I cannot fit it in.

Stats: Look fine; if you want more dexterity, lowering charisma should be ok.

Dex/evasion: Mine uses TWF which seem to go well with the dex requited for evasion if nothing else (also she had 2 chaosblades when i tr'd her, never used those much ). You're probably right about investing some in dex because your reflex save will probably end up in the range where it is relevant.

Trap skills: Trap skills are not always useful but very handy when needed. As you say, you probably want to start with 12 int for max skills and can dump int if not (4 ranks of open lock seems to be sufficient). 10 starting int may be enough with +4 tomes, idk. To me, trap skills are worth more than +1 reflex or damage but that obviosly depends on focus.

I might reconsider taking Maximize instead, I doubt my mass cures will hit for above 100 though, even with the spellsinger prequisites.

My main issue with Fatesinger is it's heavy CHA-based skills, the only things I really wish I had instead of FOTW are bound fate, which in itself is amazing as hell, and 20% duration to songs through an echoes of x enhancement.

Also Fatesinger gives you a ton more songs per rest, however as a lot of songs are rendered useless in epic levels (looking at you inspire greatness) you also save a ton more songs, with 18 songs I've never ran out in very very long lag infested CITW runs.
My experiences are from a warchanters perspective, which means I rarely if never use the prestige songs, recklessness, GH song (which doesnt prevent fear). Perhaps I'll be considering Fatesinger as a spellsinger instead.