Neverwinter Fails D&D Expectations

[Drakos]

I've never bought a lifetime sub to any game. In retrospect, I wish I'd bought one for DDO.

I was in DDO beta and I don't remember a lifetime account being offered.

[Lyria]

I was in DDO beta and I don't remember a lifetime account being offered.

Yeah, I misremembered and was thinking of LotRO instead.

Hey, hint hint Turbine, lifetime subs for DDO!

[Tyrande]

[...]
I've never bought a lifetime sub to any game. In retrospect, I wish I'd bought one for DDO.

I was in DDO beta and I don't remember a lifetime account being offered.

You can still have lifetime VIP membership to DDO. You just need to be present at one of their PAX east or PAX west meetings and be one of the lucky persons to draw the lifetime DDO membership; you do not need pay anything, just be present and lucky. You could win DDO that way. Does not include expansions AFAIK.

[Drakos]

Having expereinced a player made content system in an MMO environment in the past with CoH, I am not very excited about this feature at all. What we got was thousands upon thousands of exploit missions with a tiny number of well made missions sprinkled in. I lost interest in it within a week and went back to playing the main game exclusively. Unfortunately, so many people were busy making and running exploit missions in the mission designer, that there were much fewer people to group with in the main game. Overall, I felt that it hurt the game more than it helped it.

I too was disappointed in the CoX player defined content, but for a completely different reason.

I didn't feel if offered enough tools and options. I had several missions I wanted to try and make, including a story arc, but the limitations of the engine didn't allow for them.

[mr.stone]

Hell I never even heard of Eberron until I started playing online.

[Missing_Minds]

Hey, hint hint Turbine, lifetime subs for DDO!

They have already stated they are not going to do so. In as so far as selling a lifetime sub.

[Lyria]

I too was disappointed in the CoX player defined content, but for a completely different reason.

I didn't feel if offered enough tools and options. I had several missions I wanted to try and make, including a story arc, but the limitations of the engine didn't allow for them.

Yeah, same here. I had a story arc I'd been building, to try and make a SERIOUS villain arc (you were hired as a mercenary to take down a banana republic, including assassination of El Presidente, his wife, and kids, which was going to culminate in a choice to either turn it over to your employer or kill him and take it yourself), but I couldn't get it to work the way I wanted.

[shores11]

Is comparing NWO to DDO apples to oranges? Other than the fact they use the name D&D as the background. I would think NWO is more like spolied apples to prime Florida oranges.

[sephiroth1084]

There are plans regarding building multiple group raids into the game.

You know, I think I'd prefer this design in DDO: rather than making a super-group of 12 players, I'd kind of rather have multi-group raids, where 2 or more 6-person parties joins as separate entities. Dunno how that would work, though. Probably not well without turning to 3rd party voice communication services, like Vent.

[shores11]

You know, I think I'd prefer this design in DDO: rather than making a super-group of 12 players, I'd kind of rather have multi-group raids, where 2 or more 6-person parties joins as separate entities. Dunno how that would work, though. Probably not well without turning to 3rd party voice communication services, like Vent.

/not signed

There would be in game communication issues. Although many players may turn to a ventrilo system to overcome this. If you used ventrilo because of the in game limitations then why not just make a larger party capability in game. It is not preferable to make players have to use a third party communication system because the game can't do it themselves.

[Salamandar]

Greyhawk's still my favorite too. I'd LOVE to see a Greyhawk expansion for DDO, similar to the FR one. Maybe Vecna discovers Eberron and starts screwing around out in Gianthold (the epic version), leading adventurers through a gateway back into Greyhawk.

Epic Tomb of Horrors would be freaking fun as heck.

GDAMN! You just got my attention... an Epic Tomb Of Horrors with a lead in Keep On The Borderlands all via a gate to Greyhawk from Epic Giant Hold, dev's, get your asses in gear and start pecking! ME WANT!

[Lyria]

GDAMN! You just got my attention... an Epic Tomb Of Horrors with a lead in Keep On The Borderlands all via a gate to Greyhawk from Epic Giant Hold, dev's, get your asses in gear and start pecking! ME WANT!

You could tie it in to all sorts of old-school D&D modules...

From Epic Gianthold through a planar gate to an ancient Keep on the Borderlands, where the adventurers discover mysterious hints about the new realm they find themselves in. From there, they venture out into the Kingdom of Furyondy (quest hub city).

One-off/short quest chains:
* Against the Slavers: Dealing with a cabal of powerful slave traders who have established themselves in the vicinity.
* Against the Giants: The rulers of the nearby giant clans have begun to amass power via mysterious allies, and are threatening the region more and more.
* Against the Drow: The giants' mysterious backers are revealed! Lolth and her drow minions have discovered Oerth as well, and are moving to take over before the heroes can put a stop to them and their kuo-toa allies.
* The Tomb of Horrors: Players venture into the trap-festooned tomb in search of treasure and mystery, and face down the mad demilich Vecna.
* Vecna Must Die: Quest chain/raid dealing with the powermad demilich as he attempts to usurp the reins of godhood from the Greyhawk god of magic. Chase him through the Flanaess and ultimately to Sigil, the city of doors, as he attempts to complete his ritual of ascendance and claim the city from the mysterious Lady of Pain and finally ascend to godhood!

I can dream, can't I?

[shores11]

You could tie it in to all sorts of old-school D&D modules...

From Epic Gianthold through a planar gate to an ancient Keep on the Borderlands, where the adventurers discover mysterious hints about the new realm they find themselves in. From there, they venture out into the Kingdom of Furyondy (quest hub city).

One-off/short quest chains:
* Against the Slavers: Dealing with a cabal of powerful slave traders who have established themselves in the vicinity.
* Against the Giants: The rulers of the nearby giant clans have begun to amass power via mysterious allies, and are threatening the region more and more.
* Against the Drow: The giants' mysterious backers are revealed! Lolth and her drow minions have discovered Oerth as well, and are moving to take over before the heroes can put a stop to them and their kuo-toa allies.
* The Tomb of Horrors: Players venture into the trap-festooned tomb in search of treasure and mystery, and face down the mad demilich Vecna.
* Vecna Must Die: Quest chain/raid dealing with the powermad demilich as he attempts to usurp the reins of godhood from the Greyhawk god of magic. Chase him through the Flanaess and ultimately to Sigil, the city of doors, as he attempts to complete his ritual of ascendance and claim the city from the mysterious Lady of Pain and finally ascend to godhood!

I can dream, can't I?

All I would prefer is that portals to other realms not be cracks in already public areas. I think the rift/portal to FR could have been better done not messing up the landscape in the Harbor. Some mirky smog characters walk into maybe and instanced to another realm.

[Lyria]

All I would prefer is that portals to other realms not be cracks in already public areas. I think the rift/portal to FR could have been better done not messing up the landscape in the Harbor. Some mirky smog characters walk into maybe and instanced to another realm.

Personally if it were up to me I'd put the portal to Greyhawk out in the actual wilderness area of Epic Gianthold. Maybe with a couple bewildered Greyhawk critters around/fighting the Gianthold mobs.

[Raithe]

It seems that in NW the group size will be at 5 players (ok, we can adjust)

If a standard group size for a D&D module were formulated, it should probably be four players. Five is perhaps a nod to the horrible failure that is DDO, with its extremely poorly designed 6-player system (which they originally announced as being balanced for... u guessed it... FOUR players (and it was).

...however there are no plans currently for any raid style of play per the developers.

D&D was NEVER a raiding system or anything similar. Four players was actually quite well-rounded (Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Rogue) and anything more was likely due to a shortage in DM-ing faculties.

The game in and of itself seems to cater more to the younger crowd with the Diablo or WoW looting system ( I predict a lot of grief here)...

What you just described is DDO's looting system to a T. It mimics, more than anything else, Diablo and WoW. It doesn't mimic D&D (and it should have...)

With limited and more structured classes the character customization we have all become used to is taking a major hit for a D&D themed game.

In the original D&D game (not AD&D), elf was a class all by itself. The customization you think is all-important to D&D isn't, and it was character actions and story moments that made ALL the difference in the vast majority of D&D games, everywhere.

Turbine really missed the mark when they decided to go with Eberron.

Eberron was perfectly fine as a campaign setting. Just about the only thing that Turbine DIDN'T mess up on is the choice of Eberron. The p-poor shape the mixed Eberron/FR current game is in is a reflection that the setting wasn't what mattered. It's all about the players, the playstyles, and the focus on story and storytelling.

Just wanted to make it clear that if left to their own wishes, players (in general) would annihilate this genre of online game.

[Sebastrd]

Alright, well just a few comments.

1. 4th Edition is just about the worst steaming pile of *insert noun here* that I have ever had the displeasure of playing. Everyone dies constantly and then pops back up, abilities are like a video game etc. My friends and everyone I have played with says its like playing WoW on tabletop and would make a better videogame than a RPG. That being said, maybe it will translate better into online gaming.

So, in other words, you've really never played 4E.

[Lyria]

What you just described is DDO's looting system to a T. It mimics, more than anything else, Diablo and WoW. It doesn't mimic D&D (and it should have...)

Actually I find DDO's loot system to be awesome. It means people in the back fighting from range aren't screwed by having loot drop at the melee's feet. And it means they don't have to have a "random roll window" pop up every time someone picks something up.

In the original D&D game (not AD&D), elf was a class all by itself. The customization you think is all-important to D&D isn't, and it was character actions and story moments that made ALL the difference in the vast majority of D&D games, everywhere.

You're going REALLY far back to Basic D&D for that one. Characters have had copious amounts of customization options for 20+ years. Long before MMO's.

[shores11]

Thanks for your reply and your OPINION as that is exactly what it is.

If a standard group size for a D&D module were formulated, it should probably be four players. Five is perhaps a nod to the horrible failure that is DDO, with its extremely poorly designed 6-player system (which they originally announced as being balanced for... u guessed it... FOUR players (and it was). I agree but an online MMO regardless of lore history in this case D&D had to bend a little to some industry expectations. DDO did the right thing with 6-man parties and 12-man raids. When I played D&D PNP our groups ranged from 4-6 players which was what was directly recommended by most D&D modules.


D&D was NEVER a raiding system or anything similar. Four players was actually quite well-rounded (Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Rogue) and anything more was likely due to a shortage in DM-ing faculties. See above for grouping but as D&D modules called for 4-6 players in their own modules your off a bit on group size.


What you just described is DDO's looting system to a T. It mimics, more than anything else, Diablo and WoW. It doesn't mimic D&D (and it should have...) In DDO you can not just run over swords, gold, other items just lying on the floor and have it populate in your backpack. So yes, NWO is mimicing Diablo and WoW in the way loot is gathered not DDO. Where and what quest does most of the loot just drop on the floor and you run over it without clicking. I'll answer there is not one.


In the original D&D game (not AD&D), elf was a class all by itself. The customization you think is all-important to D&D isn't, and it was character actions and story moments that made ALL the difference in the vast majority of D&D games, everywhere. I agree that character action helps define the story of your character. But starting with D&D, AD&D and beyond the amount of customization you applied to your character the richer his/her storyline or lore could be.


Eberron was perfectly fine as a campaign setting. Just about the only thing that Turbine DIDN'T mess up on is the choice of Eberron. The p-poor shape the mixed Eberron/FR current game is in is a reflection that the setting wasn't what mattered. It's all about the players, the playstyles, and the focus on story and storytelling. I like DDO and have been playing DDO seven plus years now and Eberron was a not a deal breaking for me. The Forgotten Realms just would have been a better option as it is much more popular and there would not have been such a shortage of players in the beginning. No Turbine update has been more saluted than the addition of FR to DDO.

Just wanted to make it clear that if left to their own wishes, players (in general) would annihilate this genre of online game. I do not know what you are referring to here because without hearing the players and expanding into FR DDO would have lost a lot of players to NWO reardless of its quality just for The Forgotten Realms and they know it. Best marketing decision they could have made. I am glad Turbine did not leave this to your devices just to be clear..

It really looks like you logged in and decided I am just going to find some post to counter regardless if your right or not.

[die]

Alright, well just a few comments.

1. 4th Edition is just about the worst steaming pile of *insert noun here* that I have ever had the displeasure of playing. Everyone dies constantly and then pops back up, abilities are like a video game etc. My friends and everyone I have played with says its like playing WoW on tabletop and would make a better videogame than a RPG. That being said, maybe it will translate better into online gaming.

2. DDO when it first came out.. didn't it like have at least a year or 2 before raids were even implemented? I am pretty sure it was a while.

3. Forgotten Realms, while certainly the most colorful and has the biggest fan following is also the most hardcore set-in-stone system out there. It has in-depth storylines and NPCs that are rock solid and fully flushed out. Any changes made to the world in game would have to either follow a storyline that we all know the answers to, or has to be completely made up (which most fanboys will hate).

Personally I love FR and have always loved it. But we will have to see.

I remember when DDO first came out. 50% of the "reviews" by Tabletop gaming geeks thought it sucked hardcore. The other 50% thought it was great.

Um no not a couple years titan dq and tempest spine all came out in the first year

[Missing_Minds]

Is comparing NWO to DDO apples to oranges? Other than the fact they use the name D&D as the background. I would think NWO is more like spolied apples to prime Florida oranges.

It is probably safer to compare NWO to 4.0 DnD and DDO to 3.X DnD.

Or if you want, compare 4.0 to 3.x. PLENTY of material on that out there already.

If you do a comparison of how NWO is different from a standard MMO, you'll probably be on the mark. So compare it to LOTRO.