Armor Class: Is there a chart somewhere which depicts its effectiveness?

[Ape_Man]

AC went from being important to 5% of the characters to 100% of the characters, now everyone benefits from increasing their AC, no matter how high or low it is. It may have been dead in the past, but it's alive now. You always benefit from more AC.

No, you don't. Not in the hardest content in the game.

[redspecter23]

The fact that we need a chart to determine AC usefulness makes me sad. I should not have to go outside the game to find out if my AC is useful.

*cue old man voice*

When I was a noob, we didn't need CHARTS to tell if we had a good enough AC. We let 50 kobolds smack us around. If we died in 5 seconds, we needed more AC. If we shrugged it off we were fine. These days, all the AC in the world won't help you if your level 25 toon with 200 AC gets ganged up on by 2 lame kobolds and a one armed troll. You will still get hit 25% of the time if you count on just AC.

I'm just waiting for the same system to be applied to spell DC's and saves. That will be a popcorn moment for sure.

[maddmatt70]

AC went from being important to 5% of the characters to 100% of the characters, now everyone benefits from increasing their AC, no matter how high or low it is. It may have been dead in the past, but it's alive now. You always benefit from more AC.

Quite frankly even if this is true, the perception for so many players is that it is not true; hence, the general feeling is that AC does not matter. A part of making a product is not just actually making a product but actually explaining what a product does. Turbine gets an F grade in this instance for totally failing to provide an explanation for what AC does and means. The developers keep making AC gear like the new white dragon armor, but there is a total lack of disconnect for the playerbase as to what this armor and other ac gear will do for them. Anything, Something, Nothing?

[Ape_Man]

I'm just waiting for the same system to be applied to spell DC's and saves. That will be a popcorn moment for sure.

ZOMG! The nerd-rage thread will be full of win.

Not needed though as the difference between "build for DCs" and "maxed DCs" is a 4-5 point swing tops. AC was much larger.

Personally I think all they needed to do was add in the better armors, added PRR, divorced Dodge from AC, and left the to-hit formulas alone. WOuldn't have needed to change CE, monk-multiplier, and Defensive stance bonuses either.

[elraido]

AC went from being important to 5% of the characters to 100% of the characters, now everyone benefits from increasing their AC, no matter how high or low it is. It may have been dead in the past, but it's alive now. You always benefit from more AC.

Not really. An AC of around 140 will give about a 75% chance to be missed at level (according to what it says on the screen). A guy with a 240 AC (has been hit before) has an 85% chance to be missed. That 100 points of AC is only worth 15% to be missed. The cost clearly outweighs the benefits to most people.

[Ape_Man]

Not really. An AC of around 140 will give about a 75% chance to be missed at level (according to what it says on the screen). A guy with a 240 AC (has been hit before) has an 85% chance to be missed. That 100 points of AC is only worth 15% to be missed. The cost clearly outweighs the benefits to most people.

and that % chance is nonsense.

[redspecter23]

ZOMG! The nerd-rage thread will be full of win.

Not needed though as the difference between "build for DCs" and "maxed DCs" is a 4-5 point swing tops. AC was much larger.

Personally I think all they needed to do was add in the better armors, added PRR, divorced Dodge from AC, and left the to-hit formulas alone. WOuldn't have needed to change CE, monk-multiplier, and Defensive stance bonuses either.

The ironic part of the whole change is that what we were told it was meant to do was to make a reasonable AC (not maxed out) useful in all content. In the old system we were getting smacked for 100+ damage a hit in epic with only 5% mitigation through moderate AC. In the new system we get hit for 200+ damage a hit iin epic elite (without PRR factored in) with maybe 7% mitigation through moderate AC investment. I agree with you. The old system with PRR and dodge added would have likely led to the exact same end result we currently have anyway... with no charts.

[Missing_Minds]

I'm just waiting for the same system to be applied to spell DC's and saves. That will be a popcorn moment for sure.

Easy. All they have to do is put in ranged touch attacks in game.

Of course that will also means all ray type spells will be able to bounce people around like arrows currently do.

Matt, did that chart I linked help in what you were looking for?

[Ape_Man]

The ironic part of the whole change is that what we were told it was meant to do was to make a reasonable AC (not maxed out) useful in all content. In the old system we were getting smacked for 100+ damage a hit in epic with only 5% mitigation through moderate AC. In the new system we get hit for 200+ damage a hit iin epic elite (without PRR factored in) with maybe 7% mitigation through moderate AC investment. I agree with you. The old system with PRR and dodge added would have likely led to the exact same end result we currently have anyway... with no charts.

Yup.

Or they can change EE to CRx2 for to-hit (again, a guess) instead of the current CRx3 and AC might actually be of value in EE. As it is now it's not even with the new-Coke of to-hit formulas.

[maddmatt70]

Easy. All they have to do is put in ranged touch attacks in game.

Of course that will also means all ray type spells will be able to bounce people around like arrows currently do.

Matt, did that chart I linked help in what you were looking for?

Yeah it did help some, but then it gets into what is the mobs to hit and the like. The devs can produce the real numbers which would be the best case scenario.

One of the stated reasons for the armor class changes was for NON tanks. Wizards, sorcerers, barbarians, rangers, etc. The concept of giving those builds options of building a little ac into their builds instead of a little dps or dc or etc. for more defense sounds good just too bad nobody has any idea if it actual works or what values the trade offs are at or etc. Its all fuzzy math.

[Mastikator]

This is not quite true. If your AC is below a certain threshold, it still doesn't help. In EE, that threshold is pretty high.

Also, in higher level content the bonus needed to get hit meaningfully less gets fairly high, too. Yes, that +5 AC you just grinded two weeks for may help you get hit 0.1% less...

Yes in EE.
Before MotU there was a 10 level period where everyone benefitted from increasing their AC, specifically 1-10, then it became relevant to 5% of the characters at epic and elite raids again. Now that level range is 1-25, but the 5% of the players that grind out every last drop of AC receive diminishing returns rather than accelerating returns.
Meaning that AC became relevant to everyone at all levels rather than a tiny portion of the players playing a tiny portion of the game.

[elraido]

Yes in EE.
Before MotU there was a 10 level period where everyone benefitted from increasing their AC, specifically 1-10, then it became relevant to 5% of the characters at epic and elite raids again. Now that level range is 1-25, but the 5% of the players that grind out every last drop of AC receive diminishing returns rather than accelerating returns.
Meaning that AC became relevant to everyone at all levels rather than a tiny portion of the players playing a tiny portion of the game.

What would you say if they did the same thing to DPS characters? There being a law of diminishing returns on the damage that one does? A 25 str character could be doing only 5% damage difference than a 100 str char.

If one is striving for AC, they shouldn't be punished because others didn't want to build for it in the old system.

[Dandonk]

Yes in EE.
Before MotU there was a 10 level period where everyone benefitted from increasing their AC, specifically 1-10, then it became relevant to 5% of the characters at epic and elite raids again. Now that level range is 1-25, but the 5% of the players that grind out every last drop of AC receive diminishing returns rather than accelerating returns.
Meaning that AC became relevant to everyone at all levels rather than a tiny portion of the players playing a tiny portion of the game.

I disagree. AC worked decently at pre-epic before, and it works decently at pre-EE now. I see no real difference in where it works.

The only difference is that we now have a more complex, less D&D system to do it with.

[Missing_Minds]

One of the stated reasons for the armor class changes was for NON tanks. Wizards, sorcerers, barbarians, rangers, etc. The concept of giving those builds options of building a little ac into their builds instead of a little dps or dc or etc. for more defense sounds good just too bad nobody has any idea if it actual works or what values the trade offs are at or etc. Its all fuzzy math.

If I remember right, Scraap's casters are armor wearers. Now he'd know the specifics about his builds, but on the normal and hard it seems to make a nice difference. I don't know what it would be on elite.

You may want to toss him a PM for his experiences.

My druid is only 19.5 and I've not really pushed hard on the AC to see about differences, so I've got nothing to add really. And when one uses regenerate, healing amp, and hirelings to watch over you and puppy... it is easy to lose track when AC isn't worth much again.

[Mastikator]

What would you say if they did the same thing to DPS characters? There being a law of diminishing returns on the damage that one does? A 25 str character could be doing only 5% damage difference than a 100 str char.

If one is striving for AC, they shouldn't be punished because others didn't want to build for it in the old system.

Melee and Ranged DPS does suffer from diminishing returns. It's virtually impossible to reach the hit-rate of 95% that there used to be. It's more likely to be between 80% (very low to-hit investment) to 90% (very high to-hit investment).
The new system has dodge, prr and ghostly, 3 factors that multiplicatively stacks with AC, tank builds are still viable, they just aren't linear, nor always necessary.

[hermespan]

While it's not hard numbers and quantifiable facts, you can try equipping a shield and then swapping to THF in a mob and see the difference.

You'll definitely get a feel for a the difference that 6/8/10 ac gives you over not having it. You can also try blur/displacement both ways and see how it affects it.

It's pretty simple, the better the ac, the less you will get hit. Whether or not it's enough for you to try to fit some into your build, that's another story. But I've found with toons that are stuck in light armor that adding ac with a necklace of armor +5 and a +5 ring of protection is a very noticeable difference. Even with blur/displace.

I think he was looking for more detail than that. +/-6 AC at level 1 with a base 12 AC in a heroic normal quest has a much different meaning than +/-6 AC with a base 173 AC at level 20/5 in epic elite base level 24 quest. In the former case it can make you un-hittable, in the latter it might make no difference at all.

[maddmatt70]

If I remember right, Scraap's casters are armor wearers. Now he'd know the specifics about his builds, but on the normal and hard it seems to make a nice difference. I don't know what it would be on elite.

You may want to toss him a PM for his experiences.

My druid is only 19.5 and I've not really pushed hard on the AC to see about differences, so I've got nothing to add really. And when one uses regenerate, healing amp, and hirelings to watch over you and puppy... it is easy to lose track when AC isn't worth much again.

Let me say why I am writing this thread. I have a new character a 12 rogue 6 monk 2 paladin. He is not a tank, but a melee. The purpose of the build is getting to be about 80% of the dps of a heavy dps character (lets say level 20 rogue or 19 rogue 1 monk for e.g. are heavy dps characters) and using that 20% dps loss for far more surviveability exactly what the devs said is one of their goals with the ac changes making builds that were not only about offense but also had some defensive capabilities.

I just got the character to about level 25 and I have been running some epic elites on him. He is getting whacked a fair amount and is not fully ready for epic elite in a sense, but not terrible. Currently the character is not fully geared especially in terms of physical resistance, ac, and hit points, and saves to a lesser extent, but it has maxed dodge and healing amp. I was looking at the miss chance, physical resistance, etc. when he would be fully geared and was trying to determine what that would all lead to.

The armor class is an outright mystery. I project his armor class at 110 which is a decent investment and in my opinion should mean more then a 5% miss chance, but what it is and should be is an outright mystery. The dodge, incorpeality and blur all can be evaluated as can the physical resistance, hit points, saves, etc., but AC is fuzzy math.

[hermespan]

What would you say if they did the same thing to DPS characters? There being a law of diminishing returns on the damage that one does? A 25 str character could be doing only 5% damage difference than a 100 str char.

If one is striving for AC, they shouldn't be punished because others didn't want to build for it in the old system.

Excellent resource...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=391819

[hermespan]

Let me say why I am writing this thread. I have a new character a 12 rogue 6 monk 2 paladin. He is not a tank, but a melee. The purpose of the build is getting to be about 80% of the dps of a heavy dps character (lets say level 20 rogue or 19 rogue 1 monk for e.g. are heavy dps characters) and using that 20% dps loss for far more surviveability exactly what the devs said is one of their goals with the ac changes making builds that were not only about offense but also had some defensive capabilities.

I just got the character to about level 25 and I have been running some epic elites on him. He is getting whacked a fair amount and is not fully ready for epic elite in a sense, but not terrible. Currently the character is not fully geared especially in terms of physical resistance, ac, and hit points, and saves to a lesser extent, but it has maxed dodge and healing amp. I was looking at the miss chance, physical resistance, etc. when he would be fully geared and was trying to determine what that would all lead to.

The armor class is an outright mystery. I project his armor class at 110 which is a decent investment and in my opinion should mean more then a 5% miss chance, but what it is and should be is an outright mystery. The dodge, incorpeality and blur all can be evaluated as can the physical resistance, hit points, saves, etc., but AC is fuzzy math.

DR is huge too. I have a druid with 26 DR(combined total from 4 sources/types of DR) 110 AC and 85% PRR.

I was in an epic elite, seemed to be getting hit just as much as everyone else and was one of 2 people that didn't die, like the 173 AC paladin that was with us who died a few times.

House of Broken Chains EE.

I don't know if I played better, he played worse, or what happened but that's how it shook out. Unfortunately without a detailed accounting of exactly what happened this information is useless.

I can say that I've done 4 epic elites on this build/life and haven't died yet. So far so good. Last life I only had 21DR, around the same HP, and 2 less AC and died much more in EE.

Again this could have been better groups this time around. There are a lot of factors you can't easily measure with numbers such as AC/DR/PRR alone.

Edit: As well hitting 110 was not a significant effort. In fact I chose all of my gear for bonuses that have nothing to do with AC. Forgot to mention that.

[samthedagger]

AC is relevant to almost all characters since the higher a character's AC, in most cases the higher a character's PRR. So even if you are getting hit 95% of the time, you are still reducing the damage somewhat.