Armor Class: Is there a chart somewhere which depicts its effectiveness?

[maddmatt70]

Armor Class: Is there a chart somewhere which depicts its effectiveness? I have been looking through the forums and ddo wiki and other sources and I am having a difficult time finding a chart or information for when ac starts making a difference and how effective it is at different AC levels and against what mobs, etc.? I wish the developers would provide some insight into this? It seems very difficult for a player to tell what levels of ac to shoot for and when they should care about ac or not care about it.

[Vestriel]

I know how you feel. It's really hard to judge how valuable say +1 AC is compared to any other bonus, when the value of AC is so abstruse.

It would be great to have some way of seeing enemy To-Hit bonus, perhaps as a Monster Manual perk or something.

As it stands, I mainly stick to more quantifiable defensive options such as Blur, DR, and such. If I can't tell how much AC is going to help me, I'm not going to put much effort into fitting it into my build.

That thing on character sheets showing "defense chance at level" or whatever is inadequate, as it gives no indication of what an "at-level" mob is. Is that referring to quest level, CR, or something else? Even among mobs of the same level, certain types have much higher To-Hit than others.

Playing a game blind-folded is not much fun. We need more information so we can make meaningful decisions, rather than having to rely on guesswork and trial and error.

[bhgiant]

Playing a game blind-folded is not much fun.

Ever play Dark Souls?

I'm pretty sure the Defense % is for mobs at your CR. There is a useful AC tool on the forums that estimates mobs to-hit based on their CR and then calculates your AC effectiveness against it. It's called DDOArmorClass. Can't find where I got the app though...

[AzB]

I know how you feel. It's really hard to judge how valuable say +1 AC is compared to any other bonus, when the value of AC is so abstruse.

While it's not hard numbers and quantifiable facts, you can try equipping a shield and then swapping to THF in a mob and see the difference.

You'll definitely get a feel for a the difference that 6/8/10 ac gives you over not having it. You can also try blur/displacement both ways and see how it affects it.

It's pretty simple, the better the ac, the less you will get hit. Whether or not it's enough for you to try to fit some into your build, that's another story. But I've found with toons that are stuck in light armor that adding ac with a necklace of armor +5 and a +5 ring of protection is a very noticeable difference. Even with blur/displace.

[Systern]

Ever play Dark Souls?

I'm pretty sure the Defense % is for mobs at your CR. There is a useful AC tool on the forums that estimates mobs to-hit based on their CR and then calculates your AC effectiveness against it. It's called DDOArmorClass. Can't find where I got the app though...

I guess you found it here.

[hcarr]

Its a diminishing returns the higher you get like the prr system which is a little more transparent.

This is my simplistic take on the new ac system.

Get as much ac that you can fit easily into your build. If they want the mob to hit you it will like boss fights. Things they dont care if it does or not will hit you about 50% of the time. If you dont try for ac you get hit 75%. If you seriously try for ac you get hit 25% of the time.

Then put in place your dodge dr/ prr blur and displacement.

[maddmatt70]

Its a diminishing returns the higher you get like the prr system which is a little more transparent.

This is my simplistic take on the new ac system.

Get as much ac that you can fit easily into your build. If they want the mob to hit you it will like boss fights. Things they dont care if it does or not will hit you about 50% of the time. If you dont try for ac you get hit 75%. If you seriously try for ac you get hit 25% of the time.

Then put in place your dodge dr/ prr blur and displacement.

Yeah but there is a bottom threshold where AC is not effective. Then the next question is what is the scale of the returns. Finally, how does this scale work on different difficulties for at least epic level quests. The developers were nice enough to provide us a physical resistance rating chart, but I have been trying to find an ac chart to no avail. If the developers could give us a chart for epic elite, epic normal, epic hard level 20-25 quests and say +- this is the ac threshold/scale for the quests in this level range at such and such a difficulty that would be awesome. It really is nearly impossible to determine what AC matters; hence, a lot of the playerbase have given up on AC altogether.

[Ape_Man]

I strongly suspect mob to-hits to be CRx2 in Heroic/EN/EH content and CRx3 in EE. Rought estimate of course.

If EE was CRx2 a CR60 mob's +120 to-hit would still miss an AC tank more than half the time. That doesn't work out in reality, it's gotta be CRx3 or higher as 150 AC does NOTHING in level 24 elites.

[Ape_Man]

. . . a lot of the playerbase have given up on AC altogether.

Are you assuming the playerbase cared about AC to begin with? Epic destroyed that years ago.

The concept of the "AC build is dead." Now you simply have it or you don't based on your class/PRE/ED combo. The creativity involved in squeezing out some more defense on a strange build is dead and burried. Cookie-cutter FTW.

[elraido]

Yeah but there is a bottom threshold where AC is not effective. Then the next question is what is the scale of the returns. Finally, how does this scale work on different difficulties for at least epic level quests. The developers were nice enough to provide us a physical resistance rating chart, but I have been trying to find an ac chart to no avail. If the developers could give us a chart for epic elite, epic normal, epic hard level 20-25 quests and say +- this is the ac threshold/scale for the quests in this level range at such and such a difficulty that would be awesome. It really is nearly impossible to determine what AC matters; hence, a lot of the playerbase have given up on AC altogether.

I have a higher AC tank. I have given up trying to figure it out. Especially now that it is a diminishing return. Sometimes I can go threw a high level mission and not get touched. Other times I go threw another high level mission and just get beat on. At times, it just seems random. I do miss the old AC system. While some said once you hit that 90+ number under it, you were basically untouchable except for EE. Yeah, and it took a LOT of work to get it up that high back then....and most of the time one was giving up DPS to do that. There was a trade off. High DPS characters don't have to a diminishing return on their damage...why should AC?

[elraido]

Are you assuming the playerbase cared about AC to begin with? Epic destroyed that years ago.

The concept of the "AC build is dead." Now you simply have it or you don't based on your class/PRE/ED combo. The creativity involved in squeezing out some more defense on a strange build is dead and burried. Cookie-cutter FTW.

I agree 100% with this. All one needs is decent armor, unyeilding sov ED, and a shield. Bam, you have an AC build. I have been removing some AC feats/aspects from my main because it is useless to have them if they provide only a 1% difference in me getting hit (I am looking at you epic bulward of defense).

[maddmatt70]

I have a higher AC tank. I have given up trying to figure it out. Especially now that it is a diminishing return. Sometimes I can go threw a high level mission and not get touched. Other times I go threw another high level mission and just get beat on. At times, it just seems random. I do miss the old AC system. While some said once you hit that 90+ number under it, you were basically untouchable except for EE. Yeah, and it took a LOT of work to get it up that high back then....and most of the time one was giving up DPS to do that. There was a trade off. High DPS characters don't have to a diminishing return on their damage...why should AC?

One of the best things about the old system was it was more transparent. You knew if I got such and such an ac that will do something. Now the old system was far from perfect, but the developers could make this current system a little bit more transparent which would really make it much more useful and exciting. Honestly Armor Class feels like a bunch of made up numbers. I know Armor Class does something, but defense these days is all about dodge, physical resistance, blur/incorpeality in large part because they are much much more transparent. I know if I throw a blur item on unless the monster has true seeing (which boss's do) I get 20% miss - that is really simple and transparent.

[Missing_Minds]

Matt, this is the best I've seen so far.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=390892

[maddmatt70]

I strongly suspect mob to-hits to be CRx2 in Heroic/EN/EH content and CRx3 in EE. Rought estimate of course.

If EE was CRx2 a CR60 mob's +120 to-hit would still miss an AC tank more than half the time. That doesn't work out in reality, it's gotta be CRx3 or higher as 150 AC does NOTHING in level 24 elites.

I think this is incorrect. 130 ac makes a difference on ee of that I am pretty certain. This is too all or nothing and the scale is not like that.

[donblas]

Are you assuming the playerbase cared about AC to begin with? Epic destroyed that years ago.

The concept of the "AC build is dead." Now you simply have it or you don't based on your class/PRE/ED combo. The creativity involved in squeezing out some more defense on a strange build is dead and burried. Cookie-cutter FTW.

QFT

Unfortunately, I used to really enjoy squeezing and extra +1AC into a weird build, but that's gone for good.

I've been able to sustain rage against the stupid, poorly thought out, rushed, "average is best" current combat system since it came out with the expansion - that's probably not good for me

[oweieie]

I'm pretty sure the Defense % is for mobs at your CR.

That is what it says on the character sheet where it shows you miss chance. The problem is that the only mobs you're going to see at your character level are EN. EH are all above. EE... yeah, CR 60 freaking mobs. How does a 50% miss chance for level 25 mobs translate to level 60 mobs? It means they always hit you.

That doesn't work out in reality, it's gotta be CRx3 or higher as 150 AC does NOTHING in level 24 elites.

So much stuff is pretty pointless in EE. It is no longer playing DnD it is just playing abuse the AI in order to beat dozens and dozens of trash mobs each of which are vastly stronger than you.

[Ape_Man]

I think this is incorrect. 130 ac makes a difference on ee of that I am pretty certain. This is too all or nothing and the scale is not like that.

130 makes a difference on SOME EEs. Against CR40 mobs (my esitmate of 120ish to-hit) yes.

Against CR55 (EE High road) no.

My tank and go into EE Lords of Dust and laugh at the mobs, EE Detour is a different story.

[Mastikator]

Are you assuming the playerbase cared about AC to begin with? Epic destroyed that years ago.

The concept of the "AC build is dead." Now you simply have it or you don't based on your class/PRE/ED combo. The creativity involved in squeezing out some more defense on a strange build is dead and burried. Cookie-cutter FTW.

AC went from being important to 5% of the characters to 100% of the characters, now everyone benefits from increasing their AC, no matter how high or low it is. It may have been dead in the past, but it's alive now. You always benefit from more AC.

[Dandonk]

AC went from being important to 5% of the characters to 100% of the characters, now everyone benefits from increasing their AC, no matter how high or low it is. It may have been dead in the past, but it's alive now. You always benefit from more AC.

This is not quite true. If your AC is below a certain threshold, it still doesn't help. In EE, that threshold is pretty high.

Also, in higher level content the bonus needed to get hit meaningfully less gets fairly high, too. Yes, that +5 AC you just grinded two weeks for may help you get hit 0.1% less...

[Ape_Man]

One of the best things about the old system was it was more transparent. You knew if I got such and such an ac that will do something. Now the old system was far from perfect, but the developers could make this current system a little bit more transparent which would really make it much more useful and exciting. Honestly Armor Class feels like a bunch of made up numbers. I know Armor Class does something, but defense these days is all about dodge, physical resistance, blur/incorpeality in large part because they are much much more transparent. I know if I throw a blur item on unless the monster has true seeing (which boss's do) I get 20% miss - that is really simple and transparent.

I LIKE certain aspects of the new system.

I like PRR, it's a good idea.

I like that they divorced Dodge from AC as the stacking dodge bonuses are what broke AC in the first place.

I like the better armors. It's so simple it's brilliant, why would armor peak at level 8?

I'm not a fan of how they handled the "monk thing."

I understand the diminishing returns on AC, I know why it's there even if the PnP player in me cringes at the thought.

I like that I can get more defense now in the hardest content than I could before U14.

I don't like that I have to chug a hell of a lot more CSW pots leveling up than I used to.

I like that I can dump Wisdom on my Rangers/Pallies/and Fighters now

I don't like that AC itself really doesn't matter in the hardest content as the mob to-hit are still insane. it seems pretty silly to redo the system and still have it not matter.