Rogue or Arti for Trapfinding on a Ranger?

[droid327]

I'm working on building my next life, it'll be a Ranger...originally I was thinking 18/2 Fighter, but the extra Ranger level doesnt give a whole lot so I might trade it in for something to add trapping on him.

Rogue gives me a sneak die, twice the max Balance, +2 trap saves enhancement, plus...?

Arti gives me a buttload more SP, +1 enhancement on my weapon, arti scrolls(?)

Also, I can wait till later to take Arti, allowing me to rush to Tempest 1 and IC: Slashing by L8.

Thoughts? Anything obvious/dealbreaking I'm overlooking?

[blerkington]

Hi,

The main arguments for one level of rogue over artificer are

* 4 more skill points
* Better choice of class skills
* 1d6 of sneak attack damage plus another 3 from an enhancement.
* Haste boost 1

That may not sound like a lot, but the haste boost and SA damage are quite useful DPS wise. Another six points of damage per strike against most foes is quite worthwhile, never mind the increased damage from a temporarily higher attack speed.

I think artificer has some things going for it too, but to me rogue seems a better fit for a tempest ranger.

Thanks.

[droid327]

Fighter gets Haste Boost I too...and the 1d6 damage, while nice, I'm not sure how often I'll enjoy. I solo mostly, so I hold aggro, and I wont have Bluff, Stun, or any other way to induce sneak vulnerability...

That was one of my conundrums...1d6+3 situational damage, or +1 attack/to-hit all the time, that gets multiplied by STR (Enchant Weapons)

[Mrphish]

i'd say arti, and here's why.

trap skills
some more mana
useful scrolls
a dog to pull levers

your already getting hast boost 1 from your fighter level, and the sneak attack dps from rogue you can get by chooseing to go helf and getting the rogue dilly (2d6 sneak attack after some AP), to get your situational sneak damage more often use weapons with deception on them or wear the golden guile (imp deception) that **** goes off all the time for me, works wonders.

problem solved, that is if you have helf and care about some situational sneak dps.

[droid327]

problem solved, that is if you have helf and care about some situational sneak dps.

I dont, and I do, but its moot I need the extra Human feat, anyway...and its a TR, so there's no point in building it for Shadowdancer either.

[Jaid314]

arti will also give you echoes of power. may or may not come in handy, but it is something to consider.

[Syllph]

Fighter gets Haste Boost I too...and the 1d6 damage, while nice, I'm not sure how often I'll enjoy. I solo mostly, so I hold aggro, and I wont have Bluff, Stun, or any other way to induce sneak vulnerability...

That was one of my conundrums...1d6+3 situational damage, or +1 attack/to-hit all the time, that gets multiplied by STR (Enchant Weapons)

Even if you solo you can still use bluff/deception/improved deception and gain that SA damage. I'm fairly sure blind mobs among a few other debuff also allow for SA.

food for thought.

[droid327]

Even if you solo you can still use bluff/deception/improved deception and gain that SA damage. I'm fairly sure blind mobs among a few other debuff also allow for SA.

food for thought.

I wont have enough skill points, if I'm doing trap skills, to invest any in Bluff - so I dont think it'd be reliable.

Likewise, is Deception still worth it for the occasional extra 1d6 damage? Seems like another suffix (Laceration, Pure Good, etc.) would give me better DPS. I've never actually used a Deception weapon, so I dont know exactly what it works like...

And I dont have VoN, so no GS to go for a Rad II weapon, so the only way I could proc Blind would be on a Scirocco weapon, which isnt nearly as reliable as Blind on crits...and again, just for 1d6 damage that (AFAIK?) doesnt get multiplied?

Thats why I'm asking, though, I'm not sure how useful it is in practice, not just on paper

[Syllph]

I wont have enough skill points, if I'm doing trap skills, to invest any in Bluff - so I dont think it'd be reliable.

Likewise, is Deception still worth it for the occasional extra 1d6 damage? Seems like another suffix (Laceration, Pure Good, etc.) would give me better DPS. I've never actually used a Deception weapon, so I dont know exactly what it works like...

And I dont have VoN, so no GS to go for a Rad II weapon, so the only way I could proc Blind would be on a Scirocco weapon, which isnt nearly as reliable as Blind on crits...and again, just for 1d6 damage that (AFAIK?) doesnt get multiplied?

Thats why I'm asking, though, I'm not sure how useful it is in practice, not just on paper

VoN doesn't give greensteel

But improved deception can come on other items (a ring, and a necklace for example). It's a wonderful ability that not only prevents the mob from harming you (it's turned the wrong direction) but gives you the bonus damage.

[Jaid314]

there's also a dagger in the lords of madness chain that can blind iirc...

[unbongwah]

Also, I can wait till later to take Arti, allowing me to rush to Tempest 1 and IC: Slashing by L8.

While that's possible, you'd want your rog or arty splash at lvl 1 anyway in order to unlock Disable + UMD + OL right away.

How many rgr lvls are you planning? Were you going all the way to 18 (Tempest III) or did you plan to stop sooner? You may want more than just a splash of either...

[droid327]

VoN doesn't give greensteel

But improved deception can come on other items (a ring, and a necklace for example). It's a wonderful ability that not only prevents the mob from harming you (it's turned the wrong direction) but gives you the bonus damage.

VoN, VoT, VoSomethin....doesnt matter, dont have any of them anyway They really have put a kibbosh on putting adventure packs on sale, lately.

Does Deception work as a CC? I didnt realize that - I thought it just flagged them vulnerable to SA. I'll have to craft one up (once the downtime is over) and try it out!

While that's possible, you'd want your rog or arty splash at lvl 1 anyway in order to unlock Disable + UMD + OL right away.

How many rgr lvls are you planning? Were you going all the way to 18 (Tempest III) or did you plan to stop sooner? You may want more than just a splash of either...

Arty gets less SPs than Ranger at L1, so I'd probably want to splash Arty at 2, but your point holds...I was planning to take it at 9, to get IC: Slashing and Tempest I as quick as possible, and then dump all my SPs into Disable Device for a couple levels till it was caught up - and traps really arent a concern under L10, really.

Wont have the SPs for OL or UMD, though. Its just for trapping. Balance is a double-cost skill too ><

I was going 17 rgr/2 fig/1 rog or art, to get a Ranger life, so the focus is on efficiency and immediate effectiveness, not building for endgame necessarily.

[OrodelaSol]

i love my 13rngr 6ftr 1rog build... AA with decent melee and can do all traps so far...couldnt open the stupid door in VoN1 ee though, even with +15 item and tinkers gloves...really? its just a junk chest and u get the key for free later...lol

[Memnir]

I've done a Ranger/Rogue build in the past... and I think the benefits of an Artificer splash has more going for it, now a days. Sneak Attack is nice, but with minimal Rogue levels - it's never going to be amazing. The buffs, UMD, trap-busting, and a Danger Mutt to pull levers is probably going to be of much more practical use, imho.

[OrodelaSol]

i guess the best thing rog has going for it is that it is free...dont have to buy or unlock...but once unlocked or purchased yes arti is superior for various reasons like, dog, scrolls...the dogs r so cute at lvl 1 too so u have a perma-puppy!

[unbongwah]

I was going 17 rgr/2 fig/1 rog or art, to get a Ranger life, so the focus is on efficiency and immediate effectiveness, not building for endgame necessarily.

If you're not going for Tempest III, that opens up some interesting build options, since rgr lvls 16 & 17 are pretty weak. Possible break pts: rgr 12 for Tempest II; rgr 14 for lvl 4 spells; rgr 15 for an extra FE & 2nd lvl 4 spell slot (FOM + CSW). This in turn lets you take extra rog lvls for more sneak atk & skill pts or extra arty lvls for access to higher-level buffs (like elemental weapons @ lvl 3).

[droid327]

If you're not going for Tempest III, that opens up some interesting build options, since rgr lvls 16 & 17 are pretty weak. Possible break pts: rgr 12 for Tempest II; rgr 14 for lvl 4 spells; rgr 15 for an extra FE & 2nd lvl 4 spell slot (FOM + CSW). This in turn lets you take extra rog lvls for more sneak atk & skill pts or extra arty lvls for access to higher-level buffs (like elemental weapons @ lvl 3).

I'd probably go at least Rgr 14 for CSW. I guess I could live without FE: Constructs if it meant gaining something else useful. Fgt 2 still seems to give me everything that Fighter is going to give me...so Arti 3 for the L2 buff, and then...Fgt 3? Arti 4? Rgr 15 I guess for the extra FE and slot after all?

Would you tack those extra Arti levels on at 19/20? Agreed, Ranger 16/17 arent offering much - but, as a TR, I do want to frontload the build, and not be hitting full stride (Tempest II, CSW) just as I'm getting ready to wipe the build.

[unbongwah]

From what you describe, I'd probably go rgr 15 / arty 3 / ftr 2; arty 4 / rgr 14 gets you an extra ranged feat but you lose 4th FE and 2nd 4th lvl rgr spell slot (meaning you couldn't have both CSW & FOM). For feats: Tempest pre-reqs (D/M/SA), Toughness, khopesh, IC:Slash, Power Atk - that's 7 outta 12 total (7 base + 1 human + 2 ftr + 2 epic). Options for the other feats: CL/GC/OC if planning on running epics; metamagics to boost CSWs (Emp Heal, Max, and/or Quik); a couple of ranged feats to boost Manyshot DPS (e.g., IC:Ranged & PBS).

You say you want to "front-load" this build, but what do you want to front-load? Your rgr lvls to get Tempest I/II and spells ASAP? Your ftr lvls to get bonus feats ASAP? Arty lvls to get lvl 2 buffs and W&S Mastery I ASAP?

My suggestion would probably be something like: arty 1, rgr 1-7, ftr 1, rgr 8-15, ftr 2, arty 2-3. You don't get Elemental weapons until lvl 20, unfortunately, but I consider it a relatively small DPS boost.

[Singular]

So...his build really will only reach 18, then jump to 20. He's not going to be using those last 2 levels for anything except picking through a trainer as fast as possible.

[droid327]

From what you describe, I'd probably go rgr 15 / arty 3 / ftr 2; arty 4 / rgr 14 gets you an extra ranged feat but you lose 4th FE and 2nd 4th lvl rgr spell slot (meaning you couldn't have both CSW & FOM). For feats: Tempest pre-reqs (D/M/SA), Toughness, khopesh, IC:Slash, Power Atk - that's 7 outta 12 total (7 base + 1 human + 2 ftr + 2 epic). Options for the other feats: CL/GC/OC if planning on running epics; metamagics to boost CSWs (Emp Heal, Max, and/or Quik); a couple of ranged feats to boost Manyshot DPS (e.g., IC:Ranged & PBS).

You say you want to "front-load" this build, but what do you want to front-load? Your rgr lvls to get Tempest I/II and spells ASAP? Your ftr lvls to get bonus feats ASAP? Arty lvls to get lvl 2 buffs and W&S Mastery I ASAP?

My suggestion would probably be something like: arty 1, rgr 1-7, ftr 1, rgr 8-15, ftr 2, arty 2-3. You don't get Elemental weapons until lvl 20, unfortunately, but I consider it a relatively small DPS boost.

Yeah, I think I came to the same conclusions...not running epic except to grind tokens in Cannith, so my other three feats are probably going to be Empower Heal, and Cleave/Great Cleave.

I meant front loading as in getting the most impactful skills as early as possible...so yeah, rush for heals and spells, then pack in as many feats as early in as I can squeeze them. By L9 I was planning on having Tempest I, IC:S, PA, Cleave, and Toughness, essentially all the tools in my melee toolbox, and to have started on my trapping skills.

Heals > Melee Feats > Trapping > Better Heals and Melee > Elemental Weapons, I guess

So...his build really will only reach 18, then jump to 20. He's not going to be using those last 2 levels for anything except picking through a trainer as fast as possible.

Yeah pretty much And then stripmining the lava caves until i can kill myself