Paladins are not dps

[Ivan_Milic]

But thats like saying that all toons in DDO are dps you can argue that as well. The Pally class by itself is weaker DPS than almost any other. What I would be more concerned about is that someone would be worried about that since there are many ways to cover those deficiencies and good pally players do that (the class enhancements still need major luv) UNFORTUNATELY its one of the classes that is very easy to screw up particulary for DPS due to player planning and gearing required.

Build paladins for dps just like you build barb for dps and pally wont be that much behind.
But everyone thinks all paladins are s&b tanks.
Pally class is weaker dps than almost any other,where is your proof for that?

[noinfo]

Build paladins for dps just like you build barb for dps and pally wont be that much behind.
But everyone thinks all paladins are s&b tanks.
Pally class is weaker dps than almost any other,where is your proof for that?

Where is your proof that they are not?

DPS charts have been done for years on it. Break down prior to U14 clearly had Pallies trailing behind virtually all by a significant margin. This has not changed in anyway since then (don't bother with ED's here since they are relevant too all and these are only patching the class enhancement deficiencies), go and search for yourself if you have forgotten or just plain missed them, though of course if you disagree with those figures please post counter ones here.

BTW I would expect the S/B tanks to be vitually as good dps as any pally since the str bonus to damage for a DOS will give a greater bonus to a variety of mobs over either of the other specialist mob killing PRE. Though fitting in OC would be difficult I would expect for many S/B tank builds with Bastard sword and potentially CE since most would have the full 2handed line anyway and PA.

Edit: to be clear meaning that a s/b could go 2 hander for dps

[Ivan_Milic]

Where is your proof that they are not?

DPS charts have been done for years on it. Break down prior to U14 clearly had Pallies trailing behind virtually all by a significant margin. This has not changed in anyway since then (don't bother with ED's here since they are relevant too all and these are only patching the class enhancement deficiencies), go and search for yourself if you have forgotten or just plain missed them, though of course if you disagree with those figures please post counter ones here.

BTW I would expect the S/B tanks to be vitually as good dps as any pally since the str bonus to damage for a DOS will give a greater bonus to a variety of mobs over either of the other specialist mob killing PRE. Though fitting in OC would be difficult I would expect for many S/B tank builds with Bastard sword and potentially CE since most would have the full 2handed line anyway and PA.

Edit: to be clear meaning that a s/b could go 2 hander for dps

I played barb 2 lives and pally 2 lives too so I know they are not that much behind,did you play both?

[noinfo]

I played barb 2 lives and pally 2 lives too so I know they are not that much behind,did you play both?

I have 2 Barbs 1 at end game fully geared one on the way up (I like to try different play styles and races) I have 2 Pallies as well (almost back up to cap from a TR and is fully geared) so you can say yes I have and there is a massive difference between the 2 of them.


*** Should add that these toons have been around for a long long time and had them at the level 20 cap for ages (and the pally at level 14/16 caps as well) so I know very well the limits of the classes themselves rather than getting confused with what you can do with the ED.

[Ivan_Milic]

Have the same gear on them?
What pre did you take on pally?

[noinfo]

Have the same gear on them?
What pre did you take on pally?

Read what I said about fully geared in my reply (for 20 cap which is the relevant discussion).

Also I tried all of the PRE with them, though I settled in the end on DOS, though the bonus to killing outsiders was good for a while while TOD was end game but not so much anywhere else.

My experience reflects exactly what the figures say about pally (class and enhancement) dps.

[Ivan_Milic]

Read what I said about fully geared in my reply (for 20 cap which is the relevant discussion).

Also I tried all of the PRE with them, though I settled in the end on DOS, though the bonus to killing outsiders was good for a while while TOD was end game but not so much anywhere else.

My experience reflects exactly what the figures say about pally (class and enhancement) dps.

Have the same gear as on barb?
I have no idea what does fully geared mean to you,they have all slots full of gear?

[NancyD]

Personally when Im on my Cleric in Epics (EH and EE) I absolutely love having a high PRR, high AC, high HP, high amped timmying Pally along

I have no idea what DPS they do but when theyre locking down aggro of mobs that break CC and my aura plus renewal is keeping them standing Im a happy healer.


I'll take a good Pally any day

Signed. Team play and here's to olaying your class and locking down aggro.

[Postumus]

A pally hits like a barb on a smite, a barb hits like a barb on every swing.

Until the Barb's red bar IV drip dries up, then he mostly lies on the ground doing nothing.


But SF pots!!! Yeah great, -10 to STR, -9 to saves, all while attacking and moving at half speed. At that point I'm pretty sure your barb's dps drops below a paladin's on every swing.


No AC, no PRR, and the worst self-healing in the game period. On top of that, barb's are basically mana vampires to anyone with a blue bar. There's a reason you rarely, if ever, see barbs posting noteworthy solo achievements in the achievement threads.

[sigtrent]

My experience...

1. Paladin is not a good pure class, it almost always benefits from splashing 2 levels of something, often a bit more. Its optimal DPS break is probably around level 14 or so where you get Zeal, possibly 16. So you should assume a minor haste boost or damage boost from another class.

2. Folks seem to ignore the paladin buffs like divine might and the active moves like divine sacrifice. They are sustainable and not insignificant. DS is especially good on a TWF paladin.

3. Smite is situational. Against named mobs it washes out, but against trash mobs its a nice DPS boost on a high crit range character. And again, it tends to work best on TWF that gets two smite attempts per use.

In practice...
Barbarian beats paladin hands down!
Monk beats paladin hands down!
Rogue beats paladin if they can ensure sneak attacks, since I play mostly in small groups this isn't always the case.
Fighter does better DPS but only by a fairly narrow margin and in small groups they have to spend more time tending to their wounds as where paladin healing lets them stay in the fight.
Paladin beats out ranger most of the time, poor ranger... And paladin beats out the various battle caster types.

My experience is that monks rule the trash mobs with their speed, insta kills, defenses, ect...
Barbarians are king of crushing red names, provided someone is healing them or pulling agro off them.
Paladins rock as solo or small group characters as they can put out enough DPS to get the quest done, but don't really need anyone to look after them (except on epic elite, then they could use a healer as you run out of mana/LOH a bit too fast but the healing duties are pretty light)

Fighter is good DPS but without the speed of monk or the sustainability of paladin, why not be a barbarian? Of course tanking is a different story, I think fighter is nice for making a Tank/DPS switch character as where paladin tanks don't switch to DPS so well.

Ranger... poor ranger, not sure what they do now that elf X makes a better ranged character. Mostly I use ranger to provide feats for characters that want to do TWF and Ranged.

[Micron]

Ranger... poor ranger, not sure what they do now that elf X makes a better ranged character. Mostly I use ranger to provide feats for characters that want to do TWF and Ranged.

That's what they still do. TWF and range. Grab cocoon (assuming you have some spellpower and heal amp) and you can happily self-heal in melee combat without having to withdraw just like a pally can do, you don't even have to bother with CSW most of the time. Against favoured enemies the damage is still good (+14 dmg per swing at level 20). Manyshot isn't too shabby as far as DPS goes either. Saves aren't great but between evasion, sup parrying bracers and Brace for Impact twist the Reflex should be alright at least.

Admittedly, when you don't fight FEs, the DPS is gimp. I usually switch to debuffing/level draining then. But if you select the FEs carefully and don't mind switching around a bit every now and then depending on what content you're playing the most, you fight FEs most of the time including all raid bosses.

I know you're talking about pure builds but if you splashed your ranger with a bit of monk and/or fighter so you can grab cleaves, OC and possibly stun, I don't see why your ranger shouldn't rock your socks like anyone else.

[bjones0064]

They certainly are not built to be top DPS in the game, but with epic destinies being what they are now: if you can't build a Paladin with high DPS potential, then you should "let the air out of the ball and go home" you simply have no idea of what you are saying...

Never heard someone say, "you should let the air out of the ball and go home." Pretty funny comment

[jeremyt]

I'd have to say I click accept reflexively to folks off channel/friends list be they paladin or monk. If they show up to EEs with a shield when there is no tanking to be found, we scoff at them and request they bring their DPS setup for areas where its obvious the s&b slot is just being carried around.

Its when I enter the wondrous and scary realm of pug LFMs and I'm holding the star and i cringe as the pure paladin hits the LFM..ya ill probably accept but ya, I will probably also be let down and end up carrying a completely worthless toon through some content he shouldn't be in. A dedicated tank toon really does nothing but slow most content up. Tactics, DPS and player positioning rule the day in the 6 man quests I run. Oh and DC casters, obviously DC casters make everyone else look bad/great depending on their spec (destroy or CC).

Haek, really really tacky to keep bringing up an achievement you posted out of bad taste using a glaring bug. IMO you need to get all those posts you played in god-mode removed to restore some validity and sense of achievement to the achievement forum. Jug is an outstanding build yes. Let it stand alone, having every ED active at once would make just about any build scream through content, referencing those posts while you played with that bug is seriously bad form.