"The Middle Ground" a Hybrid Assassin build

[unbongwah]

Minor correction / suggestion:

Essential Feats

• Toughness (lvl1)
• Power Attack/Precision (lvl1) --> Take power attack initially and swap once you hit lvl 20

Precision req's BAB 1, so you wouldn't be allowed to swap it for a lvl 1 feat on a pure rogue (BAB 0) - unless Fred's bugged in your favor (for a change). I would take TWF @ lvl 1 and PA/Precision @ lvl 3.

[bhgiant]

With a high dc, assasinate is very reliable. Even with a very high dps, when the quest is over, I would give the kill count to the assasin. All while taking less damage.

Ran a EH VoN5 the other day on my Shadowdancer. Checked the kill count just out of curiosity. Me and this monk had >2x the kills that other players had. I was really surprised.

[Sploigy]

Thanks everyone for the comments I really appreciate the feedback

I would go with the balizarde rapiers or celestria shortsword rather then khopeshes. The khopesh profiency feat could be better used for something else.
....
I have been waiting for the enhancement pass a bit to really change my pure rogue build. I am thinking long term dex based will be the way to go
...

My thinking is that epic toughness and a higher con is really nice on a rogue. Then you add healing amp, blur/incorpeality, and dodge for defenses and improved evasion.

I agree that balizarde/celestria are prob the way to go endgame, but I still think the Khopesh Feat would be useful for leveling. So I still think I might take it for 1-20 where decent crit damage could significantly increase my DPS.

As for the enhancement pass, I spent some time looking for posts from the devs regarding Dex-to-damage feats/enhancements and unfortunately I couldn't find anything substantial. The only solid evidence I could find was a dev post talking about how they are thinking of adding it, and would like to make it available in heroic levels. Given the level of uncertainty here (When will the enhancement update go out, how will this be implemented, balance issues of letting one stat determine reflex, AC, to-hit and Dmg etc) I feel that it is just too big of a risk to base a build around what is basically hearsay. Then there is always the option to LR if these changes are significant, but TBH I think the enhancement pass will be so significant that it will prob warrant another TR.

I also agree with your point on CON and this build's HP's, obviously being human helps as it opens the window for a +3 CON tome, Greater adaptability CON and toughness III, to boost HPs. Ideally I would of liked to boost CON higher but there was no way that I could see to maintain a decent STR,DEX and INT while also boosting CON.
I obviously plan to Maximise my HP through Items, and Hope that by also maxing dodge, incorporable and other "miss-chance" effects, to make my toon very difficult to hit in the first place.

Assassinate is in a bad spot. There are very few mobs that you can assassinate faster than a max str rogue would DPS down.

I would respectfully disagree, I find that most mobs are vulnerable to Sneak Attack, esp since around U14 and the plethora of fort reducing items/abilities that were introduced to the game. Additionally from my own personal experiences I find that assassinate adds great DPS in EE/EH.
Mobs in EE tend to have around ~5000hp at least(see forum post regarding Neg Levels Vs DPS spells), It takes me at most 5 seconds to stealth and assassinate 1-2mobs, that works out as atleast 1,000 DPS. I find it very hard to believe that pure DPS builds can produce this damage output.
Now I realise this is a moot point for bosses, but really I find that 90% of quests are Mobs, and Mobs can often cause some of the worst problems for groups compared to boss fights

LOL.
Oh, Insightful strikes doesnt work via scroll casting, so you are SoL there.

Cheers Mellkor, thanks for that Info, I presumed there had to be some flaw, or else you would see it being done alot more often.
I'll also look into the arti dilli a bit, its just I havn't bought the half-blood pack, so my knowledge of those races is limited at best.

Imho, both Drow and Half-Elves are worth discussing:
Drow have Dex, Int and Cha, and all these stats are of interest for your build. -2 Con is a downer, but then: At cap, a difference of 25 HPs is not a big deal.

I 100% agree with you, and think drow would make an excellent choice if this was a 36pt build, but the major benefits of going human that drow just cant match is the extra toughness, double damage boost, healing amp and bouns feat, IMO these outweigh the better stat distribution of the drow.

Also TYVM for that info on proficiency feats, I thought it was still just -4 to-hit.... and so was tempted to just use a khopesh without the feat, -25% is a significant difference, but as you said yourself as long as your are getting sneak attacks your to hit will be huge.

OP, I'm curious to know why you chose not to take Slippery Mind. Also, I really like Precision, little to no reason not to get it. Also, since you are INT/STR based, I would recommend Insightful Reflexes. It boosts your Reflex by a good margin and lets you dump DEX items for an extra slot. You loose out on some AC but it's difficult to get your AC high enough to be really useful anyway imo.

I didn't take slippery mind because I feel that my rogues will saves are so low that being able to have a reroll wouldn't make much of a difference, ie If my rogue will only make his save on a twenty (pretty much the norm in EE) then slippery mind wont really add much. Additionally most will based effects can be countered with the appropriate buffs (mainly FOM).

As for Insightful reflexes, I've listed it as an option but since I'm raising my dex anyways, my reflex save should be reasonable, from what I can recall off the top of my head IR only adds +4 to my reflex, whether or not you think this is significant on a char with improved evasion is upto you.

Regarding precision, I feel that for doesn't start to matter until lvls 18-20, and there are plenty of ways to reduce it even then, while there are very few ways to mimic the increased damage of PA. This changes in epic content which is why I intend to swap PA for precision then. If only precision allowed SA on undead, then it would be a different story.

You forgot about half-elves, they're on the same page as humans really.
Also 2 times INT with human adp?

True in retrospect, h-elf with arti dili is prob the better way to go, this allows you to change the second human adapt to CON for toughness III

Precision req's BAB 1, so you wouldn't be allowed to swap it for a lvl 1 feat on a pure rogue (BAB 0) - unless Fred's bugged in your favor (for a change). I would take TWF @ lvl 1 and PA/Precision @ lvl 3.

WOW cant believe I missed that, thank you so much, that would of caused major headaches later


Once again thank you everyone for the comments really enjoying the discussion, esp with the current downtime

[karl_k0ch]

As for the enhancement pass, I spent some time looking for posts from the devs regarding Dex-to-damage feats/enhancements and unfortunately I couldn't find anything substantial. The only solid evidence I could find was a dev post talking about how they are thinking of adding it, and would like to make it available in heroic levels. Given the level of uncertainty here (When will the enhancement update go out, how will this be implemented, balance issues of letting one stat determine reflex, AC, to-hit and Dmg etc) I feel that it is just too big of a risk to base a build around what is basically hearsay. Then there is always the option to LR if these changes are significant, but TBH I think the enhancement pass will be so significant that it will prob warrant another TR.

The thread you are looking for is this one: It's a write-down of some obviously not finalized versions of Assassin which managed to sneak into a Lammania build:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=394938

There's also Shinao, Henshin and Acrobat, iirc. Just search for Rough-In on the Lammania forums, Trekna named them all the same.

[Tid12]

So I was thinking..how to fit Overwhelming Critical on a rogue?

It looks like you have 2 free feats at the moment but you still need Cleave + Great Cleave + OC.

Imho, you could ditch Toughness for Cleave, Great Cleave at 18 and OC at 24. Toughness would give you mostly 47 hp (Racial Toughness II) so it's not a big loss there imho.

Biggest problem is to get STR 23. With a +4 Tome, you just need a STR of 19.

STR 15
DEX 16+2lv+3tome
CON 14
INT 16+4lv+4tome

STR 16+4tome+3lv
DEX 16+4tome+1lv
CON 16
INT 14+4tome+2lv

It might be worth it imho. You lose 1 Assassinate DC, Toughness + Racial Toughness II (47 HP) but gain +1 Critical Multiplier on 19-20. With Balizarde, that would be 15-18/x3, 19-20/x4.

This would also mean that you have to give up to Precision for PA since it's a pre-requisite of Cleave. I might do something similar on my rogue.

Too bad Cleave and GC don't proc offhand (AFAIK) or this would be a win-win.

[Sploigy]

Tid, I'd be interested to see how that goes if your going to try it on your rogue but the only problems I can see for trying it on my build would be:
(1) Loss of 47hp is in my opinion significant, considering that if at all possible I wanted epic toughness(50hp), the way I see it is that at lvl20 this toons HP would be somewhere in the 450 region (unbuffed). So the loss of toughness equates to ~10%, whether or not you think that is significant is upto you.

(2) Overwhelming crit would really benefit a STR build more, as the +damage from STR would be multiplied by the OC, this would also mean that taking Khopesh proficiency becomes even more important in order to get a x4 multiplier. This does raise an interesting point though, the STR based cleaving, great cleaving rogue with OC Vs the Int based assassinating/Consuming rogue... TBH I think that if cleave+great cleave are viable this build could outperform the Int based build in trash clearing and boss DPS, which would really turn things on their head

(3) Finally, this build requires a 36 point build which I don't have unfortunately


Karl thank you for the link to the assassin enhancement preview, it made for some very interesting reading

[Winter_storm]

My rogue is a Khopesh str halfling lvl 20 and its been a while since I have played. Just recently been playing again and noticed me dying more often. I can hit pretty hard in sneak attack mode but my saves and assassinate is not the same as I remember it.

I did notice before I left DDO that my assassinate was better at 16+ int but never thought putting all levels into int as a build, so kudos to you guys (I took a lot of flack for posting builds with 16 int before).

So now would like to LR my halfing rogue for current and coming up u17 and have been reading around. Maybe the stats would be 14/16/14/16/8/8. Gonna collect some rapiers and pikes in the mean time and decide. If any suggestions on a dps survivor, trapped build please let me know. still reading around for the moment. can't believe how much the rogue forums have changed....

[Kmnh]

I would respectfully disagree, I find that most mobs are vulnerable to Sneak Attack, esp since around U14 and the plethora of fort reducing items/abilities that were introduced to the game. Additionally from my own personal experiences I find that assassinate adds great DPS in EE/EH.
Mobs in EE tend to have around ~5000hp at least(see forum post regarding Neg Levels Vs DPS spells), It takes me at most 5 seconds to stealth and assassinate 1-2mobs, that works out as atleast 1,000 DPS. I find it very hard to believe that pure DPS builds can produce this damage output.
Now I realise this is a moot point for bosses, but really I find that 90% of quests are Mobs, and Mobs can often cause some of the worst problems for groups compared to boss fights

Well, I think this guy agrees with me . The look on his face is priceless.

[Sploigy]

Wow that is some awesome DPS man o_o

[Tid12]

Well, I think this guy agrees with me . The look on his face is priceless.

With Blitz and soloing. Not really a good comparison.

Also, that is an Orange named IIRC. You can still Assassinate 2 mobs at once with a good DC in less than 2 second and in no way you can kill 2 mobs in 2 seconds with just DPS, even without Blitz. That would be 1-hit mobs in EE, not happening anytime soon.

Another point: You are showing your DPS with LD and blitzed. You are also using a War Hammer, coupled with Pulverizer, it is a x4 weapon. The OP says he is planning to go for SD but this does not prevent him to go and try LD and blitz, twisting +6 Assassinate DC.

I also think that mob is stunned for 50% helpless mob damage (but I'm not sure of that, thou seeing 300 SA dmg makes me think it is), using Sense Weakness for another +30% damage to helpless mobs.

So yeah, not really a good comparison. You are just trying to make your point in your own but wrong way.

[karl_k0ch]

I also think that mob is stunned for 50% helpless mob damage (but I'm not sure of that, thou seeing 300 SA dmg makes me think it is), using Sense Weakness for another +30% damage to helpless mobs.

When you attack a helpless mob, the extra sneak attack damage you get (+50%, or up to 80% with sense weakness) is not displayed with the regular extra sneak attack damage, but instead added to the first number.
A huge SA number as in the screen shot is indicating either Adrenaline or Master's Blitz, which is applied here to boost all damage by a substantial amount.

[Tid12]

When you attack a helpless mob, the extra sneak attack damage you get (+50%, or up to 80% with sense weakness) is not displayed with the regular extra sneak attack damage, but instead added to the first number.
A huge SA number as in the screen shot is indicating either Adrenaline or Master's Blitz, which is applied here to boost all damage by a substantial amount.

Well, I didn't know about the SA thing.

But are you sure about that? 300 SA seems too much to just be a 50% boost from Blitz. Assuming you deal 120 avg damage, in no way you can get 300 SA on every hit with just +50% damage. However, if you count the 80% with Sense Weakness, if perfectly fits the numbers.

120 base avg + 60 from blitz + 96 (80% dmg) = 276, close to that img's numbers.

It still isn't a fair comparison and shouldn't have been made here anyway.

[Kmnh]

A full blitz is not a 50% boost. It's 250%. You need a very good excuse not to have blitz on a melee.

I posted that screenshot because I had it in my folder and I thought the 1000 DPS comparison was funny.

That orange-named EE miniboss was stunned, so it was taking +130% damage. Anything that can be assassinated can be stunned. I don't think you can assassinate EE otange- nameds.

The damage in that screenshot adds up to somewhere above 8000 average dps. Take out the blitz and helplessness and it is still a fair bit ahead of the 1000 that assassinate supposedly has.

Edit re: Warhammer: The warhammer doesn't become x4 on all hits. It's 15-18/x3 19-20/x5 on my build. The offhand Balizarde has the same profile.

[Stormraiser]

Ran a EH VoN5 the other day on my Shadowdancer. Checked the kill count just out of curiosity. Me and this monk had >2x the kills that other players had. I was really surprised.

Von5 is not a good quest to look at kill counts. Look at a quest where you go in a linear line and not where people often have to wait while others go do certain things. If you want max kill counts there, just farm the WF in the maze...

[Tid12]

A full blitz is not a 50% boost. It's 250%. You need a very good excuse not to have blitz on a melee.

I posted that screenshot because I had it in my folder and I thought the 1000 DPS comparison was funny.

That orange-named EE miniboss was stunned, so it was taking +130% damage. Anything that can be assassinated can be stunned. I don't think you can assassinate EE otange- nameds.

The damage in that screenshot adds up to somewhere above 8000 average dps. Take out the blitz and helplessness and it is still a fair bit ahead of the 1000 that assassinate supposedly has.

Edit re: Warhammer: The warhammer doesn't become x4 on all hits. It's 15-18/x3 19-20/x5 on my build. The offhand Balizarde has the same profile.

So, stunning a mob, hitting it for 3 good-even 4 or more seconds is faster than assassinating 2 mobs at once? Seems funny. And false.

You may need a very good excuse to not use blitz on a melee or you can simply not enjoy it. It is not the point of the discussion.

The point was: Assassinating one mob, two in most cases, is slower than DPSing them down. That is false, however you wanna put it. Your showing off numbers in the most perfect situation (Helpless, Warhammer, blitzed) is just a weak excuse to make the point that DPS is faster than Assassinate. It is not, get over it.

Now, I'm not saying that I don't like your numbers. Or your dps is weak. Or you should gimp your dps for Assassinate. Or anything like that at all. Don't read between the lines and don't put words into my mouth. I'm just saying that DPSing two mobs is slower than Assassinate. Full point.

[Kmnh]

So, stunning a mob, hitting it for 3 good-even 4 or more seconds is faster than assassinating 2 mobs at once? Seems funny. And false.

You may need a very good excuse to not use blitz on a melee or you can simply not enjoy it. It is not the point of the discussion.

The point was: Assassinating one mob, two in most cases, is slower than DPSing them down. That is false, however you wanna put it. Your showing off numbers in the most perfect situation (Helpless, Warhammer, blitzed) is just a weak excuse to make the point that DPS is faster than Assassinate. It is not, get over it.

Now, I'm not saying that I don't like your numbers. Or your dps is weak. Or you should gimp your dps for Assassinate. Or anything like that at all. Don't read between the lines and don't put words into my mouth. I'm just saying that DPSing two mobs is slower than Assassinate. Full point.

Well, in my experience, it's faster. When the mobs have 6k hp and you do 2k+ dps, with access to aoe attacks, assassinate is a waste of time. If they had , say, 15k hp, assassinate would be useful.

[Humperdink]

Well, in my experience, it's faster. When the mobs have 6k hp and you do 2k+ dps, with access to aoe attacks, assassinate is a waste of time. If they had , say, 15k hp, assassinate would be useful.

I think Tid's point was how often are you actually doing 2k+ DPS? Outside of solo play, not very often since you need the killing stroke to maintain it. If playing in an actual party, that doesn't happen as often as most anyone running a character in LD would agree. So if playing in a party scenario Assassinate will more likely kill faster.

[Kmnh]

I think Tid's point was how often are you actually doing 2k+ DPS? Outside of solo play, not very often since you need the killing stroke to maintain it. If playing in an actual party, that doesn't happen as often as most anyone running a character in LD would agree. So if playing in a party scenario Assassinate will more likely kill faster.

The thing is that as a rogue your single-target DPS is higher than any other class when you start blitzing. The only way to not get blitz going is by mistiming when you start it.

[Pilgrim1]

I have seen Kmnh play his build and its a strong build. But I think its power comes not from blitz but from his access to cleaves. I know from personal experience that with combat brute and sense weekness you do a insane amount of damage to single targets (regardless of blitz). However stunning blow is on a 15 second timer and the mob is dead shorty after a successful stunning blow. Then your left with DPS that's slightly higher than a int based rogue (as int based can have almost the same feets + gear + destiny setup).

I would consider stunning blow to be effectively an assassinate on a similar 15 second timer. Now, stunning fist on the other hand is on a 6 second timer.

Your best bet, and it runs with the theam of doing a middle ground assassin build, is to run in LD and try to fit in a workable stunning blow.

PS. My experiences are from running a 19 rogue/1monk build trying for stunning fist and assassinate.

[Tid12]

I think Tid's point was how often are you actually doing 2k+ DPS? Outside of solo play, not very often since you need the killing stroke to maintain it. If playing in an actual party, that doesn't happen as often as most anyone running a character in LD would agree. So if playing in a party scenario Assassinate will more likely kill faster.

Example:

1) you need to stun a target before you actually DPS him and killing him will take already 2 seconds and 2) assuming, by pure fantasy, that your stun will be off cooldown already, you will need to stun and DPS another target, for another 3 seconds, 6 total. In 6 seconds, you killed 2 mobs. Assassinate can kill both of them in pretty much 2 second.

Your single target may be even 800k DPS but unless you are 1-hitting mobs there-is-no-way that Assassinate would be slower than DPS on trash.