Neverwinter

[dark270]

*knowing cryptic history, busts out laughing*

yeah this is *key*, STO was a major flop, after the nerfed everything to timbuktoo. i played it for awhile then bam, they turbined it. no thx.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Can you actually make good dungeons with this.......foundry?

I mean it all sounds interesting.....but do you guys already know what can be done with this foundry?

It could be a very simple tool...or even worse just another money maker from cryptic...where you have to buy...rooms...monsters....treasure chests before you can even start to think about making a good dungeon.

Dont know...im not imagining it to be a very complex dungeon maker tool.......dont compare it to the neverwinter nights tool.

[GoldyGopher]

Have you Played "Star Trek Online" or "Champions Online"?

While both Genres may not be you thing but they do show what Cryptic is thinking about when it comes to game play.

Let's take a moment to discuss Star Trek Online.
Star Trek online offers random missions under the Genesis System and User Generated Content (UGC) using the Foundry. Sounds good so far doesn't it.

The random missions from the Genesis System are basically half-a-dozen scripts that play out in randomly generated world settings (you know purple hue sky vs. azure sky).
That might be a lie there may be eight scripts but you get the idea. Even after the addition of the diplomatic missions to the system once you learn the basis of the script its easy to skip ahead.

The Foundry in Star Trek Online, well Cryptic is still telling people that the system is still very much under development and will continue to be so for a very long time.

Currently after two years there 50,000 campaigns and missions in Star Trek Online that are UGC. 30,000 of those were created in the first 30 days of launch and many of the first 30,000 are in unplayable condition as players experimented with the system. In the following 23 months only 20,000 missions have been created using the foundry or less than 900 a month. Those figures come from Craig Zinkievich the COO of Cryptic and Executive Producer of D&D:Neverwiner so I put some faith in the numbers he has publically presented. So out of that 50,000 missions some small number are actually truly playable, whether means 5,000 or 500 that's up to you to decide; however I have heard from more than one hard core player suggest the latter number is probably more accurate.
If you assume that Star Trek Online has 50,000 players a month (no clue on the number here just pulling one out of thin air) and only 900 missions are created a month, at most only 1.8% of the player base is even trying to make content, Craig says less than 2% of the player base creates UGC publically. And the fact of the matter many players only create one mission and never fully complete it leaving them in unplayable condition.

What more telling is Craig's speech that only 20% of players that have accessed the game from launch of the Foundry to today have EVER played even one single user generated content mission and a majority of the players who played user content don't play it again. It actually a miniscule amount of players that regularly play foundry missions. He hinted at a number close to 1% in an interview.

How will Cryptic help identify good content created under Foundry, players are required to rate the content upon completion. The five star system is supposed to help identify good content, but Cryptic and Craig acknowledge it is too easy to rig the system.

Cryptic has done more than one nerf to UGC, and while some of it is deserved I mean Mob Stacking to allow single AOE to wipe out 20 to 50 mobs had to be addressed others make you scratch your head. My favorite is the new limits on rewards from playing UGC is limited, in Star Trek Online you are limited to 4 hours worth of XP/loot in user generated content in a day. So if you complete a mission at 4 hours and 1 second no XP for you.

Nothing that Cryptic has done with the foundry and genesis system brings me any confidence in the new system.

The big elephant in the room question is "when is Cryptic going to start monetizing the foundry system?" There is little question at some point under F2P that they are going to have to go down that road, the system costs too much to develop and players he build worthwhile content are going to want to be rewarded.
Cryptic has repeatedly stated you don't monetize user generated content in anyway however what else have they said ....

EDIT: One of the reasons Craig Zinkievich and other Cryptic staff have been upfront about the Foundry ion Star Trek Online is they are attempting to persuade players that it is "improved" for Neverwinter, that they are learning from what came before.

There are a number of youTube postings about game play as the press got to play the game last weekend, so check out youTube.

[Postumus]

Don't really get why people are upset at them offering optional expensive purchase options..

I don't see people getting upset about it, I see people laughing into their shirt sleeves and smirking.

I mean the games pure free to play... . Youll only have to pay for extra classes, races, char slots - etc..

Those two sentences contradict each other from my perspective. You also pay for priority log in, in game currency to purchase in game items from the auction house (not even DDO has that), exclusive hirelings and mounts, and 'mystery bag' power items. So anyone that spends $20, $60, or $200 has an advantage over all the free players.

It's not like the expensive pack includes anything at all important. It's almost all cosmetic stuff and a couple other things you could buy seperately.

1. Priority log in.
2. Unique Mounts.
3. Unique Hireling/pets.
4. Unique playable race.
5. XX thousands of astral shards (in game currency).
6. "Mystery bag" L60 magic item.


That's more than a couple (ie- two) and none of that seems to be cosmetic to me.

And I think your underestimating the vast amount of talented people there are in every good rpgs modding community. I mean look at NWN, Skyrim, or any other good rpg with modding tools available, they all have vastly more content available then any one player could ever check out. NW will not be any different.

Do you play primarily for 'the story?' Not game mechanics, not class builds, not loot, but the story? (And by 'story' I also include quest design). Because I don't see how foundry users can possibly design new, unique loot, or anything meaningful beyond quest layout and story.


I will play games for 'the story,' as will a lot of old time PnPers since that's why most of us played PnP in the first place. Story is a draw for RPGers, but will that be enough for the MMOers?


I don't have a problem whatsoever with how Neverwinter online will earn profit. I just find it extremely how some of the same posters who have repeatedly expressed their dissatisfaction with certain elements of DDO are willing to turn a blind eye to the very same elements (or worse) in Neverwinter online.


The only draw Neverwinter has for me is if the foundry is intuitive and yet complex enough to allow for expression of individual creativity. If it limits builders to producing bland content, then I won't even bother. Time will tell.

[Missing_Minds]

The big elephant in the room question is "when is Cryptic going to start monetizing the foundry system?" There is little question at some point under F2P that they are going to have to go down that road, the system costs too much to develop and players he build worthwhile content are going to want to be rewarded.
Cryptic has repeatedly stated you don't monetize user generated content in anyway however what else have they said ....

You don't monitorize the players, you monitorize the creators.

You charge people willing to build money for additional tools or graphics, but you let the players be able to play anything created for free.

You reward builders with in game currency based on their quest created rating, number of voters, and how often it gets run. This would enable a good designer to be able to continue to generate content that is solid for just investment amounts into the tool, but any average person would not be able to generate monies much at all. Of course you have to both put limits on this and a record system to watch for quest rigging.

[Jay203]

doesn't look the the hero friend key will work for beta one =\
i COULD drop the money for the founder pack though.... hMMmmmm

[Postumus]

You don't monitorize the players, you monitorize the creators.

You charge people willing to build money for additional tools or graphics, but you let the players be able to play anything created for free.

Seeing as how they are already charging for beta, that sounds about right. Charge the testers, charge the content creators. If they can pull that off it is a pretty interesting business model: charge other people to make your content.

Looks like that 'special friend of a founder' key gets you nothing better than a spot on the alternate list for the later tests.

[patang01]

Seeing as how they are already charging for beta, that sounds about right. Charge the testers, charge the content creators. If they can pull that off it is a pretty interesting business model: charge other people to make your content.

Looks like that 'special friend of a founder' key gets you nothing better than a spot on the alternate list for the later tests.

They charge people for playing the beta?

Wow. Great confidence in their end product.

[Uska]

They charge people for playing the beta?

Wow. Great confidence in their end product.

Not exactly if you buy one of their prebuy packs you get access for closed beta for sure or you can fill out an app for free access but dont couint on it or you can used the code for one of the mounts from pc gamer and get a limited time access to beta.

[Missing_Minds]

They charge people for playing the beta?
Wow. Great confidence in their end product.

If you want in without hoping on a lottery.

You had to pre purchace Torchlight II, Be a lifer in CO or STO, buy one of the Founders packs they are selling.
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with offering people who did those things an invite into Beta as you are already a customer that was willing to spend money on them. (them now being PW and new games they are publishing.)

[GoldyGopher]

Not exactly if you buy one of their prebuy packs you get access for closed beta for sure or you can fill out an app for free access but dont couint on it or you can used the code for one of the mounts from pc gamer and get a limited time access to beta.

If your pre-purchase either the "hero fo the north" ($200) or the "Guardian of the Neverwinter" ($60) packs you are guarenteed access to all three weekends of the beta. The Neverwinter Starter Pack does not give you access to the beta by itself.

The Friend Key is good for one weekend of the beta (I forget which one maybe March 22nd?).

PC Gamer magazine is giving away codes with limited access to the beta and one of two mounts. I have no idea what limited means, it could be like the Friend Key.

A random number of people who were registered with PWE were given beta keys.

[Zonixx]

This is a PWE game, anyone who has ever played any PWE game before knows it will be 100% pay to win.

[One_Nasty]

Neverwinter reminds me a lot of a game called Tabula Rasa, which until recently was the most expensive MMORPG ever created. Richard Garriott, Lord British in Ultima, lead the developing team at NCSoft in what is arguably the largest game flop in history. Development on the oft delayed Tabula Rasa started in 2001 and after 4 years of delays the game was finally released in 2007. Much of the game was reworked multiple times as the game lacked a clear focus on what the game was going to be, in the end the game cost in excess of 105 million dollars and returned under 5 million in revenue. If you include NCSoft legal bill from General British Ouster and the operations costs the game lost nearly 200 million dollars.
Neverwinter has been delayed several times, it will be nearly two years from the initial release date, assuming it ships on the current schedule. The focus of the game has changed multiple time, it was a PVP MMO, then a Co-Op RPG, now a full blown MMO I guess in the same mold as Star Trek Online. While lacking a name like Richard Garriott's on the cover it does say D&D Neverwinter, with clear connections to Neverwinter Nights.

My little band of heroes has been discussing Neverwinter as a potential replacement for DDO, so while not a regular poster or even a Khyber regular we have had many discussions on the upcoming game.

Our DM for PnP I think has an eternally (Censored) when it comes to Neverwinter and has been carrying on about the possibilities of the Foundry for almost a year. I'll let you guess from that one little snippet of our gang who is the ringleader in discussions on Neverwinter.
IMHO when I look at the Foundry unfortunately it is extremely an limiting tool at this time, while you can make cosmetic changes to mobs every level 15 Wizard is exactly the same under the covers, same spells, same AI there is no way to personalize the mobs other than cosmetically.

Moving beyond the Foundry our group has really talked about what the game offer us. We have yet to really answer that question. Things that we consider short comings in DDO are basically the same short comings in Neverwinter; except maybe finding a healer and I am not sure that is enough reason to move on.

I totally understand why some people will get excited about Neverwinter, I am just not one of them. I have no interest in spending hours creating content even if I can get some in game money from players and I really am not excited about playing other people's content. Our DM has a totally different feeling.

[Shade]

Those two sentences contradict each other from my perspective. You also pay for priority log in, in game currency to purchase in game items from the auction house (not even DDO has that), exclusive hirelings and mounts, and 'mystery bag' power items. So anyone that spends $20, $60, or $200 has an advantage over all the free players.

Not even DDO has that?

Have you not seen this forum:
http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=63
.. 90% of the posts are people buying/selling turbine points. And with the majority of the strong loot in the game in the last few updates and in comin in U17 being unbound, you can pretty much buy you way to having a extremely well equiped char without any actaul gameplay.

While I don't support it either way, the fact cryptic is making it safe to do so without risking getting scamed is hardly a negative thing imo. With gold farmers being so rampant these day it's something thats mostly unavoidable no matter what anyways.
They also do not directly sell ingame currency. The main currency is the same as DDO, copper, silver, etc.. You can't buy it with real money period.

Astral Diamonds can buy some ingame stuff, sure, But you also cannot buy astral diamonds with real money. And they are pretty easy to earn ingame anyways. Me and Jay just played for the day, and I earned several thousand. Pretty sure earning the full 125k the 60 dollar pack comes with wouldn't really take that long at all.

The one thing you can buy directly is zen, which you can also not use to buy ingame items.

What you can do is trade zen for astral diamonds, via an ingame auction house. Players have to actually put the diamonds or zen up for sale, theres no direct trade from cryptic, they only facilitate the players desire to pay to win.

So imo its slightly less worse then Turbine, who in addition to doing the same things via the marketplace forums (in a manner less safe to the players involved) also directly sells rare and powerful items like +4 tomes to players.

It's a slight, but imo important difference in standards.

[Postumus]

Not even DDO has that?

Nope. You cannot purchase plat from the DDO store to purchase in game items from the auction house. I don't think there is anything you can purchase from the DDO store that you can sell/trade for in game currency or items.

Have you not seen this forum:
http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=63
.. 90% of the posts are people buying/selling turbine points.

That is completely different. You aren't selling TPs in game. You are making an out of game transaction by agreeing to trade in game items for out of game TP cards. No different from purchasing plat from plat farmers out of game.

They also do not directly sell ingame currency. The main currency is the same as DDO, copper, silver, etc.. You can't buy it with real money period.

The developers stated you can only purchase items from the auction house with astral shards. Is this not true?

Astral Diamonds can buy some ingame stuff, sure, But you also cannot buy astral diamonds with real money. And they are pretty easy to earn ingame anyways.


The one thing you can buy directly is zen, which you can also not use to buy ingame items.

What you can do is trade zen for astral diamonds, via an ingame auction house. Players have to actually put the diamonds or zen up for sale, theres no direct trade from cryptic, they only facilitate the players desire to pay to win.

So you can buy zen with real money, in game, to trade for astral shards, in game? How do you not see this is the exact same thing as buying in game currency?

So imo its slightly less worse then Turbine, who in addition to doing the same things via the marketplace forums (in a manner less safe to the players involved) also directly sells rare and powerful items like +4 tomes to players.

Turbine doesn't do anything via the marketplace forums, players do. It's no different than if I sent you an in game tell and said I'd trade you $ via pay pal for item x. There is currently no mechanism for players to purchase in game currency to trade for in game items. Those transactions have to take place outside the game. You understand that, right?

[Missing_Minds]

Nope. You cannot purchase plat from the DDO store to purchase in game items from the auction house. I don't think there is anything you can purchase from the DDO store that you can sell/trade for in game currency or items.

chocolate, pets, pet tricks, and a few other random odds and ends.

So you can buy zen with real money, in game, to trade for astral shards, in game? How do you not see this is the exact same thing as buying in game currency?

The only difference between Zen and Diamonds is that Diamond usage will be limited to NWO. Zen you can use in any of PW games. Can you use Zen directly to get stuff in NWO or do you have to convert it first? I don't know.

[Postumus]

chocolate, pets, pet tricks, and a few other random odds and ends.

OH yeah. I completely forgot about the pet/pet tricks deal. I guess you could purchase essences too and convert them to shards for sale, but you'd experience horrible returns on your TPs.


I still think if turbine had made astral shards/diamonds purchased in the store unbound and sellable on the AH people would be screeching about it in the forums.


Well I'm glad some people were able to use the friend's keys to get into beta. So as long as you or your friend bought a founders pack you can play beta. Nice!

[Missing_Minds]

I still think if turbine had made astral shards/diamonds purchased in the store unbound and sellable on the AH people would be screeching about it in the forums.

Considering in Cryptic games, you can put grab bags, and other stuff in the AH for conversions... *shrugs* They made me numb to it and not give a darn.

[gphysalis]

I can't think of any reason to play a game based on 4E...

[ferrite]

Cryptic has repeatedly stated you don't monetize user generated content in anyway however what else have they said ....

While I've not played either game, the business plan sounds pretty ingenious to me, at least from a company standpoint.

-Customers pay us for a license to the initial program and game environment 'engine' we in turn licensed from someone else.
-Customers pay for the privelege to test our software for us, as beta testers.

and now..

-Customers pay us for the privelege of creating their own content they surrender ownership of, once they upload it to us.
-Customers pay us for 'digital assets' they create themselves.

Apparently there's a sucker born every minute. Or at any rate a few thousand of them. Personally I never beta test as I believe QA is the company's job and they should hire appropriate staff for it, since its a job. And as for paying THEM to create content for THEM and them KEEPING my content and re-selling it to make a profit and giving me zip as the original creator.. screw that.

And no fancy word like Foundry or UGC can hide the fact that you are, in fact, paying a company to take your ideas away from you. Would be downright hilarious if it weren't so sad..

As a paying customer, I expect to have my game tested, polished and content created for me thank you. Otherwise what am I paying for?