"Class/PrE Tier List"?

[Semual]

What's the general agreement of the community on the relative power of the different classes? I'm under the impression that Monks and Clerics are considered exceptionally strong, and Bards are generally weaker than average, but what of the others? Those of us who play PNP should be familiar with JaronK's Tier System (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0), is there something similar for DDO?

And... same, but for PrE's. I know some are considered nerf and others are really good, but is there a cohesive breakdown anywhere?

[HastyPudding]

It all comes down to builds and other things.

Class + Player Experience + Optimal Gear + Strong Build = great class

Making a list of all the different builds would be a very time-consuming experience, adding in the fact that rules and mechanics change much more frequently in DDO than in PnP. DDO also differs vastly from PnP. Take into account that list you put up, then look at the current classes in DDO. Some of them are spot on (like wizard and artificer being excellent, well-rounded classes) while others are dead wrong (monk being an exceptionally strong class in DDO, and comparatively weaker in PnP according to your list).

When it comes down to it, a good setup can change a bad class into a good one and a good class into a great one. A poor build can also change a great class into a bad class. There are just too many variables in DDO to warrant making this kind of a list. You could make a list of particular areas of expertise, such as physical damage, healing, crowd control, utility, etc, but probably not classes as a whole; that would just be a popularity contest.

[Semual]

It all comes down to builds and other things.

Class + Player Experience + Optimal Gear + Strong Build = great class

Making a list of all the different builds would be a very time-consuming experience, adding in the fact that rules and mechanics change much more frequently in DDO than in PnP. DDO also differs vastly from PnP. Take into account that list you put up, then look at the current classes in DDO. Some of them are spot on (like wizard and artificer being excellent, well-rounded classes) while others are dead wrong (monk being an exceptionally strong class in DDO, and comparatively weaker in PnP according to your list).

When it comes down to it, a good setup can change a bad class into a good one and a good class into a great one. A poor build can also change a great class into a bad class. There are just too many variables in DDO to warrant making this kind of a list. You could make a list of particular areas of expertise, such as physical damage, healing, crowd control, utility, etc, but probably not classes as a whole; that would just be a popularity contest.

Every single one of the complexities you mentioned in DDO also applies in PBP, yet people have put together fairly cohesive tier rankings. There's caveats of course - good skill can raise or lower a class around the chart - but it's a solid and reasonable starting point. I don't see why the same couldn't be done for DDO.

[Kinerd]

There are six main roles in DDO: healing, DPS, tank, CC, buffs, traps.

There are also four basic grouping styles: solo (or otherwise self-sufficient), run with hireling, group (up to 6 people), raid (up to 12 people).

Let's consider the paladin. The paladin has extremely strong self-healing for a character that's otherwise capable of good if not great DPS and tank. If you stress the first grouping style, that self-healing ability very strongly pushes you toward the paladin. If you stress the fourth, you're effectively always going to have a healer in a 12 person group, so your being able to heal yourself is irrelevant, so it makes more sense to go to great DPS and 0 self-healing.

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With all that said, here is how I would phrase my rankings:

1. Cleric or Favored Soul: very strong group healing with very little build or gear investment. Other classes can heal a group, but pure divines have the easiest time. This also makes it very easy to get in groups, especially compared to if you try to tell groups you're a group healer as an Artificer or Bard. It can very well be true, but most people aren't going to buy it.

2. Wizard or Sorcerer: effectively 0 group healing ability, but excellent self-healing ability, excellent CC, excellent DPS. Additionally wizards can make excellent trappers with a rogue splash, but in any event for a soloer the answer is pretty clearly arcanes.

3. Raw easy mode DPS: barbarian, fighter. Note that these builds do not represent the most DPS, but the easiest. Again, very little build and gear investment required to get into groups very easily.

The rest of the classes fall in the middle, somewhere between raw DPS, healing, soloing. The quintessence of this middle region is the rogue: capable of #1 DPS, capacity for every other role except tanking... but... everyone knows rogues are gimpy trappers and that's it, and it's really easy to end up building a rogue that is in fact a gimpy trapper and that's it. If you give 100 people a a horc barb and a human rogue, you're going to see dramatically more success with the former than the latter even though the rogue has by far the highest potential.

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PrE-wise, it's pretty straightforward, but again it's role-relevant. Knight of the Chalice is a strong DPS PrE for the paladin, but if your'e making a paladin why do you care about raw DPS? The PrE works well, but wouldn't it make more sense to shore up your tank ability (Defender of Siberys) or self-sufficiency (Hunter of the Dead)? But this begs the question, make more sense to whom?

[Grailhawk]

Using that guide ever thing in ddo is Tier3. This is do to the fact that the DM is a computer.

If what your looking to rank is a classes raw power then it follows much the same as the ranks on your guide.

Casters > Melee > Jack of all trades master of non.

[HastyPudding]

The only way to truly make this list would be to generalize about classes and builds, which is pigeonholing any class/build into a role, which tends to put people in DDO on the offensive and people begin spouting opinions. Seeing as there are so many roles and builds, the task becomes rather pointless.

Like Kinerd said, there are main categories classes can fit into. But, seeing as almost any class can fit into almost any role, and every build can apply to almost every class, you end up with hundreds of interconnecting possibilities. It just leads to one big mess, and thus you have to generalize; which brings us full circle back to what I said. Thus, you have to simplify the process, which leads to generalization, as well.

In short; it's pointless to do this, as D&D's class/race/build/role structure is too complex and it is constantly changing. I'm sure it could be done, but nobody is going to put in the man-hours to make this list.

[DarkForte]

Tier system in DnD was based on how many ways the character could solve an encounter, and how easy it is for the DM to see it coming. For example, while a warrior (npc class) only has the feats to learn but one trick, such as charging, for example, and if the DM were to put, say, a strong ogre raiding a town that he had to defeat, he'd fatally charge at it and fight it one-on one, while a wizard could Fly and enervate the ogre to death, gate in a solar to fight him, prepare a bomb of explosive runes, et al (and that's not even counting stuff like shadowcraft mage that makes an infinity of spells available to the caster without even needing preparation) and the DM would only see what was coming when he saw what spells the wiz prepared, and sometimes not even then!

This makes little sense in a DDO context.

Ranking PrCs makes little sense too, since you essentially give up nothing to pick up a PrE on ddo, and PrEs are coupled to class levels, so the -2/-1/+0/+1/+2 system used there breaks down. Also, considering that PrEs normally have a high correlation with a character's role (no straight dps fighter will take SD for example), there's only one PrE choice for a given build, making ranking those even sillier.

[Semual]

Hmm. I think I follow that people are saying now. Still....

I was recently advised on a different forum, in strong terms, against running a straight ranger. I asked if I should splash Fighter and they said:

Yes, you should splash 20 levels of fighter Any other melee class that isnt ranger (yes, even paladin is better at TWF then ranger atm with equivalent gear). Better mileage from your class features.

Ranger hasn't been well treated well in a long time in ddo

......Ranger, on the other hand, hasnt gotten anything new since they rewrote AA, besides a few spells they cant use from druid

1: There are more then 6 types of enemies you will be facing in epic.
1a: Shirardi is **** for making your one class feature slightly more flexible

2: Getting 3 of your feats for free doesnt matter too significantly when they are replaced by a worse feat tax

3: Critical modifier is expanded and enhanced by Kensai, while the capstone is the same as all the benefits of Tempest 3. Kensai also has a boost that gives +6 strength, as well as having pre-requisites that match the effectiveness of Favored Enemy at every level

4: Shirardi is absolute hell for anyone who does a tempest ranger.

5: No strong class features exist within ranger, except for their ability to prepare FoM and Camoflage

6: Evasion + a small boost in AC is not an Epic Cavalry Plate T3, Favored Enemy is not Kensai, Sneak attack (which can be landed 60% on Undead/Constructs in class), Frenzied Mighty Rage, or Exaulted Smite Evil 4. You dont have Improved Sunder or Devastating Critical.

Let me put it this way: If i say a class sucks, i have a good reason for believing it does.

So... does this person have a point? Someone once told me Thief-Acrobat Rogues were terrible, did they know what they were talking about? I've been advised that FvS is considerably more effective than Cleric outside of the healer role, is that reputable?

In pnp D&D, there are resources I can look up that walk through the prevailing balance issues, good and bad, in a cohesive way. Are there similar resources for DDO? Is there a place I can go to answer these questions without bugging you guys every time?

[Qezuzu]

Of all the classes I've played, rogues are easily one of the most versatile and powerful. But they're very reliant on gear and skill.

And yes, you can tank with a rogue. But at least one other person other than the rogue has to have dual improved deception weapons+improved deception item. You also need a hell of a lot of threat gear.

[shadereaper33]

Hmm. I think I follow that people are saying now. Still....

I was recently advised on a different forum, in strong terms, against running a straight ranger. I asked if I should splash Fighter and they said:






So... does this person have a point? Someone once told me Thief-Acrobat Rogues were terrible, did they know what they were talking about? I've been advised that FvS is considerably more effective than Cleric outside of the healer role, is that reputable?

In pnp D&D, there are resources I can look up that walk through the prevailing balance issues, good and bad, in a cohesive way. Are there similar resources for DDO? Is there a place I can go to answer these questions without bugging you guys every time?

Rangers don't bring the same amount of raw DPS to a party (unless manyshot is active), but what they do bring is a great deal of versatility and survivability. Those traits are especially useful if you run solo/short-man a lot. Currently, there is little to no reason to go full 20 ranger, and even going past 12 is somewhat questionable. A 12ranger/6fighter/2rogue type build, for example, is quite potent. Thief-Acrobats, when built properly, are just as good and viable as any other class archetype, when built properly. I have a 13rogue/6monk/1druid thief acrobat that is quite powerful, especially with a bit of gear investment. Finally, Clerics tend to be better at healing than Favored souls, with Favored souls being ahead in the DPS discussion. Frankly, DDO is far to fluid of an environment to have any sort of comprehensive list of strengths and weaknesses for classes, and it gets even more complicated when you start taking into account multi-class builds.

[Kinerd]

Regarding T-A, its problem is more the general problem THF has: it's not good at single-target DPS compared to TWF. This is especially true for rogues because they generate significant sneak attack damage, which gives even more disproportionate benefit to being TWF. The PrE is fine at what it does, which is enhance the DPS of a quarterstaff. It's the underlying mechanics that strongly discourage pursuing THF on a rogue at all.

You're going to get a lot of the quoted kind of comments about the classes/PrEs I mentioned as being in the gray areas. The ability to self-heal is either useless or indispensable depending on what you want from the class, and if it's useless then it follows that there's no reason to go ranger, but if it's indispensable it follows just as much that there's no reason to go fighter or barbarian.

[HastyPudding]

Regarding T-A, its problem is more the general problem THF has: it's not good at single-target DPS compared to TWF. This is especially true for rogues because they generate significant sneak attack damage, which gives even more disproportionate benefit to being TWF. The PrE is fine at what it does, which is enhance the DPS of a quarterstaff. It's the underlying mechanics that strongly discourage pursuing THF on a rogue at all.

You're going to get a lot of the quoted kind of comments about the classes/PrEs I mentioned as being in the gray areas. The ability to self-heal is either useless or indispensable depending on what you want from the class, and if it's useless then it follows that there's no reason to go ranger, but if it's indispensable it follows just as much that there's no reason to go fighter or barbarian.

Yeah, the problem with acrobat is, while they do have some excellent damage, they are going to deal sneak attack damage in an AoE around them due to the glancing blows of the quarterstaff. While the acrobat is supposed to be a very defensive rogue (fast reflexes, able to block with a staff, hard to pin down, decent AC, can't be tripped), it doesn't show due to the mechanics of DDO. A general rule of the rogue is you DO NOT want aggro. The issue with this is that, currently, the thief acrobat does not get much out of dexterity, and the THF series needing strength makes this a difficult balance of the two stats. We'll have to wait for the enhancement pass to come out for the acrobat to truly shine.

As to self healing, yes, it's a huge factor. You're always going to get arguments over self-sufficiency in multiclass builds.

[Inouk]

Yeah, the problem with acrobat is, while they do have some excellent damage, they are going to deal sneak attack damage in an AoE around them due to the glancing blows of the quarterstaff. While the acrobat is supposed to be a very defensive rogue (fast reflexes, able to block with a staff, hard to pin down, decent AC, can't be tripped), it doesn't show due to the mechanics of DDO. A general rule of the rogue is you DO NOT want aggro. The issue with this is that, currently, the thief acrobat does not get much out of dexterity, and the THF series needing strength makes this a difficult balance of the two stats. We'll have to wait for the enhancement pass to come out for the acrobat to truly shine.

As to self healing, yes, it's a huge factor. You're always going to get arguments over self-sufficiency in multiclass builds.

The other issue is that assassin just out shines them badly with what they can do. The acrobat gives a DPS boost. The assassin gives dead in 1 hit (sometimes 2 targets in 1 hit).

To the OP, the problem is largely that opinions vary and depend heavily on your skills both building and playing a character. The other problem is it varies from update to update. Yesterday pale masters were uber, today they suck due to massively inflated fortitude saves on newer high-end mobs. Yesterday evocation spec'd archmage sucked (badly!), today they are uber if (and only if) running Shiradi. Rangers... well you got one opinion on them, but now go check out some videos of a 10k stars archer (AKA moncher, monk/ranger mix) dominating epic elite content solo. Nobody can tell you that a class is great or awful, only that a particular build is great or awful at what you intend it to do. Your needs and wants as a player are key here. You can make a tank build as a 20 fighter, but without a ton of great gear, a perfect build setup, and good skills you'll find that he has poor DPS, self reliance, and solo ability. If you have all those you can solo EE. If you want more saves and self reliance you could instead build as a paladin and splash either ftr or monk, sacrificing a bit of DPS. Does this make a better tank or worse? I guess it depends on your wants and needs. Sure, there are a few PrE's and maybe classes that you could generalize and say they are or aren't good, but as a rule it's much much too hard to do that.

[Maelodic]

Everything else.
Deepwood sniper

/thread