Pug groups, they always amaze me in some way!

[Cyiwin]

I'll paraphrase something i said in another of these loot threads. It just seems to me the general thinking is that if anyone but me wants an item they are greedy. Only i 'need' the item. The others just want it. This is what these loot threads always seem to come down to from my view.

If someone could please explain the difference between needing and wanting in a videogame? What happens if you don't get an item you 'need'? Does your character auto-delete?

[Llewndyn]

Is this a joke? When I was on my first life (sorc) I was new to the game, but I didn't roll on stuff I didn't have a use for. I hardly have collected any gear for tr because it's not needed, I have died 1-4 times each life running around with garbage gear. I won't roll on stuff to maybe use it for a couple lives.

This is my basic gear set up each life (melee) For about 8 straight lives I didn't even wear any armor until 14. I don't even have tod sets to use because I lost my rahkir sash and never rolled on melee rings.

minos
+6 con neck with large slot
greater cunning trinket from CC (I use voice on melee lives)
blue dragonscale robe (black robe)
mantle
gfl belt
boots of the innocent
glacial assault set (gs gloves, leviks bracers which I pulled my first life for hamp and str, also had nothing better)
con opp goggles
random gen staff with impulse and radiance (sos from a 20th von 1 life, gs weps, random wraps)

No one really "needs" anything for tr, they want it, huge difference.

@ The part I bolded, you do realize you just said everyone is on the exact same skill level right? I know people who craft new gear every level for their tr and die 20 times each life. Gear will make the character better, but not the player. My tr buddy has probably worse gear than I do and he dies less than I do.

Let me start by saying that the beauty of DDO is everyone plays differently, but I hold fast to the idea that given untwinked 28 point builds there are GOING to be differences in death counts. Skill does have a lot to do with how you play, but (and maybe this is through laziness brought on by great gear) if you had to make a decent paladin or rogue with a 28 point build and no tomes already in your bank, could you play the exact same way you do today and be as effective? I may be wrong, but I say probably not.

As for rolling on stuff, you refuted your own claim just in different wording. No one NEEDS a torc. No one NEEDS a bauble. No one NEEDS anything, since if we all went to 28 point builds we would still be able to play the exact same way, right? I pulled a torc on my paladin life, and I took it. I knew I would need it. To wait until I was on a wizard life or a spellcasting life to pull it and pass it when I got it would have been silly. I know what I plan to do.

If you do NO farming or setting up of gear for lives you plan to do, that is your prerogative and I respect that. All I am asking you to do is respect others wish to pre-gear up for their lives. What if I don't WANT to run 60 ADQs on a wizard life to get a torc to use? What if I happen to be running it on a monk life and it drops and I KNOW I am going to run a wizard life? How do you know the inner machinations of that barb that rolled on vile blasphemy? You don't. You assumed that he was just being greedy because that's not what you would have done. Did that barb TR into another melee? If so, your whole original post might hold water, but even still, you didn't know that. BTW, I pulled a bauble on my barbarian life. I then ran a Paladin, a bard and a rogue. I was prepared when I ran a wizard.

As for your basic setup and you saying you don't wear any armor until 14, Whoop de doo Bazil... not everyone can do that. I get so tired of all the epeen and p***ing contests in this game sometimes... people have very low self esteem a lot of the time. That's why when someone asks what armor I am wearing or what kind of axe I am carrying I have to make a conscious effort to not simply squelch them out of hand. Inevitably, thinking they were genuinely interested, I will tell them, or show them what my crits are running (which gets asked a lot) and almost like they already had it typed up, they will link all of their armor, weapons, and all their **** and claim they were critting like that 10 levels ago, and I regret responding to them. I don't care about you. I don't care about your gear. I don't care what you think is needed this life or next life. If you put something up for roll and I win it, I would get a little annoyed that you did not pass me the item. I probably would have then left the Litany in the chest and dropped too.

tl;dr - You play how you want, let others do the same. Coming on the forums and whining because you screwed someone out of something and they had the gall to do the same to you is poor form.

PS - I'm interested. Your first life, on a sorc, you knew what you would have a use for out of hand? I mean even if you read the description of everything as it got linked (assuming everything is linked, usually people just say "scroll for roll" or whatever) if everyone waited around for you to see if you needed it before letting you decide to roll or not on it then you run with much more patient people than I do. I also remember thinking shatter was a useful suffix on weapons until my 2nd or third rolled character. You may just be way better than me and a lot of other people who are less prepared.

[fork_aka_spoon]

tl;dr - You play how you want, let others do the same. Coming on the forums and whining because you screwed someone out of something and they had the gall to do the same to you is poor form.

1: I didn't roll the item off so I didn't screw the guy over.
2: The guy wasn't screwed over.
3: I didn't get screwed over.
4: ???
5: profit

[Llewndyn]

1: I didn't roll the item off so I didn't screw the guy over.
2: The guy wasn't screwed over.
3: I didn't get screwed over.
4: ???
5: profit

1. Well I meant the guy who did it, didn't realize had to go into excruciating detail, but even then, YOU posted so I'm assuming YOU felt a little hosed to, maybe by proxy. I should have been more clear.

2. The guy won the roll. The guy did not get his item. He got screwed over.

3. Then why mention Litany at all?

4. This is oddly enticing to me.

5. Sounds to me like the only person who profited was the caster who got a free item even after losing a roll on it.

[Enoach]

..
2: The guy wasn't screwed over.
..

And this is where I disagree with you. Everything else posted about the Litany, how this person is a loot grabber or any other negatives serves only as fluff justification to why the person felt it necessary to "Change The Rules".

Regardless of the truth on this person that won the roll and still lost the item, the move made by the person dispensing their loot was wrong. I also consider selling/passing loot after establishing a roll off to be wrong as well. But maybe that is just the lawful side of me coming out...

[Karavek]

Op you only do yourself and your guild a disservice with such threads. As well as DDO in general. As I said previously in this thread, your stuck in a by gone era of DDO. ive been here off and on for years and can assure you that TRing and next life gearing up has been the norm now for at least 2 years. The last few changes like xp tomes have further accelerated TRing as well as a controversial discontent with epic content and power gaps.

From what I hear in this thread about the barb I imagine a young player who is quite an aggressive gamer. He is probably very capable as a player, and hungry to improve his character. The fact he even knows about TRing and talks about gearing for it tells me they are reading forums enough to make a logical choice to start on a less popular to play end game class to get that life out of the way while having the honest excuse of being new to the game to help cover his fumbles. The fact he didnt let you and your clique bully him says he isnt so invested in any game as emotionally as you are, he just wanted to make a point. He may soon leave DDO if you continue your griefing of him by trying to spread his name to cause a black listing. Such is always a bad thing as DDO needs these kinds of gamers more then hide bound vets stuck in old ways and who only respect their own kind of player while harassing the general population under the guise of it being the way.

[fork_aka_spoon]

Op you only do yourself and your guild a disservice with such threads. As well as DDO in general. As I said previously in this thread, your stuck in a by gone era of DDO. ive been here off and on for years and can assure you that TRing and next life gearing up has been the norm now for at least 2 years. The last few changes like xp tomes have further accelerated TRing as well as a controversial discontent with epic content and power gaps.

From what I hear in this thread about the barb I imagine a young player who is quite an aggressive gamer. He is probably very capable as a player, and hungry to improve his character. The fact he even knows about TRing and talks about gearing for it tells me they are reading forums enough to make a logical choice to start on a less popular to play end game class to get that life out of the way while having the honest excuse of being new to the game to help cover his fumbles. The fact he didnt let you and your clique bully him says he isnt so invested in any game as emotionally as you are, he just wanted to make a point. He may soon leave DDO if you continue your griefing of him by trying to spread his name to cause a black listing. Such is always a bad thing as DDO needs these kinds of gamers more then hide bound vets stuck in old ways and who only respect their own kind of player while harassing the general population under the guise of it being the way.

Hey, a reply I like. As I said, I've been out of the pug scene for awhile, but static groups that I run with there is never really rolling for future lives, and even the rare time I do pug still, I see frowning at people rolling for tr. I still believe blue bar items (vile is primarily a blue bar item, I don't know anyone who has used for the other stats) should be rolled off for casters, and same goes for whatever for whatever. The guy brought this on himself by acting like a child (yes I'll admit I'm doing the same in this thread, but I also don't care about being Blisted) by leaving litany in the chest to punish everyone who wanted to roll on it except my guildy if he so chose. Personally, I wouldn't want to run with someone who punishes the whole raid because of one person doing something they didn't like. This guy by the way is being squelched by a lot of people and kicked from groups for multiple reasons. Seems everyone I mention his name to replies with another story of why not to run with him. Coincidence? I doubt it.

[IBCrabin]

If said player has multiple toons of different classes on different lives, how long do you think he is going to stay on a caster life before tring again?


There are players that play less that could benefit from the item more than someone gearing for tr who plays quite a bit. This is the common courtesy for those that can hardly get a raid in and the purpose of the hosted raid by V.


Before any opinions should be given on the incident, people should know what the said person has done in the past to dictate those feedbacks from the op and from the raid host.

[Jasparion]

If said player has multiple toons of different classes on different lives, how long do you think he is going to stay on a caster life before tring again?

So time-in-use now is a requirement as well?

[Llewndyn]

So time-in-use now is a requirement as well?

Bottom line:

Barb rolled on something because he wasn't excluded and didn't know loot holder didn't mean him.
Loot holder gave loot to someone else because barb couldn't read his mind.
Barb gets angry and takes off, leaving item some people in the raid want.
Guy who did not win roll takes item given to him even though he did not win roll.
Guildy of Loot holder takes to forums to get barb blacklisted, then changes parameters over and over when he realizes his side has nothing to stand on.

I think this is the plot synopsis for 98.4% of Law and Order episodes.

[Jasparion]

I think this is the plot synopsis for 98.4% of Law and Order episodes.

I love that show, so it is no wonder I am enthralled with this thread !!

[Braegan]

My take on folks rolling on gear for possible TR's. 9/10 not needed.

You are going to roll on something that will benefit you modestly for a passing life and then sit in your bank or be vendored when done with that life versus someone who will use it for the bulk of the time on that character? I call weaksauce.

No, I won't cry about it. No, I wouldn't make a stink over it. But I am sure my future runs will exclude you. And really if it's just a passing life, there's no exclusively caster gear a passing life needs, nor is there any melee gear a passing life needs.

With UMD, a GS HP item, a GS weapon (of about any kind) and random loot your passing life will be fine. There is no need to be greedy and roll on loot you don't really need.

P.S. The melee was dumb leaving a litany, unless he had one already.

[Jasparion]

My take on folks rolling on gear for possible TR's. 9/10 not needed.

You are going to roll on something that will benefit you modestly for a passing life and then sit in your bank or be vendored when done with that life versus someone who will use it for the bulk of the time on that character? I call weaksauce.

If you are currently a Wizard, what proof is there that it isnt a passing life and will sit in your bank or be vendored when done?

[Gkar]

You are going to roll on something that will benefit you modestly for a passing life and then sit in your bank or be vendored when done with that life versus someone who will use it for the bulk of the time on that character? I call weaksauce.

That makes some sense, but who are you complaining about? The person who happened to be a caster in that moment of the raid and 5 levels later might never be a caster again, or the barb who might have a caster as their primary TR plan and use it for multiple lives including the final build?

The fact that they are a caster at that second doesn't mean they aren't the ones that will use it less before it gets vendored/banked forever.

TR changed everything.

[Llewndyn]

I promise, I'm done here:

Just a usual raiding with the Obsidian Marquis lfm for abbot, all goes smooth as usual, then we come to the loot which was fantastic! Quiver, litany, a seal, and a vile blasphemy which was put for roll by my guildy. 4 casters and a melee (first life at that) rolled on it. The melee won claiming he needs for "tr" which always is untrue. Anyways, the vile went to the high caster roll, then the same melee had the litany sitting in his name and instead of rolling it off he instead whined over voice about not getting vile, recalled out and dropped group leaving litany to rot in the chest.

I'm not posting this because I'm displeased, just have 0 respect for people who roll on things they don't need or "ITS FOR TR."

Meow. Also awesome loot, only had 9 people in group!

Nowhere does it say fighter, barb, monk, whatever. I thought later in the thread (not sifting through it) someone said it was a barb; my apologies, I made an ASSUMPTION which turned out to be WRONG.

PM me the name of the fighter, let's see what his current life is and we can settle this whole deal.

I don't care if you other 4 "raider" friends agree with you; that doesn't make what you say right. I also like how you take the 4 people who agree with you over the 4 and a half pages of people, even friends of yours from some of the more tame ones, as overwhelming evidence you did the right thing.

The ONLY thing I am trying to get you to see is this: Making assumptions, no matter how valid in your limited experience (and I say limited not in the derogatory sense, but more as in there are a LOT of people saying you or your buddy were in the wrong), got you bit in the butt this time. People construe situations differently. I understand what you are saying, that melees should not roll on blue bar items as they would be better served going to casters. Since the melee in question is not here to defend himself, and none of the others in the raid directly involved have spoken up, we have to make the following assumptions:

1. Since it is a level 17 raid, and you probably did it on elite since no one on the forums has EVER done anything on normal, we must assume everyone in the run was of a higher level and were fairly well off gear wise.

2. Since the caster in question is of a higher level, we can safely assume he will be TRing soon or going into Epic destinies, and thus would probably not use the Vile Blasphemy himself for very long. If he was a level 14 caster in a level 19 quest, then give me the melee's name and I will set him straight, because that's friggin amazing. We don't know, though, so are left to assume as such.

3. We are left to also assume that you KNOW the melee's intentions, that he intends to never roll a caster, that his main TR character is ALWAYS going to be a melee, and we assume that because you allude to that assumption a few times and a couple of your supporters back this claim up. When that falls flat, you say that a lot of people have squelched said melee, as if that is evidence of the general forum population being wrong.

So in essence it NOW boils down to this: the item was given to a caster who had probably already outlevelled it, or soon would, and who COULD be just running a caster on his road to completionist and plans on running barbarians for the rest of his DDO career. You/ your guildy don't know. The melee in question could have joined that raid for the SPECIFIC purpose of getting that item (as I can attest to, I did most of my farming for a Stormreaver's napkin on my paladin life), won the item he may or may not have been farming for, only to have some *expletive deleted* pass it because that person he has run ONE quest with knows whats best for him. When that happened, the melee decided what was best for the rest of the group would be to let them look at the Litany while he took off, and did so. There was wrong on both sides. I will admit even given the limited information given I am more apt to side with the melee as he did what I would have done, wrong or not, and from the majority of responses, a lot of responders, most of them just as well respected as your "raider" friends, agree. It's nothing against you, personally, and I have been guilty of being a little galvanizing here, but I stand firm on my side of the discussion here: I think your guildy did the wrong thing in this instance.

We all whine about your loot is your loot, and it's real easy to hit the forums and mindlessly spout that off, but like free speech in the American Constitution, though it IS your loot, there are still consequences if this ideal is mismanaged as perceived by others. In this instance, if you put something up for roll and do NOT say "hey, melee, don't roll because you won't get it" and he DID roll and win and you gave the item to the caster, I would be 110% on your side and would troll that guy just for chuckles and grins. This didn't happen though, and as the story sits I feel I have made a valid argument that the melee, while maybe a little childish in his response, was wronged.

Thanks.

[Eilierie]

I just wanted to comment and get some feedback on something.

Maybe its because I PUG 90% of the time ?

I don't know but I've been told that I play my 28 Sorc better than most 34 point builds....

I hear a lot in the forums how EE is too easy and how TR gear is not needed...

well I must really in actuality suck really bad at playing this game. No I don't NEED anything but I sure as **** WANT it - so that makes me somehow greedy ?

I go to work every day to earn money.... I don't NEED to have anything other than generic brand white rice in my cupboard to survive but I sure as heck WANT to survive on more than just that

Seriously ? Where is the line drawn ?

I think its pretty obvious that everyone is entitled to draw their lines wherever they dang well please but I sure as **** don't understand how they think they have the right to IMPOSE their lines onto someone else AND then to have the nerve to label someone who doesn't agree with them

BOTTOM LINE - the loot was put up for roll without restriction - if you want to restrict who rolls, then you must say so. Your failure to communicate properly where exactly you draw the line is just that YOUR FAILURE. The guy in question may very well be a total jerk but that has nothing to do with your lack of communication.

[Masadique]

I promise, I'm done here:

I don't care if you other 4 "raider" friends agree with you; that doesn't make what you say right. I also like how you take the 4 people who agree with you over the 4 and a half pages of people, even friends of yours from some of the more tame ones, as overwhelming evidence you did the right thing.

Thanks.

Whoa, whoa whoa whoa! Don't lump anyone in as a friend of Fork. He just happened to be in our raid with his guildy, the person who rolled off the item. It's not that we like Fork, we just hate the guy who, in this case, left the Litany in a chest when the other ~5 people who didn't have one already would've loved it.

As an update, I ran another Abbot about a week after this incident, and the Lit leaver was in said group. He got so angry that I'd joined the group that he ended up wiping the raid, and people kicked by the leader for being a cry baby. Yes, I smiled a lot after this happened.

Just saying, it's not Fork who has a problem with this guy, it's people in general. Hell his guild leader, Mortal who I've known for a long time, assumed that was who I was asking about before I even mentioned a name. He laughed it off as if this was a normal question he gets. For the record, I don't think this reflects of Mort or his guild at all poorly.

V

[Llewndyn]

Whoa, whoa whoa whoa! Don't lump anyone in as a friend of Fork. He just happened to be in our raid with his guildy, the person who rolled off the item. It's not that we like Fork, we just hate the guy who, in this case, left the Litany in a chest when the other ~5 people who didn't have one already would've loved it.

As an update, I ran another Abbot about a week after this incident, and the Lit leaver was in said group. He got so angry that I'd joined the group that he ended up wiping the raid, and people kicked by the leader for being a cry baby. Yes, I smiled a lot after this happened.

Just saying, it's not Fork who has a problem with this guy, it's people in general. Hell his guild leader, Mortal who I've known for a long time, assumed that was who I was asking about before I even mentioned a name. He laughed it off as if this was a normal question he gets. For the record, I don't think this reflects of Mort or his guild at all poorly.

V

If he did that, he is a tool. When he left the Litany in the chest in Fork's group, he was a tool. I'm not refuting that, even while saying I would do the same thing. The issue I have is Fork's guildy screwed him over and then got butthurt when he responded to getting screwed over by....screwing people over.

If they KNEW this guy was a tool, and let him in anyway and let him roll on an unrestricted item then passed it, then they were trolling and were in the wrong.

If they did NOT know this guy was a tool, let him roll on the item then passed it because they arbitrarily assume they know what he does and does not need or should have a valid reason to roll on, they were in the wrong.

Saying other people don't like him is NO reason to perpetuate him being a d-bag by screwing him over. All that does is reinforce his idea that everyone is mean to him and keeps him griefing people in an attempt to get back at everyone. I don't know this will help but has anyone tried NOT trolling/ griefing this guy to see how he reacts? In one of my earlier posts I said because a few annoying people feel the need to rub their epeen all over my leg by asking what gear I have then linking everything in their inventory. Now even if someone is legitimately interested I have to consciously try to respond without being a jerk. It's wrong. I am trying to get Fork to see this same behavior is wrong in this case, too. If everyone treats this guy or any person like carp because "he's a jerk", then you will be proven right every time.

I have thought about this post from every angle I can, and in every instance Fork's guildy was wrong. I can't think of ONE instance where what happened would not have made me annoyed too. That's all I'm saying...

And for the record I will stop promising not to respond, since I am 0/1235432155 on that

[Stormraiser]

Sigh..
Most ppl on this thread keep defending the melee guy who rolled for a caster item but nobody considers the casters who actually NEEDED that. Lets face it a caster can use it seconds after he gets it while some1 else (on this occasion some melee) MAY use it in the future if and when they TR...well no, just no! Ppl with immediate use should get btC loot first and possible TRs only if the above mentioned ppl dont want that loot...because yea u TRs may want to farm stuff now so u dont have to farm it later but hey some1 else is farming it NOW for his CURRENT life...

I mean seriously...ur missing the point here..they question isnt why he wasnt allowed to get vile but why he even rolled for it in the first place...

Reminds me of a story..we were running heroic elite dq2 (many updates ago) and staff of arcane power drops..now im on my sorcerer and i already have seal/shard/scroll of it...i roll along with others and loose...i say in the pchat that i can make it epic right now and i only miss the base, i even asked the guy who won if he is even close to make it epic...guess what every1 ignored me,looted and left. Talking about greed vs need...

You know what I really dislike? When someone joins a quest or raid and says something like :

Looking for Madstone boots, Looking for litany - So is everyone else
I only need one more FRD to get red scale armor - Does that make you more important then someone just starting out who need 17 more?
I only need this item, I have the scroll and seal or I'm just waiting for item X to finish my build - So why do you get priority over someone else?
This is my 23rd run, and I still haven't pulled item X - Well, some other people in the party might be on their 46th run, they just choose not to whine about it.

To me, you don't have to announce over chat why you need an item. Rolling for it already expresses that desire without the need to "haggle" or convince others for it.
Instant gratification isn't an excuse why you deserve to get an item over someone else, nor can you measure the utility a player gains by using a torc now, vs someone saving a torc for their final life, or even just keeping it as a proud accomplishment.

"I mean seriously...ur missing the point here..they question isnt why he wasnt allowed to get vile but why he even rolled for it in the first place..." - Because he wanted to, and this is a game to have fun? is a good answer to me.

Stormraiser

[Stormraiser]

So time-in-use now is a requirement as well?

Exactly, any time one puts their own view of what makes a loot roll valid is when others will get offended. You could argue many sides of the same story.

Someone TRing into a caster will get more use out of a torc then someone running endgame EE. Right or wrong?
Someone Tring into their final life as a ranged dps will get more use out of a Pineon then someone who plans 15 more TR lives. Right or wrong?
Does a Juggernaut build have more use to a Pineon then an Arcane Archer? Right or wrong?
Does someone with very little good gear have more use out of a powerful item, or the well geared character who needs the item to "finish" their build? Right or wrong?
Does a wizard icon need a SoS, oh you didn't you see that he was a hybrid melee build?

The best way is not to quantify it and just let everyone roll on what they want.

Stormraiser