Neverwinter Recon

[Uska]

personally I am actually becoming more hopeful the more I see about NWO. You see I have played alot of cryptics early works, and can agree with the comment they have had varied success in the industry. They built the foundation for city of heroes which went on to become impo the best MMO ever made for a casual pug experience where being able to easily get along with and interact with others from around the world rarely proved the head ache we often get here in DDO.

They went on to build champions, which holds the title of the first true free form character building MMO, imo wrongfully as DDO thanks to multi classing and the D20 system allows for incredibly flexible characters, which sadly only breeds conflict with the team specialists and creates the heated debates of should clerics be healers, and should everyone be BYOH when its always an option one can choose to build in with minimal impact on an end game build. The one advantage to a game with hard definitions for classes and roles is avoiding all that social grief.

STO though some claim is P2W, from my chats with friends who have given it a chance, even if they didnt stick with it, it was more due to cryptic breaking more often then fixing popular features like the foundry system. Hopefully the price they payed with its beta debut on STO will lead to a better experience for those on NWO.

The fact is the classes do indeed look fun to play, and each with just enough flavor and personal style to generate the altaholic stable of characters I and many others on CoH enjoyed. Likewise the classes all seem capable of being solo centric through build choices, letting them be taken abit out of the box for those needing to fit a more personal play style.

The fact things like mounts and useful companions exist for all players will be a big plus as its easy income through a e store, and further customization in how one appears and can play.

My own biggest pondering is the RP aspect of the game, COH was lore rich and easy to become a part of the world and had strong social hubs like pocket D. Champions has several clubs to socialize in as well.

Im guessing the moonstone lounge and its vip area are meant to be that for NWO and if so is a good sign, as its true most anti RP players in ftp games are total ftp. Those who immerse themselves in their characters and the world they play in usually are happy to invest. So I hope alot of things of interest to RPers like emotes and appearance customization are not neglected. Also a character bio page which gets largely ignored in DDO was used often in CoH and CO and would be nice to see return in NWO.

Overall although I dont know if it will be a direct death blow to DDO, I do see alot of reasons to give NWO a chance and more of my money then turbine has seen since MOTU got my 80+

Sorry SWG had free form character building long before anyone else well it did before nge and champs bit big time and followed the pnp game it was based on absolutely not! I am the opposite of you the more I hear the less I like when I hear founder who spent 200 bucks wants to never play again I take that as a very very bad sign

[Horrorscope]

Sorry SWG had free form character building long before anyone else well it did before nge and champs bit big time and followed the pnp game it was based on absolutely not! I am the opposite of you the more I hear the less I like when I hear founder who spent 200 bucks wants to never play again I take that as a very very bad sign

Did they spend $200 or $60, both are Founders and get you in the game. And to some $200 is like $2's, depends on how deep their pockets are. Plus no matter what, it's all opinion.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

There's a whole lot of guesswork and hearsay at play in this thread.

Here's my summary:

Graphics and storyline/lore go to Neverwinter. There is no competition.

Combat is a tossup. Both are fun. DDO gets a nod here in its current state. However, many will find Neverwinter's combat mechanism extremely fun. D&D purists will find both DDO (especially with recent changes to-hit and ac changes) and Neverwinter not like "the old days".

Character creation/development edges to DDO, however, the fact that epic destinies trivialize much of what you did to level 20 ... the end result does not feel all that different.

Engine. Big advantage to Neverwinter. Offers Cryptic and users almost unlimited potential to add new content in the future.

The last three details are very important, and Turbine has not helped itself in 2012 in my opinion. I've seen enough to love both games, but much of the same reasons.

At this point, the character creation at this point ensures I'll always find DDO as my favorite of the two but its by a very very small margin, because Neverwinter comes close enough to the combat bar for me, and the engine makes DDO feel like an aging game for the first time in my 6+ years playing. And it just hit beta.

[Jaid314]

Character creation/development edges to DDO, however, the fact that epic destinies trivialize much of what you did to level 20 ... the end result does not feel all that different.

yes, i'm sure the massive number of people with draconic incarnation barbarians would agree completely with you on how unimportant what they did from 1-20 was... i'm sure energy burst is totally working for them.

there is a fair amount of options in terms of ways to be effective in epic destinies depending on where your heroic levels put you.

but it's complete and utter nonsense to think that choices from 1-20 are unimportant and have no effect.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

yes, i'm sure the massive number of people with draconic incarnation barbarians would agree completely with you on how unimportant what they did from 1-20 was... i'm sure energy burst is totally working for them.

there is a fair amount of options in terms of ways to be effective in epic destinies depending on where your heroic levels put you.

but it's complete and utter nonsense to think that choices from 1-20 are unimportant and have no effect.

I am not arguing that choices made at levels 1-20 have no effect, it is my opinion they simply have less effect on many toons. Epic destinies have without question trivialized/overshadowed much of what we now know are heroic levels. Do you think it really matters if you take 16 vs 18 str at creation? There still PLENTY of variety left in DDO character creation, but beginning stats mean less and less nowadays, especially when you can tack on +5 in the blink of an eye (this is why Turbine's always nerfing buffs, gear, difficulty etc). Gear means less and less now, with almost freebie commendation loot in Estar granting better stats than most gear in game ever did. With all thats broken in DDO right now, in addition to dummying down the game (which will happen again when the new enhancement ui debuts), with the changing of to-hit/ac, the game continues to is run, not walk away from D&D 3.5 rules. These elements make DDO more vulnerable to today's MMO challengers, including (and especially) Neverwinter. (Neverwinter's weakness is in its lack of individuality/customization of meaningful stats at creation/leveling, the addition of EDs actually lessen the importance of stats and put DDO on a much more level playing field with Neverwinter in my opinion.)

Don't get me wrong, I still find DDO tons of fun, the EDs are fun as is the easy to get loots. DDO's big edge is that you can still create a toon that feels like YOUR toon. I have had little trouble taking advantage of the ED choices personally, and helping others build engaging toons. DDO still = my favorite game.

But after playing a D&D online game with a much newer engine with far less lag (including spells and animation effects that would be impossible in DDO without game breaking lag), with much more lore that is 100% accurate and actually tells a story, with UGC indoor and outdoor instanced questing popping up on a regular basis (due to users who want to share their stories in a very old school pnp way), with combat that is a ton of fun (albeit still a bit clunky due to recent addition of rooting which has to go bye bye), I have no doubt that Neverwinter will arise at launch (as opposed to its current alpha state) as a serious competitor to DDO, and a great alternative (potentially) to some who ignore that ****-talking and actually try the game for themselves.

In no way is it dooom for DDO, our favorite game will be around for many years to come, but Neverwinter will make a major, major dent. Hopefully, the new competition will help the developers of both games create better content down the road, and make both playerbases welcome the good both games have done for each other!

[Missing_Minds]

I am not arguing that choices made at levels 1-20 have no effect, it is my opinion they simply have less effect on many toons.

While it could, in actual practice, you will find that people choose EDs that made what they did in the first 20 levels even stronger.
Not make them all wacked out in the water like you were describing. The only time a Barb may really be in Draconic is when they are working up fate points. Beyond that, seriously... "Guys, this one is hard. Get in your Primary destinies please." I've lost track how often I've heard that.

And what trivializes quests even more is not the EDs, but meta-knowledge of the quests.

Seriously, to say that the ED trivializes the heroic choices with examples of barbarians staying in draconic works only in "what if" theories.

And yes, the to-hit/AC race is saddening, but what did you and they expect in a Monty Haul video game where there is no active DM to help keep things in check? All that happened is it turned it more MMO ish without the standard MMO lvl issues of "the mob is too high. you are GOING to DIE." even if you do use really good tactics.

And sure, there is a lot of hersay. I'm one of them, I've never denyed that. But my own statements are backed up by first hand experience with Cryptic from beta of CO to a few months after they were bought by PW. Add to that videos posted and how developers answered... Hate to say it but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be right about the game. The only way I will know, myself, for fact, if I was right or not is to actually play it. Something I have no intention of doing.

But after playing a D&D online game with a much newer engine with far less lag (including spells and animation effects that would be impossible in DDO without game breaking lag), with much more lore that is 100% accurate and actually tells a story,

*busts out laughing* Wait till you start dealing with actual loads.
As for story... talk about red herrings. All that statement is, is a shout out to the fans of FR while claiming (wrongfully) that there is no story in DDO.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

snip

The DDO story sucks Missing. Sorry man. How many people that play this game do you actually think even realize there IS a backstory (as capricious as it is)? In Neverwinter, there is a strong story that flows with the quest lines, if you care to follow along. In DDO, the little story snippets stay in the quest. In Neverwinter, the story is not only more detailed and flows better, its in your journal that you can read anytime... long after you leave the quest. There is no competition, lore will go to Neverwinter Missing, I'm sorry.

As for your ED points, sure, I agree with most of them. There are more than one way to look at their benefits. They breathed life into many toons that were shelved or not finely tuned. I also think there were negatives that arose (lets not bring up the ritual to get thru destinies you have no interest in, to get to the destinies you do), and one of them is that EDs feel like powers in 4e in the way implemented by Cryptic. That's what puts them more on a level playing field than was necessary. (BTW the barbarian ED comment wasnt mine, it was Jaid's, it really doesn't have much to do with similarities between DDO and Neverwinter I was making...)

As for your hearsay, it is what it is. There's no right and wrong here, its all personal taste. I've played them both. DDO is my game. But its not my only one.

What we are doing in our guild now, is gauging interest in both DDO and NWO. There's clearly a demand for both games. Furthermore, there is no bickering over which game is "better". We are allowing everyone to draw their own conclusions. We've had some interested in Neverwinter fall in love with DDO (one is currently posting in this very thread) and we have some digging Neverwinter. The end result for our guild is a very bright one. Which game they choose to play, one or the other, or both, is completely up to them.

[Missing_Minds]

How many people that play this game do you actually think even realize there IS a backstory (as capricious as it is)?

The same will be said of NWO as it will be comprised of gamers, not just Realm fans.

Well I take that back. If they streamline it such that you must do A, must do B, must do C as you grow in character levels, eventually the players will be able to barf out from being absolutely nauseated of the same thing over and over and over. Ye old issue of any standard MMO. And I have no idea how they are handling that aspect of the game.

Of course the turn about of this is also you are stating that the lore in NWO is going to be force fed down the players throats with no option of ignoring it or not? Not everyone plays a game for "lore" after all.

[Uska]

Did they spend $200 or $60, both are Founders and get you in the game. And to some $200 is like $2's, depends on how deep their pockets are. Plus no matter what, it's all opinion.

I wasnt talking about anything but the part about free form character building and the collectors editon for SWG was like 60 bucks

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Of course the turn about of this is also you are stating that the lore in NWO is going to be force fed down the players throats with no option of ignoring it or not? Not everyone plays a game for "lore" after all.

I didn't state that Missing. I said there is a strong story that flows with the quest lines, if you care to follow along. You can stop and read every lore item you find (not bad for solo play and parties that find value in such play.), read your journal later - after the quest, or completely ignore it. In UGC, the lore items can be key, and in fact some user designed quests may require you to read NPC chat or lore items in order to finish a quest objective. I've found this brings an old D&D rpg or pnp feel, in a very cool way that doesn't detract from the combat at hand but adds "color" to it. You can seek out or ignore such authors. Its really up to the player.

[dunklezhan]

As for story... talk about red herrings. All that statement is, is a shout out to the fans of FR while claiming (wrongfully) that there is no story in DDO.

It is very rare that I agree with LeslieWest, Missing, but on this he's got you. At least as far as this: there is a detailed, rich story in DDO. However, it is poorly delivered and I would guess that a tiny minority of people could tell you anything about the 'main' plot except "it's got something to do with dragons and giants and that there seems to be a separate plot about Devils or something?"

Yet, several years later, I can still tell you all about certain plot lines in WoW. WoW for goodness sake!

When your players don't know your story, your story does not exist.

I'm looking forward to NW in as much as I'm desperate to get some RP back in my life and it simply doesn't exist in any meaningful way in DDO. There are no mechanisms which really support it, even in terms of costume customisation (which I never really went for anyway, my point is that many RPers really do care about this, so if it's missing or not extensive, you put chunks of that community off), and the story isn't in your face enough to want to be 'part' of it beyond getting ma lewts and XP. There are tiny tiny pockets of RP hidden away in some guilds on some servers and that's it. Yet DDO is based on the original RPG! I've simply never been able to fathom that and it was a major disappointment to me when I started playing. I would've quit about 6 months in but I found a decent guild who made the lack of RP bearable for me, even though they don't RP themselves.

Also I have to tell you - TERA online offers more RP potential than DDO, and it's more grindy than WoW! I've played Tera on and off for the last few weeks and I understand more about the plot there than here!

NW, with the foundry system and a number of other things I'm seeing, seems to be offering a lot more in the way of immersion. On that basis alone I'm looking forward to it.

Of course, if the gameplay choices are limited or boring then that will still kill the game for me.

I doubt I'll make NW my main game. But I can certainly see me and a few guildies hopping over there, creating our own guild and using it for a distraction. And if I find an RP group over there you might never see me back here.


EDIT: I need to say this: recent updates and releases have much improved the story line visibility in DDO. I actually do understand the plot of the expansion. This is probably helped by the fact that there are lots of audio clips to go with it, so you don't have to try to speed read NPC text while in combat, or the quest text when everyone else is already in and underway. If they went back and did a pass on gianthold, tempest spine, waterworks, STK etc and brought in some of the techniques they've done for Eveningstar, I think things would be much, much improved.


EDIT EDIT: you could be forgiven for reading the above and thinking I'm not happy with DDO. I am. It's the best MMO I've ever played, gameplay/character generation wise. I just think it needs a stronger presentation of the story and more RP-friendly features (which I've provided examples of by way of many many suggestion threads over the years, I'm not repeating it all again here). I've also been playing this now for 3.5 years (+/- a couple of months) which is about as long as I played WoW for. Difference is here that I'm starting to keep my eye out for new games as DDO is starting to hit the end of it's shelf life for me. Whereas with WoW for the last six months I was playing out of habit, I wasn't having any fun at all apart from the RP. That is not the case in DDO. I started a new 1st life toon just yesterday and was still having a blast running through Korthos for the nth time, as I decided to do it on elite right out the gate, without any twinking whatsoever on a class I've never played before and don't understand very well (FVS). Just ran with what I looted or was rewarded. Assumed that I'd be fine with all my experience, forgot the last few times i hit korthos I'd twinked myself silly, and as a result got my ass handed to me at least twice before I left the island. I still haven't got a clue what I'm going to do with this supposed 'evoker' FvS.... but loads of fun, still


EDIT EDIT EDIT: also, while I said I'm looking forward to NW to get some RP back in my life, I forgot to say how sad that makes me. Eberron is a MUCH more interesting world than Faerun. I'd much rather be on the talenta plains by a fireside with my guildies, having an impromptu party surrounded by a bunch of nutty dinosaur riding halflings, or up in the demon wastes hiding in a crevasse while we wait for a raid than at an inn on the Sword Coast. I would SO rather DDO expanded into Khorvaire than that it had ever set foot in Faerun, I just can't put it into words. I'm not angry or raging about that, it just makes me sad.

[ddonoobgamer]

However, it is poorly delivered and I would guess that a tiny minority of people could tell you anything about the 'main' plot except "it's got something to do with dragons and giants and that there seems to be a separate plot about Devils or something?"

As someone who has no previous D&D background, I didn't even know there was a main plot in the game. I always thought the game was a collection of separate packs each with their own individual plots. The only pack who's plot I would describe as something to do with dragons and giants is Gianthold.

I don't have any plans to leave DDO in the foreseeable future, but I intend to try out Neverwinter Online when it comes out. They just started their first Beta weekend right now and here is an early review from someone who actually tried it out :
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/sho...reenshot-Heavy

I'm pretty interested in the Foundry myself. Not only for playing other people's creations, but also in getting to make my own creations as well. (Speaking not as a PnP type, but just as a gamer.)

[Kawai]

...As someone who has no previous D&D background, I didn't even know there was a main plot in the game. I always thought the game was a collection of separate packs each with their own individual plots. The only pack who's plot I would describe as something to do with dragons and giants is Gianthold...

agree in full.

to me, the entire story in ddo is a bunch of annoying txt boxes that i have to clicky through to accept a quest. absolutely nothing more than that.

Estar at least has some vocal narration. but i still haven't been interested enough to absorb anything. Usually too busy trying to steer through the paragraph of FONT that is embedded the middle of the screen now. (why cant we turn that off?)

[die]

I for one have been waiting for nwo for along time.

I have been watching alot of live steaming of the beta game play and i love alot of what i see. what is killing me about DDO now is i cant stand running the quests any more .

im in GH now on one of my many TR's and i just log in and look at what i need too do and just log off i cant stand this same old **** any more tr smae quest over and over frankly im starting too question my sanity really who plays the same **** year after year i think im freakin crazy . So come on Never winter!!

LMAO and not too mentionr waiting for a new update which i still love. It's freakin GH re-hash OH &^^%$. really?i know we have a new raid. but yea i think my time is done here weather they're is a nwo or not palying the same &^%^ over and 0ver.

[Missing_Minds]

When your players don't know your story, your story does not exist.

I do not disagree with that. I know that puts it out of order to your post, but I wanted that stated up front.

TL;DR version: how does NWO present story/lore information such that it stays with a lazy player who doesn't give a care about reading anything, just wants loot and xp, and normally has their own music blaring drowning out all other sounds?

It is very rare that I agree with LeslieWest, Missing, but on this he's got you. At least as far as this: there is a detailed, rich story in DDO. However, it is poorly delivered and I would guess that a tiny minority of people could tell you anything about the 'main' plot except "it's got something to do with dragons and giants and that there seems to be a separate plot about Devils or something?"

Lore to me is this history, in this case, the history of FR. Video gamers aren't going to know it nor give a darn about it. Does FR have a larger past to pull from than EB? Without a doubt, yes.

But the continued hype about lore this and lore that. I can only convert that into questing in the game and try to figure out what the heck he's actually meaning. If they have everything done up so it is all audio or something of that matter that you are FORCED to read or listen, then your players are being force fed the "lore". Unlike in DDO you can just go *click, click click, click, click...* "Ok, guys. What does the wiki say to do now?" Which they could have gotten if they actually bothered to read. So how does NWO present the material different such that the players don't have the option that they must pay attention?

He also went on about UGC (I'm assuming that stands for User Generated Content, because he never defines it, and I deal with too **** many acronyms at work go really want to think through what someone is meaning in depth.) and how they have... Correction. Could have "lore items". To me all that means is "quest item to be able to complete an objective." Because I sure a heck do not believe for an instant that we, players, will ever be given the ability to create weapons/gear using Foundry to be able to actually put in Lore items. As a Lore Item to me would be something a character could actually keep and use, such as a Blackstaff, Ring of Winter, Twinkle, etc. Now I'll grant you, there could be other lesser Lore items, such as religious masks or the like.

User generated content will help fight against wiki "click and skip" use all save for the most solid/fun quests out there because most people are goign to be too darn lazy to do one up for every quest. But I bet there will be some done up for any official content created.

Also a "lore journal" just what is it? If i want lore, I have a whole freaking library down stares to read from. It sounds more like an "quest completion, and things learned from it." log. I'm hesitant to call it an achievement given how CO listed those off.
Or did NWO just call everything "lore" and Les has just been using the terms NWO uses rather than generic descriptions to explain it better to those not playing beta?

[Postumus]

It is very rare that I agree with LeslieWest, Missing, but on this he's got you. At least as far as this: there is a detailed, rich story in DDO. However, it is poorly delivered and I would guess that a tiny minority of people could tell you anything about the 'main' plot except "it's got something to do with dragons and giants and that there seems to be a separate plot about Devils or something?"

It took me about a year before I put together the main elements of the various plot lines. Sometimes it was an 'aha!' moment when I actually sat and watched the play in House P. Other times it was a 'now that's odd... HEYYY!' moment when I realized an NPC elf named Velah was speaking to someone about the House K vault of night.


Players aren't hit over the head with the story lines, nor spoon fed them, so unless one actually reads the quest text, pays attention to a lot of the NPC flavor text in quests, watches seemingly random events (like the play in House P), eaves drops on NPCs speaking 'throw away' lines to each other in public places and in quests, and actually recognizes that Velah and other major NPCs are running around all over the game, the average player will miss a great deal of the story.


Since the quest chains can be done in any order, new players are going to have even more difficulty identifying and connecting the threads that connect or carry through the various quest chains and keep popping up as references in side quests. Players don't see the forest because they are too focused on facerolling the trees.


I think TURBINE got better at displaying the narrative with the talking messages in Eveningstar, and I think some of the newer quests like Chronoscope and the Droam chains have enough DM narration and in game acting to give players a good idea of what is actually happening.


A LORE Journal (for lack of a better term) might be a good way to consolidate the various pieces of the puzzle for players to review as they experience key plot points they would have missed if their Lore Journal didn't update. It could work similarly to the MM and you might get small bonus xps or whatever by collecting all of them to complete the story within your journal.

[Missing_Minds]

Different question about NWO. CO has a mentoring system so that high level can play with low level and vice versa all over the place.

This is something DDO has been very dumb about not implementing. Did they stick in something like that into NWO or is it too early to tell? (I honestly hope they stick in something.)

And from what I read, it sounded like they put in a respecing system in early. About f'ing time. Cryptic really screwed the pooch on that in CO when it got released. It was one of the few things that the head actually listened to players about. They weren't going to have one for a while but too many complaints so they put one in. Granted it stunk but they had one eventually after launch.

[Postumus]

Lore to me is this history, in this case, the history of FR. Video gamers aren't going to know it nor give a darn about it. Does FR have a larger past to pull from than EB? Without a doubt, yes.

But the continued hype about lore this and lore that. I can only convert that into questing in the game and try to figure out what the heck he's actually meaning. If they have everything done up so it is all audio or something of that matter that you are FORCED to read or listen, then your players are being force fed the "lore". Unlike in DDO you can just go *click, click click, click, click...* "Ok, guys. What does the wiki say to do now?" Which they could have gotten if they actually bothered to read. So how does NWO present the material different such that the players don't have the option that they must pay attention?

He also went on about UGC (I'm assuming that stands for User Generated Content, because he never defines it, and I deal with too **** many acronyms at work go really want to think through what someone is meaning in depth.) and how they have... Correction. Could have "lore items".

I'll have to wait to play the beta -er 'finished' neverwinter online when it comes out to see how different their delivery of the narrative is. I really have a really hard time believing user generated content will tie in consistently (or at all) to the official lore cryptic will be putting out when they release new content as it doesn't sound like anyone will be screening or overseeing the user created content before it is published.

[FestusHood]

Basing this entirely on the video clips provided, the only term that seems to fit the combat that i see is 'arcade style'.
It really looks as though it might be suited to the old style setup of a joystick and 3 or 4 action buttons. Holding down a button to charge attacks? Those visual trailer effects from the weapon swings remind me of that game i think was called Devil May Cry? A fairly enjoyable arcade style game but nothing i would confuse with tactical or role playing styles of play. Again this is based entirely on my take of the video clips.

As far as storyline goes, i'm one of those people that skips through the text boxes as soon as possible, even the first time i encounter them. Not just this game, every game. Any storyline i am aware of has to be done with dm narration or just be inherently obvious. I like that the messages from elminster have an audio component, since i certainly won't actually bother to read them, but i can sort of pay attention to what he is saying as i move about the wilderness.

It strikes me that the apparent arcade style of NWO and reading text boxes are highly incompatible.

[Missing_Minds]

Those visual trailer effects from the weapon swings remind me of that game i think was called Devil May Cry?

I always think back to Soul Edge/Caliber series.

And if they never stick flight into the game, an xbox controller would probably work fine for it. CO had xbox controller combatablity built in if i recall correctly.

Oh yeah, someone else mentioned role play. I do seriously hope that NWO has at least as much RP possibility built in as CO had. DDO has next to no support, which I always thought sad. Lotro has a modocom more, but that was only a "flag" that changed you from a "yellow" colored text name to a "white" to indicate you were an rper. That and chat bubbles. (optional you could turn on/off)