Vorpal Strikes vs. OC

[Kinerd]

Would earth still fall behind against bosses if they were constantly hasted? I'd almost thing they'd come out on top against things that could not be stunned.

Bosses, slimes, undead...

Also, if I'm doing an Earther, it would be a dark monk, so that would be constant TOD strikes, let alone I'd also be taking Void IV.

For raw DPS earth and wind are very close against 0 fort. Earth's two big issues from a raw DPS standpoint are pulling aggro (greatly diminishing sneak attack damage and in some cases being alive) and higher susceptibility to fortification. It has its uses for a pure DPS monk, but it requires some player finesse.

Interesting.

I have Precision and have never used Sunder. I'm on a first life character so no Past Life feat either. IIRC I have Mobility and Spring Attack in place of Past Life and Power Attack.

I turn Precision on and leave it on so not having Power Attack isn't a big deal. That and I'm not sure my base STR is enough for PA anyway.

Otherwise, most of the feats listed are the same.

Improved Sunder is the Pau Gasol of DDO feats: criminally underrated, brutally effective when given the chance. The biggest power surges for melees in recent times are to criticals (e.g. OC et al, moar Seeker) and sneak attack (e.g. Shadowdancer), and Improved Sunder reduces target fortification. Monks aren't the ideal IS users, but they're close.

[Aerendil]

Well, I must say, having run a previous PL monk (some time ago, pre-epic levels) and being familiar with the class, I was pretty much set on going Air/Earth when I made this thread, expecting most votes to be for OC or for both - and hoping the earth +1 crit mult and OC crit mult would make for excellent dps.

I think, perhaps, one day I'll try out an earth Monk with OC and perhaps even LD epic destiny just to see the satisfying 1k+ crits (on a x5 multiplier). But for now, i'm thinking Air/Wis may be the way to go for what I want (especially with GMoF abilities), so thank you all for the replies. Very much appreciated.

Now to level up another TR (*cries a little on the inside*) and gear up.

[rimble]

I think, perhaps, one day I'll try out an earth Monk with OC and perhaps even LD epic destiny just to see the satisfying 1k+ crits (on a x5 multiplier).

I must admit, it IS incredibly amusing...

x2 Base + x1 OC + x1 Earth Stance + x1 Devastating Critical + x2 E-E-E Finisher + 250% Master's Blitz + 50% Stunned + 30% Sense Weakness + 30% Damage Boost + 50% Combat Brute + + + + + ...

It can get pretty funny.

[Missing_Minds]

I must admit, it IS incredibly amusing...

x2 Base + x1 OC + x1 Earth Stance + x1 Devastating Critical + x2 E-E-E Finisher + 250% Master's Blitz + 50% Stunned + 30% Sense Weakness + 30% Damage Boost + 50% Combat Brute + + + + + ...

It can get pretty funny.

And may be a lot more worth while once EIN gets fixed.

[Carpone]

Does Vorpal Strikes also benefit from the +0.5[W] found on Vorpal weapon mutations in U17?

• The "Vorpal" weapon prefix now also adds an additional 0.5 damage dice to the attacks of the weapon it is on.

[Missing_Minds]

Does Vorpal Strikes also benefit from the +0.5[W] found on Vorpal weapon mutations in U17?

• The "Vorpal" weapon prefix now also adds an additional 0.5 damage dice to the attacks of the weapon it is on.

It should not.

[K_0tiC]

Wisdom is the only option now if you play endgame in any way shape or form for pure monks. Earth stance is not optional either the +4 con, prr from earth + prr from gmof combined with shadow fade, blur or smoke, monk 10dr, dodge in the 10-15% range make you take much less damage and id say 2nd place going to gm water if you want the ein/qp dcs after the change to ein.

Everything a monk does in EE end game needs to be spot on there is no space for those feat choices, let alone dropping back wisdom for silly things like void4. You'll end up with unstoppable dcs in stunning fist reliable qp in EE content on casters/lower fort save mobs, the 2 flower moves that hit multiple targets have a dc attached so the less often they land that's 50% damage and lower chance of the trip effect from lotus which is huge CC in any diffcult content/situations, jumping back or hitting lotus followed by blossom is 1000s of damage in 2 seconds to as much is around you (light monks that have cleave can throw one of these in too for added dps).
Not landing a stun/lotus can be fatal when incoming EE damage can be in the 150-300s per hit from multiple targets. The saved points from not taking void 4 gives you more space for amp, wisdom enhancements, human/helf versatility damage boost etc (this alone covers any lost dps in having a lower strength).

With the changes that happened too to hit and ac don't fear taking and using power attack with a 30strength unbuffed I have no issues at all hitting anything that my 78str barb can.
Personally I have tried and tested precision and don't think its worth it at all too few situations where fort makes a huge difference to completing a boss fight. Remeber landing dark dark dark curse gives the mob -25% fort, then improved sunder lowers ac/fort, destruction/imp destruction, gmof has 10% fort bypass and if you were desprate you could twist in grim precision for 15% more bypass or even wear blackscale for 15% more.

Personally I play dark monks but im really starting to question moving to light to pick up the second stun and jade strike since EEGH is very rough on melees.

[K_0tiC]

Now another option I guess if you desprately want both look at 18monk2fighter though this will cost you capstone dr10, ki+1 regen and +2 wisdom. Then go with 23str 23wisdom I would recommend having the past lives behind this though for the bonus to sf etc from fighter to cover some losses and maybe some pally lives for extra amp. 10pal 9monk 1rog/arti are pretty quick easy lives.

Or how I run my other monk is human 12monk/7fighter/1rogue though I will be tring shortly into helf 12monk/6fighter/2arti. This split buys you alot more dps many extra feats fighter haste boost fighter str fighter stun dc enhancements etc etc. the 2arti or 2rogue version costs you fighter haste boost 3 but you gain +30% scroll mastery (currently I self scroll for 251 so should see 300-400 with 2 more pally past lives and 30% mastery) small useful dog for levers etc, basic repeater usage great for the lowbie leveling and some basic spells that add to dps like enchant weapons. Helf with rogue dilly when your umd is 90%+ heal scrolls for the extra 3d6 sa damage or human (more skills +1feat) with 2 rogue levels for extra skill points basic ol/disable & 1d6+3 sa damage. Ill be looking at dropping improved sunder or quickdraw for the helf version ill see how it feels at cap.

[SensaiRyu]

I think, perhaps, one day I'll try out an earth Monk with OC and perhaps even LD epic destiny just to see the satisfying 1k+ crits (on a x5 multiplier).

I must admit, it IS incredibly amusing...

x2 Base + x1 OC + x1 Earth Stance + x1 Devastating Critical + x2 E-E-E Finisher + 250% Master's Blitz + 50% Stunned + 30% Sense Weakness + 30% Damage Boost + 50% Combat Brute + + + + + ...

It can get pretty funny.

And even more funny are my occasional 2.5k crits. I think with FoI. I don't use E-E-E enuf to ever crit with it. Need to make an earth quickbar with a FoI-E-E Finisher combo. Will that give me an occasional 5k crit?

Almost makes me want to start another monks are OP thread. Then the sorc shouts, "Wow a 15k crit!"

*sigh*

[LeadFeet]

I kept a wisdom build monk with vorpal strikes at level cap for 4 or 5 months (longest for me in ... well, ever). Most people i talk to about this are thinking of some large, but unstated and uncalculated, difference in stats on these two builds. As I would build a strength monk vs a wisdom monk, my strength build would have 6 or 8 more strength and my wisdom build would have 6 or 8 more wisdom. I would likely have a 6-point difference, but i'll consider the 8-point difference for the sake of argument. The strength build would have +4 to hit, +4 base damage/hit, and overwhelming critical would add around 8 damage/hit against 0 fort mobs with my gear setup. Whereas the wisdom build would would have +4 DCs to all the monk goodies, and vorpal strikes would average 5 damage/hit against non-deathwarded, non-undead mobs over 1000 hp. I'll leave the calculation for mobs under 1000 hp to someone more daring, but it adds some to the average damage as well. It's worth noting to those that don't know, vorpal strikes does proc the 100 damage on 20s against raid bosses, and also stacks with manslayer. The wisdom monk also gets some minor bonuses like +4 AC, +4 Will saves, and bypassing zombie DR. And my wisdom monk did have some difficulty overcoming the AC of EE raid bosses (maybe 40% grazing hits at the start of a fight). This was annoying when i was tanking, but the attack bonus from Tenser's helped when getting aggro initially, and once sunder and destruction debuffs kicked in I was fine without Tenser's.

So my conclusion is the strength build hits a little bit harder and the wisdom build stuns, etc... a little bit better, but the difference is small.

- Footsie (19th life Completionist on Orien)

[Alternative]

It should not.

Would be an oversight if it didn't. Unless devs already commented on it in which case linkplz.

[K_0tiC]

Does Vorpal Strikes also benefit from the +0.5[W] found on Vorpal weapon mutations in U17?

• The "Vorpal" weapon prefix now also adds an additional 0.5 damage dice to the attacks of the weapon it is on.

Tested on lam no it does not.

[Candela90]

Tested on lam no it does not.

Hm... do if it does not count as vorpal weapon then it should stack with vorpal weapon. Can anyone confirm if these stack? Double vorpal?

[Dexol]

Tested on lam no it does not.

Doesn't work with handwraps? what a surprise!

My 1st life pure dex/wind monk that i rolled on the day monks were released will get a tr at some point to be wis/air/VS, it does look fun.

[jskinner937]

You also get +0.5W base weapon dmg from VS. And yes you do rely on stunned for extra dps, but still can you can sps rednames fine especially if you have an imp deception item or a little bluff skill. But as far as vorpal procs go, that is just gravy. Try using helf rogue dilly on a stunned mob and a SA item like tharnes goggles on a stunned mob...now you will see the extra dps.

[Irongutz2000]

Gotta go with wis based, with the changes to hit, u no longer neeed to be dex or str based. It makes all ur tatics land better, vorpal stirkes is pretty decent, 5 pionts a swing.

I think OC is nice, but I think the feats u *waste* onn it can be put to better use, therefore making a better monk as a whole.


**********Edit I have both wind and earth i use onn my monk, wind for epic hards......... earth for epic elites ( if not then i get by butt kicked)

[Uhtred_Stark]

Points into wisdom to hit vorpal strikes will always out dps putting your level up points into strength. The goal of course is to shoot for +4 tomes to get both VS and OC. Though for a dark monk that makes a tricky sacrfice. Assuming human for the extra feat and all the needed feats (toughness,PA,TWF line,IC,stunning fist, PL Monk)....

If Light Monk OC/VS is a no brainer. You can still take VS/OC and improved sunder.

If Dark monk you have to take dodge, so if you take VS/OC you can't fit in improved sunder. Since improved sunder dramatically effects whether you are doing full or half damage on ToD it's a real question on whether or not the loss of dps from ToD is made up for by OC.

Plus the cleave attacks looks so cool with unarmed fighting why wouldn't you want to take them?

I don't have a +4 str tome now so I am rolling with VS and IMA. Autostuns in EE, vorp strike procs, manslayer procs and ToD plus quivering palm with a 90+ AC? Jeesh just a rolling death machine.

[raveman1000]

Just to add to this discussion, a strenght build with cleave, great cleave and OC let's you use Legendary Dreadnought with more ease, but the wis build without cleave/great cleave doesn't.

Having the two 5 seconds cooldown ability to charge master blitz (MB) let you charge it under 2 minutes. Once MB is started, no wis monk in GMoF will come close to the DPS of the LD. The added dodge bonus from MB is icing on the cake. In a lot of quests, raids you can have MB on for the whole of it or for the important parts. For the ones that you can't, you can switch back to GMoF.

I compared the two builds on my 11tr HE Dark monk and I probably won't go back to my GMoF build. With MB on I hit for 250-300 base damage + 100 sneak + dices on non stunned mobs with crits going above 1000. On stunned mobs you can image the damage (especially with sense weakness twist). My advice to you, try to reach the strenght requirement for OC and put the rest in Wis. Do not invest in Void IV. I used to have it, but now the DPS of MB is more than enough and I preferred to get more Wis and amp with my AP.

EDIT: all of this was tested in EE quests. Mobs die so quick that the reduced defense of this build is irrelevant. Note that MB also works on bosses if previously charged to 10 charges (for 2 and a half minute that is).