Vorpal Strikes vs. OC

[Aerendil]

Hey folks, just curious how many Monks have found Vorpal Strikes worth the +wis investment and/or if it's considered a "must have" epic feat.

I'm just looking at that Wis 23 requirement, in addition to OC's Str 23 requirement, and thinking I'll be hard-pressed to work both into a character template.
eg. starting at a 16 stat in each, with +4 tomes, it's *possible* to hit str/wis 23 if you split your level ups, but aside from that, it's not really a possibility and I may have to choose one or the other.

The logic behind OC was to combine stunning fist + earth stance + OC.
Probably going light monk as well, in which case one of the OC prereq's can be used for Shintao as well.

Thoughts?

[rimble]

I like both, but it takes some effort, as you mentioned. I have taken OC and IMA first, until the +4 tomes come my way.

[bruener]

i find it very useful and having a wis base monk is always worth it IMO. i would rather have my stuns land than not land and same with quivering palm. sure a str based may hit a little harder than a wis based but not when its stunned or in the case of quivering palm...just gone.

[goodspeed]

before i'd say str based was better, but now i'd say if your even looking at epic elite probably wis based. If stunning fist doesn't land your just doing ok dmg at best even as a str build. The real numbers come from helpless forcing SA dmg as well as having sense weakness twisted.

Though with the slowed attack rate and possibly if you were in grandmaster, wouldn't earth lower your dps output?

[Aerendil]

Though with the slowed attack rate and possibly if you were in grandmaster, wouldn't earth lower your dps output?

I'm presuming I'll be hasted, either through potions, hireling, or in a group/raid setting an arcane caster.

Not sure how often I'll be doing EE, but the possibility is nice - although you can reach a 60+ dc these days without a huge wisdom investment.

Hmm, tough call.

[rimble]

Hmm, tough call.

Eh, I figure it's a wash in most situations. The loss of damage from lower Strength is offset by the +100 damage on Vorpals...plus you get actual Vorpals sometimes, plus Slashing damage.

[Missing_Minds]

I'm a non powergamer, and I hate to take feats that I don't use. So for my playstyle for the monk, that would be 2 feats that would seldom get used (cleave/great cleave)

So with that in mind, I've been enjoying vorpal strikes a lot on my monk. add in the fact it stacks with the Manslayer effect, and some creatures you'll see double hundreds. Double 150s if you have them stunned first.

But if I were trying to make a threat, earth based monk? Yeah, I'd probalby be trying to go OC first, and VS only if possible later. Probably take at least a 3rd life for 36 pt builds to make it really feasable.

[Therigar]

Hey folks, just curious how many Monks have found Vorpal Strikes worth the +wis investment and/or if it's considered a "must have" epic feat.

I used a LR to revamp Tangledroots as a WIS monk just to take Vorpal Strike. Having done that, I would not build differently ever again. I don't get in as many EE as I'd like, mostly because I'm busy doing silly things like playing Ruh Roh Shaggy or the unnamed Khyber Kid. But, thru EH it absolutely made things so much easier.

IMO it is all about attack speed so that you maximize the number of chances for VS to proc. When VS, Drow Smoke Goggles and QP are all rolling the mobs don't last long. WIS is the key to it all.

So, if you are going to go with VS you absolutely MUST go with the WIS build. What I've read from others in similar threads is that they don't like VS. But, when you look at their builds they are all holding WIS down and putting the emphasis in STR or DEX.

You can't do that if you want VS to proc. You have to push the WIS.

Now, is it a "must have" feat? No. Without the WIS it is a "must NOT have" feat IMO. My experience is that VS and WIS go hand in hand. If you are building with WS you SHOULD take VS. Otherwise, you should not.

[Therigar]

One more thing.

Earth is the flavor of the moment but, IMO, still falls behind Air stance. Keep in mind that the strength of a WIS based monk is in Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm. These DO proc routinely but rely on high WIS for the DC.

The more you attack the more damage you are doing. Running in Earth really loses attack speed and, IMO, if you are all about procs on damage like VS or Drow Smoke Goggles then you want as many attacks as possible.

My son's monk we tried fitting in both Air and Earth. I think that might be possible if a person really worked with the enhancement choices. I know that there is a large community of monks right now using Earth (mostly for the PRR it seems).

Still, IMO, Air is the way to go with this.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Something to bear in mind is that the GMoF destiny DCs in u17 are being standardised from

20+char level+half wisdom modifier
to
10+char level+full wisdom modifier

Personally, i think it makes more sense this way... why should some barbarian with wisdom so low their sense motive skills can be fooled by a roadrunner-esque tunnel painted into the side of a cliff be able to use an EiN with almost the same power as a disciplined & centered monk who has attained oneness with the cosmos?

[Aerendil]

Thanks for the responses so far everyone.
Some further thoughts/comments:

Something to bear in mind is that the GMoF destiny DCs in u17 are being standardised from

20+char level+half wisdom modifier
to
10+char level+full wisdom modifier

Yeah, just read that this morning. Interesting. My only concern is that a full-Wis monk is going to run into the problem of relying on vorpal/manslayer procs and +50% damage from stunned as the main source of damage. Vorpal/manslayer procs are unpredictable, and stun or QP vs. red names is a wash (although GMOF epic moment does work for 1000 dmg, but again that's not a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. FoTW barbs and archers can do many, many times that damage).

I used a LR to revamp Tangledroots as a WIS monk just to take Vorpal Strike. Having done that, I would not build differently ever again. I don't get in as many EE as I'd like, mostly because I'm busy doing silly things like playing Ruh Roh Shaggy or the unnamed Khyber Kid. But, thru EH it absolutely made things so much easier.

IMO it is all about attack speed so that you maximize the number of chances for VS to proc. When VS, Drow Smoke Goggles and QP are all rolling the mobs don't last long. WIS is the key to it all.

You lost me there. Aside from Wis being relevant to QP (and stunning fist), what does it have to do with vorpal strikes and manslayer? (aside from having enough Wis to get VS).

One more thing.

Earth is the flavor of the moment but, IMO, still falls behind Air stance. Keep in mind that the strength of a WIS based monk is in Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm. These DO proc routinely but rely on high WIS for the DC.

The more you attack the more damage you are doing. Running in Earth really loses attack speed and, IMO, if you are all about procs on damage like VS or Drow Smoke Goggles then you want as many attacks as possible.

My son's monk we tried fitting in both Air and Earth. I think that might be possible if a person really worked with the enhancement choices. I know that there is a large community of monks right now using Earth (mostly for the PRR it seems).

Still, IMO, Air is the way to go with this.

Air was my favourite stance previously on a Monk PL, so I can't exactly argue there. However, my reasoning behind this build was mostly stunning them, combined with high crit damage which earth stance factors in to.
(eg. +80% from sense weakness in FoTW; seeker and exc. seeker items; and nice multipliers such as OC and earth stance III/IV, as well as light stance's smite tainted).

Also, IIRC, earth doesn't lose any attack speed any more than water or fire would. Earth's penalty is movement speed.

Lastly, aside from the upcoming GMoF changes requiring higher wis for DC's, stunning fist can reach a reasonable level without a high wis, which was my initial plan.
i.e. Stunning fist DC = 10 + 1/2 lvl (12 at cap) + wis mod + other factors.
= 22 + 10 (stunning +10) + 3 (GMoF innate) + 6 (LD twist) + 5 (bear cloak or spare hand) + 2-3 (racial - 3 if dwarf; 2 if half-elf fighter dile) + wis mod
= 48-49 + wis mod. So a mere wis of 30ish would put me at close to 60ish DC.
Boost this further if you have completionist and multiple fighter past lives of course - although I don't have those on this character.

Anyways, just some further thoughts.
Those GMoF upcoming changes are the real kicker I think.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

as far as stances are concerned, depends how you look at it.

earth stance means you get 1.5 x(multiplier of 3 vs. 2) damage on a roll of a 19/20,
so, 1.5 x damage 10% of the time

or
you can have 2x the damage 10% of the time with doublestrike

Really comes down to more damage vs. bigger numbers and what destiny you're in. GMoF can add 3% more double strike in wind only. but i'd rather have 2x the damage thank you...

As far as is vorpal strikes worth it, i say F*** YEAH!

[Missing_Minds]

Earth is the flavor of the moment but, IMO, still falls behind Air stance. Keep in mind that the strength of a WIS based monk is in Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm. These DO proc routinely but rely on high WIS for the DC.

Would earth still fall behind against bosses if they were constantly hasted? I'd almost thing they'd come out on top against things that could not be stunned.

Bosses, slimes, undead...

Also, if I'm doing an Earther, it would be a dark monk, so that would be constant TOD strikes, let alone I'd also be taking Void IV.

[TeacherSyn]

Would earth still fall behind against bosses if they were constantly hasted? I'd almost thing they'd come out on top against things that could not be stunned.

Bosses, slimes, undead...

Also, if I'm doing an Earther, it would be a dark monk, so that would be constant TOD strikes, let alone I'd also be taking Void IV.

Earth is great for protection and it is possible to have a high WIS to make it happen. I had mine at her first life with moderate STR, high CON and high WIS--but not high enough for Vorpal Strikes.

I'm tweaking her in her 2nd life (especially with advice in this thread) for Vorpal Strikes since STR helps damage, sure, but crits and high DCs bring in faster stuns, specials and kills, no matter the build. I'll look to my roboMonk for experimenting with OC.

I love Void IV...until "Death Blossom" epic moments came along, which lowered my taste for a chance to obliterate something over annihilating everything. That way I can devote the AP I'd have to use to increase the Monk stances needed for Void IV into WIS and ability scores with those epic feats in mind.

I'd go Ocean for a Dark Monk for improved WIS...I woudn't want the aggro on something that can't heal as well, innately.

[WanderingGrump]

On my light monk I leveled as a STR based Shintao with the full Void IV line in fire stance most of the time. I found that as you got beyond level 20 that very often the Void IV erase proc's would fail more often than not and I wasn't impressed with the damage numbers Overwhelming Crit brought to the table. It was ok but not overly spectacular to my thinking.

Then just before Mabar I LR'd into a Wisdom build and wow, I was impressed with how much of a difference that made to the monk abilities in epic content from stunning to quivering palm. Quivering Palm went from working once in a blue moon if I ever bothered to hit it, to an extremely reliable insta-kill for Caster types in EH and some EE content. I also dropped the Void Line for the most part and went for both Wind IV and Earth IV stances. I find I spend a lot of my time in Wind unless I get into heavy DPS fights where the HP matters. The Sun Soul set from the Villages is also a factor as in Earth that bubble is excellent for when I want to solo some pretty nasty area's. I find I can solo certain raid explorer area's at will for as long as I want like both the House C Raid area's and not really need help.

I can't say how often the "Vorpal" part of the feat actually proc's but I know it's in there. I do like that it adds slashing damage to every attack which is yet another DR form (mostly zombies I know).

I have to say I would take Vorpal and go WIS based if you are prepared to go all out Wisdom. Right now mine stands at 40 Wis and a 30 Str (not a dump stat by any means but I do think the Wisdom is definitely worth it based on the content I am running.

[Therigar]

You lost me there. Aside from Wis being relevant to QP (and stunning fist), what does it have to do with vorpal strikes and manslayer? (aside from having enough Wis to get VS).

Ah, VS and WIS have only the prereq in common and manslayer is a bonus but taken all together with the SF and QP it makes a total package. I guess that's what I was trying to communicate.

If you go dark path with ToD you'll also want WIS as that is what the ToD DC is based on as well. So, what I'm trying to say is that you really want to go all in on WIS or it isn't worth it IMO. If you aren't willing to go all in on WIS then there's really no sense going for VS -- getting to the base WIS required isn't worth the investment just to get that feat.

So, it is an all or nothing situation IMO. All WIS plus VS or no extra WIS and no VS.

Regarding stance choices, Grandmaster of Storms is a 15% increase in attack speed, the same as haste. So the attack speeds should be the same if you are constantly hasted.

Where you could lose out is in the double-strike. GMoS gives a 10% double-strike. I don't know if that is offset by MoS increased crit multiplier. Intuitively I think not, but it could be close.

[DarkForte]

On a pure non-human tr dark monk, I see little reason to fit OC.

On my helf monk I currently have these 12 feats: Toughness, dodge, sunder, twf, itwf, gtwf, PA, SF, IC: Blunt, pl monk, IMA, VS.

I consider the first 9 feats to be mostly irreplaceable. Replacing the last 3 feats with OC line is a net DPS loss.

[Therigar]

On a pure non-human tr dark monk, I see little reason to fit OC.

On my helf monk I currently have these 12 feats: Toughness, dodge, sunder, twf, itwf, gtwf, PA, SF, IC: Blunt, pl monk, IMA, VS.

I consider the first 9 feats to be mostly irreplaceable. Replacing the last 3 feats with OC line is a net DPS loss.

Interesting.

I have Precision and have never used Sunder. I'm on a first life character so no Past Life feat either. IIRC I have Mobility and Spring Attack in place of Past Life and Power Attack.

I turn Precision on and leave it on so not having Power Attack isn't a big deal. That and I'm not sure my base STR is enough for PA anyway.

Otherwise, most of the feats listed are the same.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Another thing to bear in mind about vorpal strikes is that you get to karate chop peoples heads off

And that's just cool

[SensaiRyu]

I took both (or plan to once I'm lvl 24).

Last life I had Vorp strikes only - and 3 more Wis than this life. This life, I took OC at lvl 21. The occasional 1k crits are always nice to see. Most crits are about 200 dmg more than I was seeing last life.

Cleave and GCleave are very useful for priming Master's Blitz. Although I only have GCleave on my usual quickbar. First 5 quickbar slots are IS, Stun, FoI, GC, FoL.

It's probably FoI that's giving me 1k crits with OC.

Stuns are still in the lower to mid 50's without Spare Hand.

Taking both feats, I'm giving up +2 on wis-based DCs and AC for a bit more str, base dps, and a crit multiplier. A fair trade I think.