Make Quick Draw a granted Ranger feat

[droid327]

Rangers already have a buttload of granted feats, yes, but most of that is tied into making it somewhat realistic to have a char that has passable ranged and TWF melee ability, with a focus in one (AA or Tempest) with a backup in the other.

Its more important, perhaps, for a Tempest that wants a decent backup bow, than an AA who might stay with bow even in melee range - but the Tempest is going to need to devote more feats to melee than the AA will to ranged combat feats.

So even with all the granted feats, with no bonus feat slots, most Rangers arent going to give up a feat slot for Quick Draw, whose primary benefit is the instant weapon switch, not the increased thrown weapon speed. It does make sense, though, to have that in the Ranger skillset, and might make it slightly more desirable to actually have a weapon-switching playstyle, which is more onerous than its often worth with the 1s weapon switch time.

[Mastikator]

...The difference is like 1 second to ½ a second, how fast do you need to swap weapon sets?

[FranOhmsford]

I'd much prefer Rangers get Toughness granted personally!
AND to be given back their AD&D 2nd Ed. D10 HP per level! - Or even the 1st Ed. 2D8 {base 16 in DDO} at Lvl 1!

[Mastikator]

By level 11 Rangers have gotten Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Diehard, Precise Shot, Manyshot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Precise Shot, Greater Two Weapon Fighting. That's 11 free feats. By comparison a fighter gets 7 by level 12, or 11 by 20. In addition to this Rangers also get good reflex save, EVASION, spells and 4 more skill points/level, and rangers don't even need Dexterity to get these feats, a Fighter would need to invest considerably to get all those, a Ranger could DUMP dex entirely.
Rangers do not need more free feats, they need people to not treat them as pure archers!

[Aliss7]

I'm all for giving quickdraw to rangers.

The weapon switch time is actually already halfway there... when you switch from melee to ranged it's nice and quick, but switching from ranged to melee is like molasses.

[Impaqt]

I'd much prefer Rangers get Toughness granted personally!
AND to be given back their AD&D 2nd Ed. D10 HP per level! - Or even the 1st Ed. 2D8 {base 16 in DDO} at Lvl 1!

Back then, we actually rolled the die to determine the number.. Didnt just get the max....

Also did not have "Heroic Durability"

I'll take DDO's HP Calcs, thank you.

[droid327]

That's 11 free feats. By comparison a fighter gets 7 by level 12, or 11 by 20....
Rangers do not need more free feats, they need people to not treat them as pure archers!

Well Tempest PrE also has 3 feat requirements that you generally wouldnt take on their own...so it balances out a little.

And a great way to get people not to treat them like "pure archers" is to facilitate better hybrid gameplay, like I said in my OP...if you lose a second switching from ranged to melee, or from one specialized set (ie Evil Beaters) to another (ie Undead Beaters), you're more likely to just not bother and put all your eggs in the Bow basket.

...The difference is like 1 second to ½ a second, how fast do you need to swap weapon sets?

Well its the difference between being able to shoot arrows all the way until they're in melee range, or be able to pull back to ranged while kiting, and having to switch halfway through a pull and stand there waiting for them to finish closing the gap. It doesnt matter for most playstyles, because most playstyles arent true hybrids, and dont take advantage of frequent weapon switching.

Its not really 1s either - its 1s from when your animation finishes, so it disrupts your attack rhythm. Instant switching makes it a lot easier to gauge when to switch to get your sword/axe out just as the mob gets in range, or as you switch from one monster type to another like I said above.

[Jay203]

Well Tempest PrE also has 3 feat requirements that you generally wouldnt take on their own...so it balances out a little.

no it doesn't
ranger free feats bypass the stat requirements >_>

and you won't need to take those 3 feats if you're not going tempest

[FranOhmsford]

Back then, we actually rolled the die to determine the number.. Didnt just get the max....

Also did not have "Heroic Durability"

I'll take DDO's HP Calcs, thank you.

Back then we stopped rolling dice for hp at all around Lvl 9 or 10 dependant on class - After which each class got a set {very small} amount of HP per Level {that did not include Con Bonuses!}.

DDO gives EVERY Class a lot more HP than was EVER considered in PnP!

The fact is that Rangers have been gypped comparatively to the other Melee classes! {and if Rangers are Specialists then why aren't Paladins Divines?}

Heroic Durability is also something that EVERY class gets!

And I know of quite a few GMs who allowed max HP at Lvl 1 at least {99% would make you roll for later levels yes}.

HP wise Rangers have been {in my mind} let down by DDO!

[Mastikator]

Well Tempest PrE also has 3 feat requirements that you generally wouldnt take on their own...so it balances out a little.

And a great way to get people not to treat them like "pure archers" is to facilitate better hybrid gameplay, like I said in my OP...if you lose a second switching from ranged to melee, or from one specialized set (ie Evil Beaters) to another (ie Undead Beaters), you're more likely to just not bother and put all your eggs in the Bow basket.

A Ranger doesn't need to be Tempest to be melee, in fact, even an Arcane Archer would do more damage in melee than ranged while not on Manyshot, provided he has similar quality of weapons. The feats a ranger would need to be a good melee are improved crit, exotic weapon prof: khopesh, power attack. All of this can be done with 8 base dex.
Only a ranger could swap between Manyshot and Greater Two Weapon fighting at level 11 without any dexterity. Any other TWF character would need 17 dex, a big investment. Even a Tempest Ranger would only need 13 dex, any point spent into dex above 13 on a primarily melee ranger is pure waste, and yet they put points into it. THAT is the problem.

[droid327]

A Ranger doesn't need to be Tempest to be melee, in fact, even an Arcane Archer would do more damage in melee than ranged while not on Manyshot, provided he has similar quality of weapons. The feats a ranger would need to be a good melee are improved crit, exotic weapon prof: khopesh, power attack. All of this can be done with 8 base dex.
Only a ranger could swap between Manyshot and Greater Two Weapon fighting at level 11 without any dexterity. Any other TWF character would need 17 dex, a big investment. Even a Tempest Ranger would only need 13 dex, any point spent into dex above 13 on a primarily melee ranger is pure waste, and yet they put points into it. THAT is the problem.

Make a dex dumped AA and tell me how that works out for you...

And you forget OTWF for khopeshes. Add in toughness, mental tough and emp heal and those are all your feat choices for a pure ranger nonhuman. Neither a Tempest or AA based hybrid has room for QD.

The whole point of all the granted feats - as opposed to class bonus feats - is so rangers CAN hybridize. Quick Draw is only the logical continuation of that idea.