Toughness

[TGOskar]

Lastly, in PnP, players do not get a feat at 1st level called heroic durability. These 20hp is the equivalent of a free toughness feat. Remember that in PnP, toughness is only 3hp, ever.

Oh, I thought Toughness required a base Fort save of +2 and gave you 1 hp per level...Because who takes Toughness when you can take Improved Toughness?

On topic: I can't agree with this. Basically, it prizes brute force over tactics and proper building technique. On the other hand, it's evident that Toughness is indispensable, due in most part that only melee characters really care that much for feats. Casters only care for a small set of metamagics (Empower, Maximize, Quicken, probably Eschew Materials), one or two Spell Focus (if they're aiming for maximizing DC for end-game spells), and then...nothing else. In fact, Toughness is invaluable over Mental Toughness, which should be the aim for casters after all. I cannot vie for a nerf to Toughness, but perhaps some tweaking so that worship to HP levels gets cut down a bit. After all, between Toughness and Con 14+, you're already limiting your builds.

Then again: isn't it supposed that only certain classes get the double Toughness enhancements, which is exactly what blerk suggests? It's already limited enough. I roll my Sense Motive check against sarcasm!

[gphysalis]

Oh, I thought Toughness required a base Fort save of +2 and gave you 1 hp per level...Because who takes Toughness when you can take Improved Toughness?

The Tarrasque

[FranOhmsford]

This is what I was gonna write:

"I'm frankly stunned that no-one has mentioned the biggest reason why the OP's suggestion is a no-no!

To wit: The Elitists will simply insist that everyone takes another Toughness feat anyway!

All you're doing OP is giving everyone in game an extra 23 hp at Lvl 20!"

BUT as I typed it I realised that I actually like the OP's suggestion!

For the simple reason that: The Toughness feat {unlike Heroic Durability} gives access to the Toughness Enhancements!
A second Toughness feat would in essence be nothing more than 20 extra hp at Lvl 20!

I WOULD PREFER HOWEVER: Just giving Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians this FREE Toughness feat as they're the classes that really should get it for free!
Fighters have all the bonus feats in the world already - If they can't fit in Toughness then something's seriously wrong!

[Musouka]

I WOULD PREFER HOWEVER: Just giving Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians this FREE Toughness feat as they're the classes that really should get it for free!

You also haven't really mentioned why they should.

To the OP, not every character needs toughness. I have a Human Sorcerer that did not take Toughness. I don't feel the need to take it, when I could use the feat slot to make the character's spells more effective, or even more powerful. I also get to spend more AP on enhancements to make the spells more effective and powerful.

[jellyfish21]

The dwarf and warforged both start their character creations with a bonus to constitution. Furthermore, each can improve their constitutions by another two points with racial enhancements. Selecting a begining constitution score of 20 and then using the enhancements improves your constitution to 22, an ability modifier of +6. Human, halfling, half-elf & halforc all could only aquire a starting constitution of 18, an ability modifier of +4. Then, elves and drow may only start at a 16, an ability modifier of +3.

At character level 20, each race will have bonus to hit points based upon their constitution; a sample of bonus to hit points with constitution scores is as follows, taking the predeeding paragraphs constition ideas:
1) Dwarf and Warforged will recieve 120 health from their constitution.
2) Human, halfling, half-orc and half-elf will recieve 80 health from their constitution
3) Elves and drow will recieve 60 health from their constituion.

Furthermore, the dwarf and warfoged can take the racial enhancements for improved toughness a total of four times. Humans and elves can take it three and all the other races can take it only twice.

Paladins, fighters, barbarians and favored souls can take another enhancement to have another four improved class toughness.

The paladin and fighter can take a defensive prestige and improve their constitutions for a total of +6 constitution with an ability modifier of +3.

I do not know the entire enhancement line for barbarians. However, their rage bonus at character level 20 to constitution is +6 (+3 modifier) and can take class enhancements to improve their constitution scores even further.

One Toughness feat raises your total health by 22. Each race can improve this by 20. This end result is a +42 health.

I have seen in countless parties and raids a big tragidy:

People are kicked out of a raid because they have too few hit points.

At level ten, for the first raid at tempest spine, people with toughness and the two racial toughness enhancements will add at total of 32 health. I believe this bonus 32 health will be the breaking point to allow, and not kick, people new to the game.

Do we really want to kick people who are new to the game? Do we really want to deminish our number of players that are active?

Mind you, the more experienced players may or may not take even an additional toughness feat beyond the one gifted at character creation. I will not. My bard and sorcerer will be better off without an additional, selected toughness feat.. I truely believe that a new person would feel the same.

[Enoach]

Thank you, sir. You have the only inteligent response.

As long as you understand that I do not agree that Toughness should be a free feat for everyone, it should be a choice.

[Symerith]

This thread is a mess.

And no toughness shouldn't be an autogrant.

For the toons that can spare one feat, it's nice to have for sure but taking toughness instead of a more useful feat is critical.

I, for one, never take toughness - Pally PL, completionist feat being more useful.

[Jaid314]

...it's evident that Toughness is indispensable, due in most part that only melee characters really care that much for feats. Casters only care for a small set of metamagics (Empower, Maximize, Quicken, probably Eschew Materials), one or two Spell Focus (if they're aiming for maximizing DC for end-game spells), and then...nothing else.

i'm getting the impression you've never played a caster. for one thing, nobody takes eschew materials if they care about having an effective character. for another thing, i have never played a single caster that wouldn't benefit considerably from having more feats available. on my wizard, i would have loved to have another 2-4 feats for spell focus.

on my sorcerer, feats are bloody tight. there's a reason human fairly consistently comes in as one of the top choices for sorcerers, and it isn't the extra skill point.

for a sorcerer, you pretty much want: maximize, empower, quicken (at least once you hit epics), spell focus. depending, you may also want two spell pen feats (some really nice spells have no save, but still have to get through spell resistance), and at least one more spell focus (most sorcerers are fairly heavily invested in 1-2 schools, so i could easily see wanting to spend a total of 4 feats on that). add in the possibility of past life feats (the wizard past life is awesome, bard is a slight possibility, cleric is a slight possibility), and the possible desire for even more spell focus feats (just because most sorcerers focus on either conjuration or evocation doesn't mean that they wouldn't like to be able to have good conjuration, evocation, necromancy, and enchantment DCs. heck, a few would probably also like transmutation DC to go up as well). most of the time, toughness is not just a matter of "oh, i don't have anything good, i'll take toughness", it's "ok, well, i could *really* use an extra 47 HP to keep myself from dying too easily". plus, if i had room, i'd still take extend; arcanes in general dropped extend because there were so many feats they needed to take more, not because they didn't want it at all.

on a sorcerer, i could easily envision spending 13 or more feats, if i had them available. on a wizard, easily more than that, even.

clerics and favoured souls have it *slightly* easier in most cases. for one thing, they have a lot fewer spells with DCs, so they need fewer spell focus feats (most will invest in evocation, if anything at all). combine that with the fact that fewer of their spells require SR checks, and you get a lower investment... although, again, that's because most realize they only have so many feats to spend and so they know they won't have enough to be effective at more than one task anyways; that is, they know full well that if they put feats towards boosting evocation DC, they won't have enough for both spell pen feats and both necromancy DC feats, and vice versa. in general, for a divine, you'll be looking at:

maximize, empower, empower heal, quicken, as a base. many melee, which means either the THF or TWF line, plus power attack/precision, and improved critical. those who focus on evocation will want 2 spell focus feats, those who want necromancy will also want 2 spell focus feats and both spell pen feats, and if you're a casting cleric or favoured soul you'd likely *prefer* to have both necromancy and evocation, if you could.

i assure you, casters want more feats. if there was a race that offered 5 bonus feats of any choice, you'd see just as many casters taking it as you would melees.

casters "need" less feats because we recognize that there's only so much we can do with the feats available. the only reason a sorcerer doesn't need half a dozen spell focus feats is that the average sorcerer already knows it can't be fit in, and therefore builds the rest of the character around not needing those feats... but that isn't remotely the same thing as not having a use for more feats.

[redspecter23]

The issue with toughness is that it is a very, very good feat. Far better than most feats which makes it an easy auto (almost) inclusion in every build. The power of the feat, however, isn't in the feat itself, but in the unlocks for extra hp that you receive just for taking the feat.

I'd like to see the unlocks separated from the feat in some way so that the benefit of toughness remains the same, but the massive amount of extra enhancement hp you get simply for taking it is gained in some other way, without needing the toughness feat at all.

In this way, maximum potential hp stays the same and the toughness feat itself remains the same, but the "unlock" advantage goes away, meaning toons that don't want to take toughness "only" lose 20ish hp instead of upwards of 80 or more.

Granting it as a free extra bonus feat does nothing more than simply grant a free feat to almost every build. I'm not sure I see the justification for that action. The problem lies in the extreme power level of the enhancement boost and that's the area that should be addressed if any changes would be made to the feat. Right now, it's a nearly mandatory feat that reduces build options instead of expanding them.

[jellyfish21]

I feel that everyone's replies are very important to me; furthermore, I enjoy the discussion because of the possibilities which may improve the players new to the game. I have taken extreames for the new person, and this is yet another. I am a very good guide for every quest from level one to about level 16. New folks are the future of our game. At every aspect of the game, they must be supported. So, thank you for the cleaver and, at times, the funny posts.

[TGOskar]

i'm getting the impression you've never played a caster. for one thing, nobody takes eschew materials if they care about having an effective character. for another thing, i have never played a single caster that wouldn't benefit considerably from having more feats available. on my wizard, i would have loved to have another 2-4 feats for spell focus.

on my sorcerer, feats are bloody tight. there's a reason human fairly consistently comes in as one of the top choices for sorcerers, and it isn't the extra skill point.

for a sorcerer, you pretty much want: maximize, empower, quicken (at least once you hit epics), spell focus. depending, you may also want two spell pen feats (some really nice spells have no save, but still have to get through spell resistance), and at least one more spell focus (most sorcerers are fairly heavily invested in 1-2 schools, so i could easily see wanting to spend a total of 4 feats on that). add in the possibility of past life feats (the wizard past life is awesome, bard is a slight possibility, cleric is a slight possibility), and the possible desire for even more spell focus feats (just because most sorcerers focus on either conjuration or evocation doesn't mean that they wouldn't like to be able to have good conjuration, evocation, necromancy, and enchantment DCs. heck, a few would probably also like transmutation DC to go up as well). most of the time, toughness is not just a matter of "oh, i don't have anything good, i'll take toughness", it's "ok, well, i could *really* use an extra 47 HP to keep myself from dying too easily". plus, if i had room, i'd still take extend; arcanes in general dropped extend because there were so many feats they needed to take more, not because they didn't want it at all.

on a sorcerer, i could easily envision spending 13 or more feats, if i had them available. on a wizard, easily more than that, even.

clerics and favoured souls have it *slightly* easier in most cases. for one thing, they have a lot fewer spells with DCs, so they need fewer spell focus feats (most will invest in evocation, if anything at all). combine that with the fact that fewer of their spells require SR checks, and you get a lower investment... although, again, that's because most realize they only have so many feats to spend and so they know they won't have enough to be effective at more than one task anyways; that is, they know full well that if they put feats towards boosting evocation DC, they won't have enough for both spell pen feats and both necromancy DC feats, and vice versa. in general, for a divine, you'll be looking at:

maximize, empower, empower heal, quicken, as a base. many melee, which means either the THF or TWF line, plus power attack/precision, and improved critical. those who focus on evocation will want 2 spell focus feats, those who want necromancy will also want 2 spell focus feats and both spell pen feats, and if you're a casting cleric or favoured soul you'd likely *prefer* to have both necromancy and evocation, if you could.

i assure you, casters want more feats. if there was a race that offered 5 bonus feats of any choice, you'd see just as many casters taking it as you would melees.

casters "need" less feats because we recognize that there's only so much we can do with the feats available. the only reason a sorcerer doesn't need half a dozen spell focus feats is that the average sorcerer already knows it can't be fit in, and therefore builds the rest of the character around not needing those feats... but that isn't remotely the same thing as not having a use for more feats.

The only caster I've played to 10th level is Cleric, so you've got a point. That doesn't mean I'm wrong because I haven't played more casters.

That said: the same argument can be applied to melee builds. I'd say that melee characters would desire MORE feats than casters would, because casters would want to have more feats to add Spell Focus feats to, while melee builds would desire more feats to do something else (why Paladins can't get, say, Improved Sunder or Slicing Blow or Stunning Blow? Namely, their feats are as limited as those of Sorcerers).

The problem you're addressing isn't that all classes need (or not) more Toughness. What you're addressing is that toons should have more feat slots, which is an entirely different monster. Your argument relies on "if I had more feat slots, I could get more Spell Focus feats to improve my DCs, so casters also need lots of feat slots"; it's an argument where you express casters need more feat slots because they could get stronger with it, unllike melee builds that need feat slots to make ends meet. My argument inclines towards needs: a caster needs less feats than a melee to be worthwhile. That doesn't mean casters won't want more feats to be much better; it means that, within the current framework of feats, the amount a caster needs to make ends meet (and thus cares for) is less than the amount of feats a melee needs to do exactly the same. I don't think I have to play 200 casters up to Completionist to understand that. I don't think I can have the blessing of having many casters, or melees FWIW, to appeal to authority on that regard, so I can't speak from a perspective other than build planning to state that point. And, from a build-planning perspective, the amount of feats a caster needs before it has to start thinking on the worth of choosing Toughness is not the same as with a melee.

[droid327]

The problem isnt the Toughness feat. The problem is that Toughness is a prereq for Racial Toughness, class Toughness etc. enhancements. So Toughness isnt just about 22 HP, its about 50+ HP, which is such a meaningful bonus as to make it virtually required, if only because no other feat is as useful as all that extra HP.

The solution isnt to make Toughness auto-granted, the more elegant solution might be to make the Toughness feat only a prereq for, say, Class Toughnesses, or Racial Toughness 3+. That way, if you forego Toughness, you're only leaving 30+ HP off the table, rather than 50-70 or more. That value might make it more comparable to other feat options, rather than the clear "best option".

[Kelendren]

Hi,

No, no-one should get or be allowed to take toughness unless they are a tank unit.

All other classes should not be permitted to take the feat, AND they should have heroic durability removed as well.

Only then will people realise that there is only one true way to play DDO, as it is played by the great majority of the community and all correctly-thinking individuals.

We could even take this further and make toughness, GFL and elemental energy items unequippable by certain classes. That will help certain people learn to stay in their appointed roles and never do anything else.

Or not, which is what I would prefer!

Thanks.

OK, while I agree, -to some extent- that some classes shouldn't be able to take toughness (a buff as crud wizard? really?), everyone should get Heroic Durability and should be able to use toughness items. Look at it this way. A level 1 wizard -with HD- has, what? 28, 30 hp, depending on their CON? Without heroic durability, they'd have 8 or 10 health. Considering that some level 1 spells can deal as much as 1-6 damage at level 1, a wizard without HD could potentially one-shot themselves with a critical hit. Also, continuing on the topic of wizards, PM's. Necrotic Tough, Necrotic Bolt, and Necrotic Blast, taking 5, 10, or 20 health respectfully. Granted, 20 health isn't too too bad at level 18, it's still a decent hit for someone that doesn't have HD, OR any stacks of toughness, NAD no toughness items.

[blerkington]

OK, while I agree, -to some extent- that some classes shouldn't be able to take toughness (a buff as crud wizard? really?), everyone should get Heroic Durability and should be able to use toughness items. Look at it this way. A level 1 wizard -with HD- has, what? 28, 30 hp, depending on their CON? Without heroic durability, they'd have 8 or 10 health. Considering that some level 1 spells can deal as much as 1-6 damage at level 1, a wizard without HD could potentially one-shot themselves with a critical hit. Also, continuing on the topic of wizards, PM's. Necrotic Tough, Necrotic Bolt, and Necrotic Blast, taking 5, 10, or 20 health respectfully. Granted, 20 health isn't too too bad at level 18, it's still a decent hit for someone that doesn't have HD, OR any stacks of toughness, NAD no toughness items.

Hi,

I think that the reference here has been missed by some people reading and commenting on my post.

At the time I posted, there was a very animated discussion going on in another thread, now locked, from a community member who has what I consider to be very narrow and extreme views about party roles and building for specialisation. It's not so much that I mind the point of view, more his tendency to present it as being the only option.

Being one of those wicked people who believes in the usefulness of multiclassing and who thinks characters can fulfil more than one role, I was having a joke at the expense of that point of view. I thought the tone and the end of my post indicated that.

My real opinion about this matter is things are fine as they are. I don't think toughness should be an autogrant, because that is inflationary and doesn't solve the next issue, which is 'Should I take it again?'.

I like that the people who want to take the feat can; others won't - of those, some will be good players who can cope without it, and other less experienced types are making a mistake that they and their fellow party members will continue to pay for.

Thanks.