Fighter being PWNed by magic - advice please

[Rockknocker]

My 1st character is now a level 14 Stalwart Defender (dwarf) (28pt build obviously) pure Fighter - stats below are without ship-buffs.
He is a S&B fellow, currently with 60 AC (with 'parrying') using dwarven axes (or Greataxes for higher DPS). He does not have stellar gear after 2 months of gaming - 55 physical resistance rating (70 with SD's Impr Def stance). He survives OK but needs to shield bash when surrounded by the more nasty beasties.

HOWEVER when there are 1 or 2 invokers or other arcanes around, he quickly gets turned into a small rotating silver shrine. Very quickly. One miss-step near a Blade Barrier and ... small shrine. His saves are currently F19/R12/W7 (F23/R14/W9 with Impr Def stance - 24/15/10 with parrying item).

My Question: So what are the tricks and tweaks for a no-Evasion tank to survive magical onslaughts once his ship-buff resistances run out?

[CheeseMilk]

Do you have a Resistance item? That can add up to 5 to your saves, and it stacks with the Parrying item.

Grab a stack of Heroism potions. +2 saves that stacks with resistance items and parrying.

Find room for a wisdom item. As a fighter, your will save is your weak point, so you want to do what you can to get it as high as possible to avoid Hold spells.

For elemental resistances, you can get potions of Resist 20 in the Twelve enclave. I recommend that every character that can't cast Resist Energy carry a stack of at least 10 of each element. They can really help against the no-save or limited save spells that hit you, like Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow, and persistent AOEs like Wall of Fire and Ice Storm.

Other than that, you'll have to learn how best to deal with enemy spells. Get out of AOEs like Wall of Fire, Ice Storm and Acid Rain as soon as you can, since they generally have no saving throw if you stay in them. Blade Barriers are different, they only damage you if you move through them (after the inital damage, anyway) and will not damage you if you're in the center of them.

Learn to target casters first, and use tactical feats on them. Arcanes generally have weak fort saves, so try stunning blow on them (if you don't have stunning blow, get it!). Divines are generally weak on reflex and dex skills, so use Trip on them.

You're at a level where it becomes quite difficult for most first-life melees to heal themselves, so a divine hireling can really help you out there, too. Preferably one with Death Ward, to avoid negative levels and instadeath spells you'll be running into.

[grgurius]

My Question: So what are the tricks and tweaks for a no-Evasion tank to survive magical onslaughts once his ship-buff resistances run out?

Take out caster first if possible. But most importantly be constantly on the move, break line of sight when ever possible, pull back and deal with what ever follows you first if you cant deal with the caster + melee mobs. Tactics feats work nice on casters too, considering that most of them have a low fort save.

[Kmnh]

Looks like a HP issue.

+6 con, toughness, greater false life. Do you have it all?

Did you take the toughness feat and enhancements?

Do you carry cure potions to drink and pad your HP until the cleric heals you?

Edit: There is a vendor in the Twelve that sells resist 20 potions. They are not cheap for a newbie, but it's better to drink some than to die over and over. Also, don't be afraid of asking fellow party members for resists. Almost all classes that can cast spells have resist energy on their spell list, and bards and rogues will usually carry wands.

[Daemoneyes]

Do you have a Resistance item? That can add up to 5 to your saves, and it stacks with the Parrying item.

Grab a stack of Heroism potions. +2 saves that stacks with resistance items and parrying.

Find room for a wisdom item. As a fighter, your will save is your weak point, so you want to do what you can to get it as high as possible to avoid Hold spells.

For elemental resistances, you can get potions of Resist 20 in the Twelve enclave. I recommend that every character that can't cast Resist Energy carry a stack of at least 10 of each element. They can really help against the no-save or limited save spells that hit you, like Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow, and persistent AOEs like Wall of Fire and Ice Storm.

Other than that, you'll have to learn how best to deal with enemy spells. Get out of AOEs like Wall of Fire, Ice Storm and Acid Rain as soon as you can, since they generally have no saving throw if you stay in them. Blade Barriers are different, they only damage you if you move through them (after the inital damage, anyway) and will not damage you if you're in the center of them.

Learn to target casters first, and use tactical feats on them. Arcanes generally have weak fort saves, so try stunning blow on them (if you don't have stunning blow, get it!). Divines are generally weak on reflex and dex skills, so use Trip on them.

You're at a level where it becomes quite difficult for most first-life melees to heal themselves, so a divine hireling can really help you out there, too. Preferably one with Death Ward, to avoid negative levels and instadeath spells you'll be running into.

this!

[Enoach]

One other item that can help survive against Spell Casters - A Spell Resistance Item. It is one more line of defense against spells that can disable you.

Other potions I would recommend - Protection from Evil, Elemental Protections (Acid, Fire, Lightning, Cold). These will help protect you from large burst damage.

Also start looking into Elemental Absorption - This is craftable. Designating a switchable spot to be able to slot the appropriate element can help mitigate a lot of damage

[Kysean]

Fighter defenses are very item based since you don't get any class abilities that can cover those weaknesses. You're gonna need to do some shopping or grinding to make yourself self sufficient, but it is very worth it. Here's what you should try to acquire:

You can start working towards most of these while you're leveling
-cloaks/rings with resist [element] 30 to hot swap to
-Mantle of the Worldshaper from Ruins of Threnal, absorbs 5 spells, can really get you out of a jam
-Silver Flame healing potions, these have serious drawbacks, but are the best self healing you'll have avaible.
-Resistance and Parrying items to boost saves.
-Cloak of Flames from Ghosts of Perdition, 3 clickies of fire shield: cold, can really save your ass in high fire damage environments.
-Visor of the Flesh Render Guards from Tangleroot, 7 minute Deathward clicky, get 2 or 3
-Silver Flame Talisman from the Necropolis series, deathblock and negative energy absorption
-Planar Gird and/or Draconic Necklace, both are 11 minute Greater Heroism clickies
-a fear immunity item
-potions of curse removal, disease removal, blindness removal, neutralize poison, and lesser restoration.

These should be long term goals
-Pale Lavender Ioun Stone, absorbs 50 spell levels, you'll be able to get one around level 20 pretty easily.
-elemental absorption items (Cannith crafted, Shroud crafted, named loot such as Firebreak), for those casters with extreme spell damage.
-Kundarak Delving Boots from Plane of Night raid, permanent freedom of movement prevents hold person and web from landing on you.

[CheeseMilk]

One other item that can help survive against Spell Casters - A Spell Resistance Item. It is one more line of defense against spells that can disable you.

Ah, yes, I had forgotten that this can actually be viable mid-game now.

There is an item enchantment called Warding, found on armour and shields. It gives you 22 Spell Resistance and Resistance +4 to saves, while Greater Warding gives 25R and Resist +5. If you can find an item in your level range with this enchantment (they drop as lootgen, and are quite underrated IMO, so they'll likely be fairly cheap in the AH) grab it, you'll have as good SR as drow or monks of the same level. +1 [item] of Greater Warding should be Min Level 10 or 12, iirc.

Edit: the SR from these items becomes less useful as you get into the higher levels, so you'll need to replace them later on (Superior Warding and Spell Proofing are the next steps up), but by then you'll be tougher, have better gear, and have more experience in dealing with stuff like this.

SR can also prevent those obnoxious debuffs like Crushing Despair and Bane. If you need to know how SR works, there are a great many threads on it in this forum, or send me a PM.

Additional Edit:Parrying can also be found in Greater (+2 insight saves/ac) and Superior (+4), and can be found on bracers and shields as well as weapons. It's the kind of thing that's good to have on all the time, and damage enchantments are preferable to defensive on your weapons, so keep an eye out for those as well.

[unbongwah]

Some general advice:

• Boost your HPs. By lvl 14 ideally you should have +6 CON, Toughness, and Greater False Life items and taken a +2 CON tome. You had to take Toughness feat to take SD, so at least a few APs spent on Toughness enhs is a good idea.
• Boost your Reflex saves. By now you should ideally have +6 DEX item, +5 Resistance item, +4 Morale bonus from Greater Heroism (Planar Gird), +1 luck item, +2 insight (Parrying) item. Also put a few APs into Dwarven Spell Defense, one of the perks of being a dwarven tank. EDIT: you could also use a couple of feats to boosts saves, like Lightning Reflexes and Luck of Heroes.
• Learn to dodge magic attacks. Ray spells can usually be sidestepped; other ranged spells can be avoided thru cover. Remember that Blade Barrier procs every time you cross the barrier, not from standing in the middle of it.
• Most of all, learn to take down casters ASAP! Stunning Blow & (Imp) Trip - with a decent investment in DCs - are your friends. EDIT: a good Striding item or Haste clickie / pots help too.

BTW, not that you asked, but here's what I consider to be a solid dwarven tank for the 28-pt newbie:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Female
(20 Fighter) 
Hit Points: 422
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 8
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    26
Dexterity            12                    14
Constitution         18                    22
Intelligence         12                    13
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 17
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III

Epic feats: Overwhelming Critical and epic Toughness (alternatives - GWS:Slash or Bulwark of Defense)

[jbleargh]

Basic things (resistance, parring, heroism, pots, etc) to boost your reflex saves (half damage from blade barrier, fireball, cometfall and many others) helps.

But, imho, the most important things are "kill/stun casters first", "don't agro that many mobs" and "know your limits".

In most quests is possible to slow down. Pull one or two mobs, kill, rinse and repeat. (ranged weapons are good for that).

Be also conscious of anything that can be used to avoid being in the enemy casters line of sight (doors, pillars, rocks, etc).

PS: You may want to look at the Beholder Plate Armour or any other from the Madness Packs. You can put +10 reflex or displacement guard on them.

[Hobgoblin]

also,

Are you soloing or grouping?

If you are grouping dont be afraid to ask for help, ie:

Hey caster, could i get a resist/gh/dw?

(note: the above is the right way to do it. the wrong way is: hey caster you noob, give a **** gh now!)

the other thing that i have not seen mentioned are two things, one which you can easily do and the other maybe not depending on your build.

An easier way if you have put points into umd is: buy ml: shield wand and use that. it will get rid of magic missle damage.

A slightly more expensive way is to get a clickie of shield of the ah.

hob

[squishwizzy]

My 1st character is now a level 14 Stalwart Defender (dwarf) (28pt build obviously) pure Fighter - stats below are without ship-buffs.
He is a S&B fellow, currently with 60 AC (with 'parrying') using dwarven axes (or Greataxes for higher DPS). He does not have stellar gear after 2 months of gaming - 55 physical resistance rating (70 with SD's Impr Def stance). He survives OK but needs to shield bash when surrounded by the more nasty beasties.

HOWEVER when there are 1 or 2 invokers or other arcanes around, he quickly gets turned into a small rotating silver shrine. Very quickly. One miss-step near a Blade Barrier and ... small shrine. His saves are currently F19/R12/W7 (F23/R14/W9 with Impr Def stance - 24/15/10 with parrying item).

My Question: So what are the tricks and tweaks for a no-Evasion tank to survive magical onslaughts once his ship-buff resistances run out?

Ok, the one thing that I haven't heard here yet is some of the problems you need to avoid when you are a tank. The only reason why I mention this is that I have a TR Pally Tank that I'me leveling now, and I myself am learning some of the ins and outs of the style.

First, a tank is really more valuable in a PUG / group setting. Solo? Tanks sorta suck. Yeah, they can absorb a lot of damage, but the problem is that casters have an unlimited spell pool, and going tank means that you've sacrificed DPS somewhere down the line (especially true on a first-life, 28-point build). So, in a solo setting, the one thing you really want to avoid is taking on more mobs than you can handle. Odd are that any encounter will have several melees and/or ranged enemies, and one or two casters. Since your damage output is stunted, once you get surrounded and have everying aggro-ed on you, the casters will follow and start zeroing in on you as well as the ranged enemies. That's probably where you are running into problems.

So, you need to change tactics somewhat. You'll need to draw only a few at a time, and kill them off. You want to avoid big battles. You can do this with Bluff, or by other means (noise pulling is another way).

Going after the casters first is sound advice if you are in a group. If you are solo, it's not that great of a move. The reason for this is that in most encounters, as you move through the quest, your melees will be up front, and the casters behind them, with archers taking up positions between the melee and the casters. So if you go after the casters first (assuming you know where the casters are), the only thing you'll do is aggro everything, which leads to being surrounded, which will turn you into a soul stone pretty fast. The casters will pull away, the melees will keep you in check, and the range toons will peel away your HP one-by-one. In some instances, the casters pulling away will draw other critters, and then you're really in deep doo doo. But again, this depends on whether you are solo or in a group.

Your other problem is self-healing casters. Because your DPS is degraded, you'll not be able to normally hit them hard enough, fast enough to prevent them from self-healing over and over again. They are basically the bane of most tanks. The only way to take these guys out is to have some reliable way of preventing them from casting spells, or somehow multiply your DPS numbers so that you can do more damage to them before they self-heal. This means either taking up THF or TWF feats and putting away the shield, or relying on Stun, Trip, or some other means to incapacitate the self-healing mob so that you can continue to hack away at them without them self-healing.

Now, this is not to take away from any of the advice that the others have given you. And maybe you've discovered some of this on your own - I dunno. But I suspect that there is a little more to your problems than just the spellcasters. Like I said, I'm wading through some of these issues myself. The difference is that my pally can self-heal, and a pure fighter can't.

Spell Resistance items are really helpful, as are Shield clickies. I recommend that as soon as you can, make a Min II greensteel item in Shroud which gives you Stoneskin (damage reduction doesn't suck). Another thing that helps is White Dragonscale armor in Gianthold, which adds a +5 shield bonus (if I recall correctly) - you are in the right level range for this. There is also the Giantcrafted armor, which adds DR (but is really, really ugly), but not much more.

Dragontouched armor - which you are approaching - allows three slots for effects (in addition to having a decent AC). You can go for a spell resistance of 22, and two other effects.

Another thing: what kind of fortification do you have? You should be in the area where you should be equipping a heavy fortification item to prevent crits. Which this may or may not affect the damage you're taking from casters, it will prevent taking crits from melees as they attack you while you are attacking the casters.

In addition to this, make sure you take along the some of the more standard cache of pots: Cure Serious Wounds, Remove Curse, Heroism, Neutralize Poison, Lesser Restore, Barkskin (+3) and so on. Any little bit helps. being that you are a first-life, 28-point pure fighter it is unlikely that you will be able to put enough points into UMD to make that skill even remotely effective.

Having an item that improves your dodge percentage, a Blur clickie, or an Incorperal item doesn't hurt either.

If I am wrong on any point, please someone correct me. I'm just as interested in the suggestions in this thread as the OP is.

[AbyssalMage]

From personal experience...

Gear - If you do not have access to ship buffs. Potions of <elemental resistance> are key. -10/20/30 damage can be the difference between life and death.

Heroism Clicky - +2 Saves + Parry (Which you already have) can be the difference between full and 1/2 damage.

Protection from Evil - Command is bad. Protect yourself from it.

Shield Clicky - MM (and its cousins) are bad. Protect yourself from it.

Deathward - Dieing instantly isn't a state you wanna be in. Wear it when you need it.

Healing Hireling - Being a soulstone isn't mocho (sp?)

Feats/Abilities - Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Trip, and Stun are all your friend. Use them!

Tactics - This is probably more important than any single thing posted above. Use corners, Bows, angles, terrain to your advantage. (1) One tactic at lower levels that I use is grabbing the melee and running a good distance backwards. By time I have finished them off, the casters have finally arrived just in time to be eliminated also. (2) Another tactic is to stay close but hide around a corner. They will tend to stand and cast a few times before moving to change their LOS. By this time my cool downs are over and I use my Feats/Abilities on the caster who just made himself available to attack. (3) Shoot an arrow at the ground. Most cluster's of NPC's have casters in the rear. They may never follow the melee who "heard" the arrow glance off the ground. If they did "hear" it, they will tend to begin casting. Time for you to make a tactical retreat until they are closer to be engaged. (4) Or there is the charge and slaughter the casters before they slaughter me approach.

Tactics is the most important thing.

[voxson5]

Mr OP,

Most of these responses are completely unrealistic for a lv 14 28pt first character (purple dragon knight necklace? Come on!).

A lot is also very sound advice too.
The twelve resist potions are good if you don't have ship buff equivalents or items.
Guild vendors can help with haste/rage/heroism/bark skin/restoration potions (again, if you are in a reasonably levelled guild.

I would look at incorporating a few tactics -
Sap is awesome for solo, useless in groups for the most part, but can help tie down a caster while you work on another
Cleave/great cleave/whirlwind and you become your own AoE
Stunning blow is great for incapacitating annoyances too, shorter duration than sap, but far more group friendly

Speed is also a huge boon vs casters, so striders/haste/korthos angers boots help greatly to both get to the casters and avoid spells.

Spell resistance work wonders in low-mid levels

In any case, read up on some of the suggestions on the wiki and have fun!!!

[unbongwah]

Deathward - Dieing instantly isn't a state you wanna be in. Wear it when you need it.

Deathward isn't wearable; Deathblock is. DW is preferable and comes on only one clickie AFAIK; but DB is necessary for beholders (or anything else with Dispel + Necro).

You should also look into some spell absorption gear, like Optic Nerves, MotW, and SF Talisman.

[AbyssalMage]

Deathward isn't wearable; Deathblock is. DW is preferable and comes on only one clickie AFAIK; but DB is necessary for beholders (or anything else with Dispel + Necro).

You should also look into some spell absorption gear, like Optic Nerves, MotW, and SF Talisman.

Oops, Deathblock

Thanks Unbongwah

[AzB]

Have you tried running away?

[Rockknocker]

Firstly, I am hugely impressed by the responses and the willingness to help a newb. While masticating the wealth of info, I also see that more info is needed:

# He is kind of a dwarf version of Unbongwah's 'Intimitank'. I did dwarf hoping it would help with saves and exotic Dw Axe.
# I am lucky to be in a high-level guild and therefore have ship-buffs. I tend to only do the "upper circuit" buffs, but now realise that the lesser-attribute 'heads' stack. But when I die .....
# I run in a 4-person party: an experienced wizard and artificer, plus my better-half who is a rogue and also a newb
# Indeed I took toughness (he is Stalwart Defender II). I also took various Toughness enhancements - Racial Toughness II / Fighter Toughness III.
# Also took Dwarf CON I - With full ship-buffs his CON is 28. At level 14, with SDII Improved Defensive Stance and full ship-buffs he has 404 HP
# No Greater False Life item yet
# With full ship-buffs his AC is 63. With the 20sec Fighter AC Boost III this goes to 78. By the time he gets moving (10% slower) it has warn off :-) Need to learn to activate it only as the baddies close in.
# Intimidate is currently 34
# With full ship-buffs his saves are F25/R16/W11 - he has Dwarven Spell Defence II (nods to Unbongwah) --> +2 saves
# He has no level 6 attribute gear .... yet? (STR +5; Dex +5; CON +4) Ouch .... no WIS + (makes a note) - STR 32 / DEX 21 / CON 28 / INT 14 / WIS 10 / CHA 8 :-(
# He has 74 000 plat
# Minimal crafting experience
# He is about to take Impr Shield Mastery and will then follow with Stunning Blow (had no improved trip/sunder), then doing the mobility-cleave-OC progression.
# I repeat - he is OK in melee (especially when I remember to use Armour Boost)

One more question: Is it really advisable to ignore the AB enhancements and only focus on damage?

Lots to absorb from these posts above. Once again -- muchly thanks --

RK

[FranOhmsford]

Firstly, I am hugely impressed by the responses and the willingness to help a newb. While masticating the wealth of info, I also see that more info is needed:


# With full ship-buffs his AC is 63. With the 20sec Fighter AC Boost III this goes to 78. By the time he gets moving (10% slower) it has warn off :-) Need to learn to activate it only as the baddies close in.


RK

No No No!
Stalwart Stance should NEVER be switched off!

Grab yourself some Expeditious Retreat clickies - Anger's Step from Sacrifices {Lvl 1 quest in Korthos} will give you 10 minutes worth - 2 of these will get you through most quests {so long as you stop at shrines to reset them}.

[Rockknocker]

No No No!
Stalwart Stance should NEVER be switched off!

Grab yourself some Expeditious Retreat clickies - Anger's Step from Sacrifices {Lvl 1 quest in Korthos} will give you 10 minutes worth - 2 of these will get you through most quests

OK, so Fran, what you are saying is "Live with the 10% slowness"; don't turn the stance off to get there quicker; instead use Expeditious Retreat to enhance speed? OK ... will do. In fact I never turn off SD.

I have just realised that Fighter Armour Class boost is an insta-effect and causes no pause to activate, so he can click it just as he gets to the nasty place.

*SIGH* - I expect there is a shed-load more to be learned if I could have missed that obvious tactic.