Is Paladin dps that bad? A build outline for critique

[Loriac]

So following a question in a different thread about high DPS, a number of people stated that paladins are low dps compared to other melee. I'm perfectly open to this idea (I don't have much recent experience of melee toons) but wanted to flesh out a build to get specific criticism on how the dps suffers vs other melee.

Human Pal 18 / Monk 2 (36pt), follower of the sovereign host

+3 Tomes to all Stats, all level ups to Str

Str 18 -> 27 @ L25
Dex 8 -> 11
Con 16 -> 19
Int 10 -> 13
Wis 8 -> 11
Cha 15 -> 18

Stats don't show enhancements and items.


Feats: 12 in total (7 + 1 human + 2 monk + 2 epic)

Power Attack, Cleave, G. Cleave, IC:Slash, OC (5 feats)
THF, ITHF, GTHF (3 feats)
Shield Mastery, Imp. Shield Mastery (2 feats)
Toughness
EWP: Dwarven Axe


Enhancements

DOS III including pre-reqs - 32 ap
Pal Cha I - 2ap
Extra action boost I - 2ap
Divine Might III - 6ap
Divine Sacrifice I - 1ap
Exalted smite I - 1 ap
Extra smite I - 1ap
Devotion IV - 10ap
Extra LoH III - 6ap

Human imp. recovery II - 6ap
Str I - 2ap
Con I - 4ap
Racial Toughness II - 3ap
Imp. Intim IV - 4 ap

Total ap spent: 80


The idea of this build is that you can use either a 2-handed slashing weapon (ideally eSoS, but any end-game 2h sword, axe or falchion would do) in dps mode, or a shield and dwarven axe in turtle dps mode.

The two EDs of choice would be LD (for dps) and US (for tanking)

Twists in LD: Endless LoH (tier 3); Legendary shield mastery (tier 2); primal scream (tier 1)

Twists in US: Momentum swing (tier 2); Lay waste (tier 3); extra damage boost (tier 2)

Note that if/when a new ED is released, max possible fate points goes to 22, and it would be possible to twist in extra haste boost as a tier 3 ability instead of extra damage boost

(My) analysis:

This build has maximum strength achieveable by a paladin, and includes for example the DoS +6 str stance bonus as well as primal scream when in dps mode (which I understand is usable at the same time as the DoS stance). Throw in divine might III, and you're getting broadly comparable damage to a non-kensai fighter as far as I can tell.

When using 2H weapons, this build has most of the dps feats etc you'd look to take, and the LD ED strengthens this. The twists in this mode give you self-sufficiency with endless LoH, and LSM is included in case you want a bit more defence but don't want to take the full dps hit of going back into US. Doublestrike is hitting 30%+ as you'll have zeal, ISM, LSM, and item bonuses (up to +9% if we include the artifact bonus coming in u17).

When in turtle mode in US, this build has the highest dps possible by using D Axe and having the high doublestrike mentioned. Additionally, you keep access to the lay waste / momentum swing procs from LD. Finally, the 30% damage boost isn't as good as the haste boost, but it adds some damage. When a 12th ED comes out, it can be upgraded to 30% haste boost twist.



Now, when I compare this build to say the juggernaut, from what I can see they do comparable melee damage (I suspect that this build should be slightly higher in fact due to DMIII, slightly higher strength, and smites thrown in) but it lacks burst capability via manyshot.

In return, the build offers far better survivability, as you can hit PRR of 60ish in LD w/o a shield, 100 or so with a shield, and even more in US tanking mode. You have blue bar CSW if you want, and regenerating LoH, which combined with lower incoming damage means you can sustain self-healing as well as a blue bar reconstruct.



So my question to the forum experts: How far behind is this build in dps terms when in pure DPS mode (LD + 2H weapon)?

[maddmatt70]

Where to begin? First, the swapping between shield and two hander is an old concept which is no longer vaild. For the current game I recommend either you go s&b all the time or two hander all the time. The reason for this is S&B has gained alot in terms of dps and if you go with S&B rather then two handers you have to sacrifice too much in terms of enhancement and destiny points when you swap between the two.

Second, Paladins will actually be close if not top of the heat for melee fighting the raid boss next update. I would recommend probably primal avatar (or fury of the wild) with Hunter of the Dead as your prestige enhancement for maximum boss dps if you go two hander all the time. That would give your build the most value at the end game next update.

If you go S&B all the time for an 18 paladin 2 monk I would probably swap between Legendary Dreadnaught and Unyielding Sentenial depending on circumstances/dungeons and obviously go with the defender prestige enhancement. That would give your build the most value at the end game next update as a S&B build.

For the two hander build make sure to maximize your smites. I would also prefer pure rather then the 2 monk splash for the good aligned weapon. For the two hander build have all the thf feats, cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical.

[FengXian]

You might want to replace monk with fighter for tower shield proficiency (and, well, t1 haste boost and +1 str).

The reason is that you'll often want to wear heavy armor for PRR/AC anyway, and with primal, fire shield and other absorption/resistance options we have now, you can mitigate elemental damage pretty efficienty even w/o evasion (plus your reflex should be high anyway). This might change in U17 tho, and I actually hope evasion becomes more relevant, but can't tell for now.

I think you'll want the THF line and OC regardless, either you choose THF or S&B. On my fighter I usually stay S&B, but I do use eSoS either when party has good CC or when there aren't many physical threats (i.e. mostly caster mobs).

I'm glad to hear there's someone who thinks paladin dps is not as dead as it's been said recently^^ I agree.

[Krelar]

This build has maximum strength achieveable by a paladin, and includes for example the DoS +6 str stance bonus as well as primal scream when in dps mode (which I understand is usable at the same time as the DoS stance).

Keep in mind that in order to use primal scream you have to drop out of defender stance, use the scream, then go back into stance.

[Alternative]

wanted to do this for some time, this (and the other one) thread finally motivated me enough

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...22#post4877522

This is an 18/2 pal/ftr with feats the same as listed in the OP (bastard sword instead of daxe). No relevant past lives and no dps twists used (no wild weapons/sense weakness) The dps IS lower than that of fighter or another multi TR fancy build, but does it matter as much as people claim? Well, you can guess my opinion.

edit: One more thing, 2 ftr actually gives tower shield proficiency and full plate gives more PRR too. Evasion, while nice to have, isn't that crucial on ~1k hp character. Cormyrian red with resists, fire/elec absorb trinkets, and fire shield scrolls/clicky are good enough, can stand in EE velah breath with all this.

[Loriac]

Where to begin? First, the swapping between shield and two hander is an old concept which is no longer vaild. For the current game I recommend either you go s&b all the time or two hander all the time. The reason for this is S&B has gained alot in terms of dps and if you go with S&B rather then two handers you have to sacrifice too much in terms of enhancement and destiny points when you swap between the two.

Second, Paladins will actually be close if not top of the heat for melee fighting the raid boss next update. I would recommend probably primal avatar (or fury of the wild) with Hunter of the Dead as your prestige enhancement for maximum boss dps if you go two hander all the time. That would give your build the most value at the end game next update.

If you go S&B all the time for an 18 paladin 2 monk I would probably swap between Legendary Dreadnaught and Unyielding Sentenial depending on circumstances/dungeons and obviously go with the defender prestige enhancement. That would give your build the most value at the end game next update as a S&B build.

For the two hander build make sure to maximize your smites. I would also prefer pure rather then the 2 monk splash for the good aligned weapon. For the two hander build have all the thf feats, cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical.

Thanks for the feedback.

On specifics, if the build was to go purely S+B, what enhancements and ED spend actually changes? I.e. -

The US spend assumes S+B 100% of the time (otherwise why be in US in the first place), whilst on the LD side there is nothing shield specific apart from the LSM twist anyway (which is taken in this build) [I could see this twist being changed to something else, but not sure what that would be?]. Dwarven waraxe is chosen as preferred weapon instead of bastard sword because of the synergy with the LD tree, and if using 2H weapons its easy enough to switch to a drow greataxe or epic antique greataxe without moving any points in that tree.

I take from your last paragraph that you'd spec a 2H build for smites, but from my enhancement breakdown the only obvious ap that could be moved is the 4ap spent on intim IV [assuming one remains a DoS]. Alternatively, devotion could be knocked down as could extra LoH, but that isn't dependent on being 2H only (i.e. the S+B could do the same to improve smites at the cost of blue bar healing).

RE: next update's raid boss, I haven't played on Lammania, so thats interesting to know. If a paladin built for HotD and took FotW, how would dps stack up in other content? I.e. when mobs were not so undead heavy? To be honest I'd prefer to understand how the build would work against broad content rather than gearing up for one particular type of situation, and if that is a few % loss of dps I don't see that as a huge loss. In that sense, DoS seems like a more generalised PRE whereas HotD is quite specific to one class of enemy mob (unless I'm misunderstanding something).

I agree that having good aligned weapons is useful, but assuming the right gear, its not necessary I think? eSoS with good slotted, or eAG both break good DR (in the case of eAG you'd break pretty much any relevant DR regardless).

The 2 monk meanwhile gives you 2 additional feats, which allows for both the full THF line and ISM; otherwise, going pure Pal you'd have to pick either S+B or 2H

You might want to replace monk with fighter for tower shield proficiency (and, well, t1 haste boost and +1 str).

The reason is that you'll often want to wear heavy armor for PRR/AC anyway, and with primal, fire shield and other absorption/resistance options we have now, you can mitigate elemental damage pretty efficienty even w/o evasion (plus your reflex should be high anyway). This might change in U17 tho, and I actually hope evasion becomes more relevant, but can't tell for now.

I think you'll want the THF line and OC regardless, either you choose THF or S&B. On my fighter I usually stay S&B, but I do use eSoS either when party has good CC or when there aren't many physical threats (i.e. mostly caster mobs).

I'm glad to hear there's someone who thinks paladin dps is not as dead as it's been said recently^^ I agree.

Thank you for your feedback too. Some thoughts on the monk splash:

You can always wear heavy armor if you don't need evasion, so 2 monk gives options rather than restricts them. A 2 fighter splash would give an extra 1 Str, which is nice but not as useful as situational evasion if you want it. The T1 haste boost is probably not as good as the 30% damage boost you'd twist in from LD (and this would change to haste boost once a 12th ED is released). Essentially, I think I rather have evasion and be limited to heavy shields, because whilst tower shields give more PRR, they also cap dodge more severely so it may end up being a wash.

I agree on the feats (OC line, THF line, ISM line). I think they add a lot of flexibility, and you'd take all 3 chains to get maximal S+B dps (which is important for hate generation in any case). The main reason for me putting this outline together was that I want to understand what it is that paladins lack dps wise. If they're a few % behind fighters and barbs, I'm fine with that, but if they're significantly behind then obviously its a different kind of choice being made (i.e. you can either be a tank paladin, or a dps something else).

Keep in mind that in order to use primal scream you have to drop out of defender stance, use the scream, then go back into stance.

Thanks, I didn't know the exact mechanics for this, as I don't have a DoS paladin currently.

Are there better twists than primal scream at tier 1 or 2 (to fit within the 18 fate point max budget) for dps? I'm not wedded to the primal scream idea, and perhaps to pick up on one of MaddMatt's points, endless smiting from US (tier 2) might provide more sustainable dps for the build?

Edit:

wanted to do this for some time, this (and the other one) thread finally motivated me enough

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...22#post4877522

This is an 18/2 pal/ftr with feats the same as listed in the OP (bastard sword instead of daxe). No relevant past lives and no dps twists used (no wild weapons/sense weakness) The dps IS lower than that of fighter or another multi TR fancy build, but does it matter as much as people claim? Well, you can guess my opinion.

The main reason I picked dwarven axe is the synergy with headsman's chop in LD. Adding a further +1 to crit multiplier on 19-20 seems too good to pass up, plus if you get lucky and find say a duergar waraxe, you have a very nice weapon that beats out bastard sword easily on mobs without DR.

Again, I'd really like to understand what causes this build to have much lower dps than a fighter, because I'm honestly not seeing any major differences. I think the paladin has more clickies to sustain dps (DMIII, smites, zeal etc) but provided you use those, where specifically is the fighter beating out the paladin?

[boredman]

Between a fighter and a paladin dps the levels where you are going to notice more the dps diference between both are at high heroic (lvls 15-20) because the fighter has kensai III with weapon specialization damage + crit threat range and damage plus haste boost/damage/surge uses while the paladin just get +6 str from stance and some from dm and ds and smites (at lower levels enemies dont have much hp so if you are geared will not see much diference)

Once you reach epic destinies and get enhancements and twists that dps diference goes down (I would say 10-20% or less depending on your gear) Fighters still have the advantage to have tactics like stunning blow, imp trip and sunder and have more haste boost and damage uses. The problem at epics is for paladins that dont have LD unlocked yet and have to level through US before getting LD enhancements, in that case will feel much more the dps diference.

But a geared paladin with epic destinies and twists will do very decent damage in my opinion (I prefer LD destiny if going defender prestige for most questing and Fury with Hotd or kotc for some raids)

[unbongwah]

The reason for this is S&B has gained alot in terms of dps and if you go with S&B rather then two handers you have to sacrifice too much in terms of enhancement and destiny points when you swap between the two.

What exactly would he be sacrificing? I.e., how would the enh & Fate pts differ for a S&B-only build vs THF+S&B build?

[boredman]

What exactly would he be sacrificing? I.e., how would the enh & Fate pts differ for a S&B-only build vs THF+S&B build?

I think he is trying to say that in S&B mode you can still keep a decent ac and prr for tanking and dps at the same time in LD with the right twists while if you go THF in LD destiny will lose effective ac and prr, making not worth to keep the same twists as in S&B mode.

[maddmatt70]

Just some general responses to your comments. For starters HOTD or KOTC depending on the update are better dps options then Defender which if you went as an S&B with a two handed option you miss out on. This next update has an undead raid boss so HOTD is the winner from a dps perspective. Also max smites from a dps perspective with endless smiting twist is essential for pally dps. So you would lose out on that because of this multi purpose build. Pure is better dps option which again you lose out on with the tank aspects of your build.

I actually prefer 18 pally 2 monk because of the evasion and high saves, but I feel to best take advantage of that you would need feats like dodge, mobility and spring attack so you can get your dodge up there so I lean towards 18 pally 2 fighter because of you feat choices.

When a player goes with a two hander their defense is lousy and with the twists and all and destiny swapping I just flat hate the playability of marginal dps increase for slow play and losing defense. You can generate a lot of offense by intimidating mobs and momementum swing and cleave and you can take the damage to boot with the mobs you gather.

[Alternative]

The main reason I picked dwarven axe is the synergy with headsman's chop in LD. Adding a further +1 to crit multiplier on 19-20 seems too good to pass up, plus if you get lucky and find say a duergar waraxe, you have a very nice weapon that beats out bastard sword easily on mobs without DR.

That's great, I did not intend to convince anyone to use BS over DA, just pointed out this slight difference in my feat selection. I actually use Celestia in S&B mode as it gets glancing blows if you have bastard sword prof, and swing esos when not tanking. If you intend to always fight s&b rather than swap to 2hander then yeah, dwarven axe is definitely better.

[SilverHeals]

Question for OP, what are your thoughts on doing twf?

My paladin uses twf and competes with at level barbs and fighters.

The build is 12/paladin 6/fighter 2/rogue. (currently level 17)

The damage of twf is probably about 3/4 of twf(as i hit 65 average twf, 85-90 thf) but the speed is much greater. Most people say paladins have "low" dps but they have just have to use more active bonuses such as divine might and smites. The damage from these is very nice, but the limits are short.

Divine Might - 1 minute of extra damage(not very long but is helpful)

Smite - Approximately 2 seconds lost of dps but you use your cha mod to add damage

The build I use mainly is twf khopeshes with divine might & haste

In my opinion, you would be best going twf with paladins for dps. They make up for the lost of damage with the speed they can accumulate. Khopeshes do not have to be the weapons, you can use any proficiency and even go unarmed for even greater speed. So in terms of dps, it IS damage per second after all, so if you're doing
60 damage with thf(example numbers) you would do 600 damage in 10 seconds.
45 damage with twf(1.5x speed) = 67.5 damge vs 60 damage or 675 damage vs 600 damage every 10 seconds
32 damage with unarmed(2.2x speed(air stance)) = 70.4 or 704 damage every 10 seconds

The speed above may be wrong, but it shows how comparable dps will be against thf. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

If anyone can check the numbers and fix the multipliers would show the real dps.

[Krelar]

Smite - Approximately 2 seconds lost of dps but you use your cha mod to add damage

Take at least the first tier of exalted smite enhancements.

Drag these to your hot bar instead of regular smite evil (This is important it doesn't change automatically).

Enjoy smites with no silly animation slowing your dps.

[Loriac]

edit: One more thing, 2 ftr actually gives tower shield proficiency and full plate gives more PRR too. Evasion, while nice to have, isn't that crucial on ~1k hp character. Cormyrian red with resists, fire/elec absorb trinkets, and fire shield scrolls/clicky are good enough, can stand in EE velah breath with all this.

You can still wear full plate on the monk version, you just lose evasion whilst its equipped. As such, the monk gives you the option for either evasion or PRR w/ heavy armor. The only real loss is tower shield proficiency, which is 5PRR so almost worthless once you get to 140+ PRR anyway.

Also, on the dwarven axe vs. bastard sword, both proc glancing blows. They used to be very similar weapons (crit profiles are mathematically equal) but with the new LD headsman's chop ability, the axe pulls ahead. Not saying bastard sword is a bad choice, but from a pure dps perspective the d.axe is ahead when in LD.

Question for OP, what are your thoughts on doing twf?

My paladin uses twf and competes with at level barbs and fighters.

Please note, I'm no expert on melee builds - its been a long time since I dabbled in them, as I usually play arcanes or more recently artificers.

Having said that, the key issue with TWF for a paladin is the multiple attribute dependency as far as I understand it. Furthermore (though opinions seem to vary on this) the new EDs seem better suited to THF. Finally, when I looked at the feat list for 2H weapons and S+B set ups, there is actually very high synergy between the two if you use a bastard sword or d.axe for the glancing blows.

With TWF I think you are taking a tanking role off the table (even if its just off-tank rather than a main EE tank). I guess though that some would argue that you have to make a choice one way or the other and specialise for it. I'm sympathetic to that point of view, and I think it requires personal experience of EE content in both roles to appreciate whats needed (which I don't have, hence this thread to try and thrash out fact from received opinion that 'paladin dps is low').

[Loriac]

Just some general responses to your comments. For starters HOTD or KOTC depending on the update are better dps options then Defender which if you went as an S&B with a two handed option you miss out on. This next update has an undead raid boss so HOTD is the winner from a dps perspective. Also max smites from a dps perspective with endless smiting twist is essential for pally dps. So you would lose out on that because of this multi purpose build. Pure is better dps option which again you lose out on with the tank aspects of your build.

First part, I take your word for it having not tried the beta content.

On the max smites though, I think you're doing my ap spend a slight injustice - as I pointed out, I spec'd for devotion and more LoH, which could be cut back to spend more smite enhancements. Doing so wouldn't cut into sword and board capabilities. I also agree that endless smiting could be twisted in, instead of primal scream. 18 fate points allows 1 T3 and 2x T2 abilities, so you can have endless LoH, LSM, and endless smites all twisted on a LD destiny choice. As primal scream doesn't play well with DoS per another commenter's post, this might be a better choice anyway.

You're also saying pure is better dps, but I'm not seeing why. With pure, you'd take exactly the same feats, but you wouldn't have shield mastery and improved shield mastery from the monk levels. So your 2H weapons are equivalent, but your S+B dps is substantially worse. Unless you're referring to the capstone bonus damage, which doesn't look all that substantial unless I'm missing something. Also, I don't think dr breaking is a huge thing - red slots allow you to bypass good anyway, you have the choice of epic AG if you want to break most things anyway, and arti buffs can be assumed in most raids.

I actually prefer 18 pally 2 monk because of the evasion and high saves, but I feel to best take advantage of that you would need feats like dodge, mobility and spring attack so you can get your dodge up there so I lean towards 18 pally 2 fighter because of you feat choices.

Thats a fair statement, but in a worst case scenario your dodge will still be higher than a full plate build even without those feats (due to dodge capped by MDB), and we're talking a difference of a few AC and a few PRR on light armor. In other words, those feats are in no way necessary for the evasion build, and as noted you can still wear heavy armor for those times that you absolutely want the highest AC and PRR.

When a player goes with a two hander their defense is lousy and with the twists and all and destiny swapping I just flat hate the playability of marginal dps increase for slow play and losing defense. You can generate a lot of offense by intimidating mobs and momementum swing and cleave and you can take the damage to boot with the mobs you gather.

Its a situational choice though, and quest / raid dependent. "Marginal dps" is a very woolly term, are you really saying that a 2H build is only marginally ahead of S+B? Also, a paladin 2H build is still quite defensive capable from the DoS stance even without a shield.



Having said all that, I think I do see where you're coming from. While I've assumed LD for dps, you're assuming FotW for dps. FotW plays against DoS PRE stances, hence the shift to HotD or KotC. And I agree with this assessment; if FotW is the preferred dps ED, then the build above won't work as listed.

From your comments on HotD + FotW being top dps in the u17 raid however, and noting that HotD is adding at best a vorpal ability to the paladin, this equates to 5damage per swing (assuming you're fighting mobs > 1000hp, so you get the 100hp hit when you vorpal once every 20 swings). I honestly cannot believe that this is sufficient to put the paladin at the top of the heap unless the base paladin is already doing broadly equivalent damage to other melees anyway, which is kind of where I came in with my OP.

[Purkilius]

I would try to fit in maximize or empower heal and quicken.

I was actually deciding to tr into a very similar build as yours but I was going to splash it more 15 pal 2 monk 2 fighter 1 wiz but decided to wait for the enhancement pass and test out the druid instead.