Highest DPS Self Sufficient Melee?

[Symerith]

My challenge for you is to actually post a build instead of just claims.. Good luck to you.

My eyes hurt.

You do realise that Haek posted his build?

So you have done nothing but criticize his build when he

• LEVELED his build to 20
• PLAYED his build through epic content to 25
• TESTED his build through challenging things such as lvl 30 challenges with 1000+ score
• MODIFIED his build after said tests to a much more powerful version being the ranged splash one
• TESTED his build again: EEDA, videos, screenshots, 2 man hard CITW
• POSTED his build after all of the above, with facts and answers to the many questions in his thread

And you have the boldness to ask him to "actually post his build instead of claims"?

Let me finish this by saying we have 12 Juggernauts now in Mitis Mors among 14 members (and I think a guild that has 9 completionists and vets knows the difference between a bad and good builds).
Not to mention the countless other vets accross the servers who rolled a Jug alt or TRed one of their toons into one.

[Vellrad]

There has been some talk of turning the dragonmarks into one feat and using enhancements for upgrades.

Yes, we was supposed to get this 6+ months ago.

[WruntJunior]

My eyes hurt.

You do realise that Haek posted his build?

So you have done nothing but criticize his build when he

• LEVELED his build to 20
• PLAYED his build through epic content to 25
• TESTED his build through challenging things such as lvl 30 challenges with 1000+ score
• MODIFIED his build after said tests to a much more powerful version being the ranged splash one
• TESTED his build again: EEDA, videos, screenshots, 2 man hard CITW
• POSTED his build after all of the above, with facts and answers to the many questions in his thread

And you have the boldness to ask him to "actually post his build instead of claims"?

Let me finish this by saying we have 12 Juggernauts now in Mitis Mors among 14 members (and I think a guild that has 9 completionists and vets knows the difference between a bad and good builds).
Not to mention the countless other vets accross the servers who rolled a Jug alt or TRed one of their toons into one.

Pretty much anyone who's seen Haek's version in action has at least given it serious thought. :P

Well lets see an actual build posting instead of abstract claims this this purpoted dps build makes. My comments are that there is still a place for the simple characters providing that they do more dps of course and that is in raids. That being said simple builds should take measures for self sufficiency and defense or at least be able to swap to self sufficiency/defense gear.

Regarding ranged builds I have played 6 different ranged characters at cap in the 7 years that I have played DDO. These ranged characters have either ranged all the time or melee and ranged in more of a burst dps style. The one fault I have with all the melee/ranged builds that are posted on the forums and this includes your build is that none of them take into account the time spent swapping between ranged and melee combat modes and how that means a DPS Loss. There is the actually swapping weapons, but also going from ranged attack to closing to melee a mob and in addition losing out on improved precise shot during that time frame. That is always just glossed over. Let's see you be the first to actual record that dps loss and acknowledge yeah I do not play in some imaginary gaming environment. I currently have a 12 fighter 7 monk 1 artificer monkcher that yeah ranges 90% of the time.


Soloing is inefficient in nearly all aspects of DDO; and hence, not an accomplishment. Soloing is a waste of time as it is in general an inefficient means of advancing a character. Solo EEDA was almost certainly not done as fast as a 6 person group could do hence an outright waste of time


I do not waste my time on inefficient things. My guild does not either unless they find it more efficient to do soloing activities - like farming for gear because it is inefficient to get a group together for some reason or other. The only inefficient thing I do is post on the forums.


I prefer in game challenges like we worked as a group to beat a difficult quest - not made up challenges. If Turbine wants to create a challenge with a reward that is worthy I will try my hand at that. I have done challenges in the past like compete in the old shroud speed records a number of years ago, but what I found upon reflection is I and my group got nothing for it. DDO is an MMO not a sport or contest where you can prevail and earn a prize of one sort or another. My hats off to the revenants on khyber for being quality players, but I never understood their mission of achievement. One of my guildies who was in both my guild and theirs liked the concept so the best I could come up with was making him or others happy could make me happy as someone who would often lead raids and quests if we tried for a challenge. All and all a very empty pursuit if you ask me in an MMO.


Why because first of all there has been no posting of a build just I can do all these things and claims about massive dps and etc. with no foundations or even an actual build post.

Awesome redefinition project, maddmatt70...I never realized a fairly fast-paced completion of EE DA (less than 40 minutes...compared to the hour it'd take at least to get a good group + complete it) wasn't an accomplishment. Please, tell me more about how soloing difficult content as proof of (A) how good a player is and (B) how good their build is is not at all an achievement. Furthermore, if any of your ideal builds were as powerful as you claimed, we would've seen another melee completion of EE DA by now (if by nothing else, a paladin, as you're claiming they're altogether better than a Juggernaut)...strangely, there's not one.

In summation, you're the one making baseless claims - the Juggernaut is a proven build that you're trying to rip down without a platform on which to stand, especially as you're not backing up your claims (swapping between ranged and melee, for example, doesn't cost you 20% of your DPS...that's just a stupid claim, as the gain from manyshot is so large that it's still a large net gain).

[Viisari]

Wasn't meaning to suggest it was an easy thing to run EE HoBC, nor that you played badly in the video. Just pointing out what I've found on my own toons, i.e. scroll healing is painfully slow if you are used to blue bar healing.

Nah I didn't take it like that either. Was just that explaining that with certain things done running around is not really required in most places. But ya, of course scroll healing does carry some weaknesses compared to other forms of healing.

Also, I think maddmatt should probably start playing the game instead of his mouth, he obviously has very little idea what he's talking about here, as wrunt said, many who've seen the build in action either have already rolled one or have considered rolling one.

[emptysands]

Yes, we was supposed to get this 6+ months ago.

And it might be another 6 months...

Buggy enhancements and buggy EDs would have been a mess. Hopefully they make it a priority after any eGH fixes to finally complete the enhancement updates.

[Dawnsfire]

Yes, we was supposed to get this 6+ months ago.

The enhancement pass is supposed to take care of this. I'm sure that will happen someday

[Vellrad]

The enhancement pass is supposed to take care of this. I'm sure that will happen someday

Right after promissed vorpal crafting.

[NaturalHazard]

The better question is:
What the f*** fatesinger have to offer to melee bard!?

The only interesting thing I find in this ED are: echoes of the ancestor and reign.

yeah I kinda wanted to try the fighter ED on my 2hf bard, maybe switch to human and multiclass some fighter in, the fatesinger might be nice for my spellsinger who cc's and heals but not sure if that type of char with max charisma but no dps is any use now? I got that epic rapier that uses CHA to hit stuff and a variety of other weapons and stuff, when i actually hit stuff I would do it more to debuff them with destruction and other stuff.

[Dieterstrife]

Halfling 12 monk 7 druid 1 rogue UMD Fatal Harrier "Storm of a Thousand Fists" Style build but take the halfling dragonmarks and go dark monk for extra dps sexiness. Honestly I have no idea, Juggernaut looks interesting but I so desperately hate Warforged that I could never play one (I'm a hypocrite, I have a wf sorc)

And saying Juggernaut is higher dps because of Manyshot is like basing someone's total dps on their highest crit. Using that logic, a KoTC Paladin in Fury with an adrenaline smite and an easy to aquire tier 1 cleaver would have excellent dps simply because he pulled off a 6k crit this one time at band camp.

Any build can get manyshot. Hell there's a rogue idea someone posted a few days ago, 18 rogue 1 ranger 1 monk stunning fist based rogue (not your average rogue, I guess. really not average) that incorporated manyshot and Fury for single target high burst dps (honestly thinking about doing a similar build, just because it looks so fun). Proof anyone can do it, though not exactly efficiently.

[Loriac]

Halfling 12 monk 7 druid 1 rogue UMD Fatal Harrier "Storm of a Thousand Fists" Style build but take the halfling dragonmarks and go dark monk for extra dps sexiness. Honestly I have no idea, Juggernaut looks interesting but I so desperately hate Warforged that I could never play one (I'm a hypocrite, I have a wf sorc)

And saying Juggernaut is higher dps because of Manyshot is like basing someone's total dps on their highest crit. Using that logic, a KoTC Paladin in Fury with an adrenaline smite and an easy to aquire tier 1 cleaver would have excellent dps simply because he pulled off a 6k crit this one time at band camp.

Any build can get manyshot. Hell there's a rogue idea someone posted a few days ago, 18 rogue 1 ranger 1 monk stunning fist based rogue (not your average rogue, I guess. really not average) that incorporated manyshot and Fury for single target high burst dps (honestly thinking about doing a similar build, just because it looks so fun). Proof anyone can do it, though not exactly efficiently.

But thats the point - the base concept for the juggernaut is the tukaw, and because arti offers free ranged class feats, you can have both good melee and good ranged ability along with arti buffs and blue bar reconstruct.

On almost any other build, you either don't get full healing capabilities (i.e.you have to scroll heal) or you can't afford the feats for both ranged and decent melee.

[Cetus]

The efficiency of your build has less to do with your character split and a lot more with how you play it

My main character is a pure fighter, and I would never call it a "basic" build by any stretch. After playing and trying to perfect fighters for almost 7 years, I'm still working and re-working it to optimize it for EE content. In my opinion, the blitz build, 18fighter/2rogues, and stalwarts were'nt appealing to me over a pure kensei because the character is primarily designed to massacre mobs on EE, and those alternatives simply didn't show that they can do it better with my playstyle. Pure kensei does that well, but I don't have the self sufficiency of a recon, saves in the 60's, or the hitpoint pool of a defender. Thats the tradeoff, and understanding these limitations makes the builds performance noticeable.

Haek's build, on the other hand, does an amazing job because the person behind the computer knows what he's doing, not because the build itself is amazing or terrible. A great player is able to synergize their preferred attributes on their character, and execute them as close to flawlessly as they can. He has the better surviviability through recon, great saves, evasion, and a nice mix of ranged damage (which, I actually have been playing with during the past several weeks on my fighter ) but less full blown melee damage. And thats the tradeoff in the other direction.

I've been running as many as 2 EE citw a day, often amounting to 6-7 runs a week. And one major thing I notice now, is that the party makeup has absolutely zero predictable power on DPS output, until you actually fight the first mistress or bebelith, or get the party on lolth. This suggests that playstyle has orders of magnitude more importance than build makeup on the outcome.

EDIT: Also, in EE citw I actually prefer LD to fury because I have run dozens of runs trying to perfect the points where I can sustain a blitz. Its incredibly difficult to achieve reliable blitzing in there, and we never bother to cooperate on behalf of one blitzer, but I've been reasonably successful - and that is entirely a player quality.

[slimkj]

In fact so good that even a paladin probably should try to fit MS.

Exploiter! ;P

[slimkj]

He has the better surviviability through recon, great saves, evasion, and a nice mix of ranged damage (which, I actually have been playing with during the past several weeks on my fighter ) but less full blown melee damage. And thats the tradeoff in the other direction.

Well summarised. That's why I've decided to jump on the copycat bandwagon and build my own modded version; the build meets a lot of my preferred playstyle goals - steady DPS and good defense - as we're primarily a lowman guild who like to stretch ourselves from time to time.

[WruntJunior]

Well summarised. That's why I've decided to jump on the copycat bandwagon and build my own modded version; the build meets a lot of my preferred playstyle goals - steady DPS and good defense - as we're primarily a lowman guild who like to stretch ourselves from time to time.

This is pretty similar to my rationale for building it: a build that accomplishes my goals for a specific character in a better way than its current build (was a human FvS 18/Ftr 2...Juggernaut fits the self-sufficient THF melee better, and doesn't stick me with more than 2 levels of my second-least-favorite-class (paladin)). I think the build is so popular now in part because it does that for multiple people (and in part because Haek is insane, doing things like soloing EE DA in less than 40 minutes).

[slimkj]

This is pretty similar to my rationale for building it: a build that accomplishes my goals for a specific character in a better way than its current build (was a human FvS 18/Ftr 2...Juggernaut fits the self-sufficient THF melee better, and doesn't stick me with more than 2 levels of my second-least-favorite-class (paladin)). I think the build is so popular now in part because it does that for multiple people (and in part because Haek is insane, doing things like soloing EE DA in less than 40 minutes).

Heh, we play pretty alike I think. I was missing a THF char for one, and I was bored with my Draconic one trick pony life, so I TRed my long time trusty take her first into new content Sorc into one.

Yeah this build ticks a lot of boxes so it'll appeal to a lot of people. Good work, Haek.

[angiaks]

Aside from monks, I tend to solo a lot of EH/EE content on my Kensei/AA in Shiradi (for the cc).. barb fast healing keeps me up generally and umd for scroll heals. Ideally, I'm kiting / dodging with displacement constantly and using my bow to CC... the build is in my sig