Highest DPS Self Sufficient Melee?

[scoobmx]

One of the trade-offs is the amount of focus vs. simplicity.

Pure builds *work*. You can screw up your feats, but if you go Barb 20 and take reasonable feats with reasonable stats, it will work predictably well.

Don't forget half the cost in a multiclass is the opportunity cost of the decision making and planning. If you use one someone else planned, they did that "work" for you. You still have to level it. It may still have weak spots as it levels in trying to achieve what you want it to achieve, etc.

Yes, but IMO the time spent learning how to play a more complex build should never be factored into its balance. Balance should only consider each build played to its maximum potential by its best possible player. Otherwise you end up getting what are known as 'noob builds' or 'noob characters' that are largely there as training wheels for newer players. In Counter-Strike for example, shotguns often took this status, but even they have situational uses by the top players. Here, the situational use for noob builds would only be by players 'too stupid' to use complex builds.

I'm very bitter that this ended up happening to the Warforged race, as I paid real money for it only to find that more and more it is become that 'noob race' that is good for leveling but has minimal impact at epic elite endgame. They are a 1-trick race in which every EE viable build basically revolves about reconstruct. In every build that does not use reconstruct, some other race will be stronger than Warforged. But since almost nobody plays arcanes as a repair role, that makes arcanes the only viable classes for the race, which is what you see in this 'Juggernaut' build (Artificer). Try juggernaut without reconstruct and the whole thing breaks down - better to go helf.

[Symerith]

IMO either you underestimate the damage output of pure/simple builds, or there is a fundamental flaw in the game. If a multiclassed build has better DPS, better survivability, and better utility than a pure build (say, pure barb in this case, but also applies to maybe pure ranger), then why would anyone ever make a pure build? Multiclassing is supposed to have both gains and losses in a balanced game. So in the case that something is severely, fundamentally wrong with the game, my suggestion would be to improve the contribution of capstones, or more heavily backload the enhancements.

Pure/simple builds have always been a "start" place for newer players. I have never played D&D nor care for it.
One of the best part of this game is coming up with multiclassed builds by taking the best of several classes.

Take a look at the most important builds through the evolution of DDO (i'm forgetting a lot, just giving some examples):
- the monster
- tukaw
- helves angel
- monkchers
- juggernaut
- blitz
- emerald
- grandmaster of death
- solar phoenix
- godhand
- ...

All of these are multiclassed toons.

People that have played for a while like Haek and I, both with completionist, try to max out our builds. It is only fair that with so much time and dedication we can achieve multiclassed builds that are better in many aspects than basic builds. Keep in mind those builds wouldn't work without the lives/gear.

An example: nick's grandmaster of death. A 32pt build won't be able to reach enough DCs or to hit so for that person a pure evoker OR melee divine giving up on DCs will be better. But for a completionist like nick with triple wiz/sorc/ftr/monk lives, isn't it fair that he can make the build work?

[voodoogroves]

Not just the learning ... the execution as well.

I know I rode BB through the last levels on my Arti. Some content was far easier with it, for sure. If I LR into a Juggernaut, that heart has a cost, etc. People joke about how heroic is simple, it takes time, etc. There's a reason Carpone does his past lives as a 15 Sorc and uses a greater heart ... they may be "easy" but they aren't "automatic".

[Purkilius]

To the OP:

At the end of the day what do you find fun to play?

[Arkat]

Don't mind maddmatt70, his hobby is to come into threads and dump all over any build he didn't make himself. He wouldn't know an EE build if one cleaved him upside the head. He's Snootch lite.

Thank God you didn't call ME "Snootch lite." I don't know WHAT I would have done!

[cdr]

Thank God you didn't call ME "Snootch lite." I don't know WHAT I would have done!

You're more Arkat lite.

[Arkat]

You're more Arkat lite.

Hah! I'm fooling you at least!

[Bacab]

Pure builds in D&D 3.X have NEVER been the strongest - why is it so surprising that an MMO based on it (even as far-removed as DDO may be now) has mutli-class builds (taking advantage of the best few points in a few different classes) still on top?

Pure builds aren't necessarily weak, but multiclass will always have the potential to be stronger.

I disagree...especially in PnP.

20 Wizard (high INT build)

20 Cleric (high WIS build)

20 Druid (high WIS build)

3 most powerfull "builds" in the game

But I do agree...for melees...multiclass is the way to go.

[Bacab]

Pure/simple builds have always been a "start" place for newer players. I have never played D&D nor care for it.
One of the best part of this game is coming up with multiclassed builds by taking the best of several classes.

Take a look at the most important builds through the evolution of DDO (i'm forgetting a lot, just giving some examples):
- the monster
- tukaw
- helves angel
- monkchers
- juggernaut
- blitz
- emerald
- grandmaster of death
- solar phoenix
- godhand
- ...

All of these are multiclassed toons.

People that have played for a while like Haek and I, both with completionist, try to max out our builds. It is only fair that with so much time and dedication we can achieve multiclassed builds that are better in many aspects than basic builds. Keep in mind those builds wouldn't work without the lives/gear.

An example: nick's grandmaster of death. A 32pt build won't be able to reach enough DCs or to hit so for that person a pure evoker OR melee divine giving up on DCs will be better. But for a completionist like nick with triple wiz/sorc/ftr/monk lives, isn't it fair that he can make the build work?

Nick will always be a Barbarian to me...

[zealous]

As previously hinted at, LD and Fury is teh melee shiznazzles.

Cleave + momentum swing makes for good melee AOE, primal avatar cleave spamming, cleave twitching and fast charging of blitz.

Adrenaline + many shot (and IPS) makes for very very nice bursts. In fact so good that even a paladin probably should try to fit MS.


This does however require quite a substantial amount of feats.
3 for cleave line (+1 for OC) and 5 for MS+bow strength (+2 for IPS).

The Jugg manages to fit all this while also granting repeater usage and the ability to fit IPS, making for decent non-MS ranged if wanted.

This general build concept being based on feats+destinies is nice in that it isn't very dependent on enhancements, reducing chance for enhancement pass gimpage. Fury/blitz is dependent on base damage and cleaves/adrenaline doesn't mix well with DS/off-hand strikes. This in combination with a large proportion of damage being tied to destinies/feats reduces the advantage of many of the main melee classes over mutts/casters.

The jugg get's ranged feats from the main class (arti) and can thereby stay fairly pure while still being able to fit the required feats. It is ofc possible to go for the same concept with other caster classes as main class but that would entail the sacrifice some of the wanted feats or going for deeper multiclassing.

For melee classes fighter and ranger grants many feats and can be combined together or with monk/arti for even more.

I'm personally in favor of 12ftr/6ran providing sufficient feats for the shiznazzles with spares for thf line/shield line/tactics or even grabbing g2wf. You could spec for survivability with defender or tactics with kensai. Adrenaline overload improved precise many sniper shot would likely be very interesting for 5x4x5x#mobs times base damage. Splash with monk for feats and evasion or arti for umd, repeaters and echoes of power (for unlimited rejuv coccoon).

[WruntJunior]

I disagree...especially in PnP.

20 Wizard (high INT build)

20 Cleric (high WIS build)

20 Druid (high WIS build)

3 most powerfull "builds" in the game

But I do agree...for melees...multiclass is the way to go.

All 3 of those are weaker than taking a PrC (which is considered multi-classing in 3.X...note I'm not necessarily saying 10 Wizard/10 PrC, but 17-18 Wizard/2-3 PrC is more powerful than 20 Wizard in PnP - in all honesty, a 15 Wizard/5 Archmage would be much more powerful than a 20 Wizard, as he would know spells and cast them as a level 20 Wizard, but get far more benefits).

[Loriac]

I disagree...especially in PnP.

20 Wizard (high INT build)

20 Cleric (high WIS build)

20 Druid (high WIS build)

3 most powerfull "builds" in the game

But I do agree...for melees...multiclass is the way to go.

Slightly off topic, but this was a key weakness of the 3e multiclassing set up. Whilst BAB was something you could progress in any class, caster level was tied to specific classes. This is the reason why melee multiclassing worked, but spellcasting multiclassing didn't except for prestige classes that gave +1CL to base caster class per level (like eldritch knight).

From a design standpoint, it would have been better if each class had been given a caster level progression like BAB, so e.g. fighters would get 1/2 CL per level to arcane and divine casting levels, arcanes 1 CL to arcane level and 3/4 to divine level, etc.

[Thrudh]

I'm personally in favor of 12ftr/6ran providing sufficient feats

I love this combo too... Because you get a ton of feats, and a very solid ranged option... and sprint boost to boot. 6 ranger is a very sweet splash.

[voodoogroves]

All 3 of those are weaker than taking a PrC (which is considered multi-classing in 3.X...note I'm not necessarily saying 10 Wizard/10 PrC, but 17-18 Wizard/2-3 PrC is more powerful than 20 Wizard in PnP - in all honesty, a 15 Wizard/5 Archmage would be much more powerful than a 20 Wizard, as he would know spells and cast them as a level 20 Wizard, but get far more benefits).

Amen. The first commandment of optimization is, if I recall, "Thou shalt not giveup caster levels". I think it was also the fourth or fifth commandment as well, because it was just that important.

EDIT: Heh, fifth. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archi...?t-214634.html

Slightly off topic, but this was a key weakness of the 3e multiclassing set up. Whilst BAB was something you could progress in any class, caster level was tied to specific classes. This is the reason why melee multiclassing worked, but spellcasting multiclassing didn't except for prestige classes that gave +1CL to base caster class per level (like eldritch knight).

Nit: EK is a 9/10 casting class ;-)

From a design standpoint, it would have been better if each class had been given a caster level progression like BAB, so e.g. fighters would get 1/2 CL per level to arcane and divine casting levels, arcanes 1 CL to arcane level and 3/4 to divine level, etc.

I would have LOVED a different PRE model, but understand the limits as well. I'd love to be able to multiclass into more than 3 classes to, but I'm nutty.


One of the little things going on is EDs have a number of abilities based on character level. Some heroic abilities are the same.

Beyond straight DPS math, pick those out in your head and think about the ones that scale and remain more relevant in EE.

[Lauf]

Way to hijack a thread guys, gj

[hermespan]

I have a Light monk so please exclude that.

Many of old DPS toons are antiquated and for the most part ineffective nowadays. looksing to build a new toon focused on DPS, but I do like my self sufficiency.

Any flavor of the month type DPS builds that have a focus on self sufficiency?

you can go helf and take cleric dilly on any class/multiclass you want. Pretty much makes any class self sufficient with only the non-human racial hit, and a few AP with guaranteed 95% success rate on divine scrolls. As always there's the rogue splash option and UMD.

Lots of stuff has changed, then again, lots of stuff is still the same

Also remember that you can get evasion from 2 different EDs so you don't need to splash just for evasion.

[K_0tiC]

Anything you want with 1-2 levels of rogue/arti is 100% umd these days. 23base skill points +5 from epic levels 28 before you look at: charisma, cha skills item, gs item, luck bonus, destiny twists etc etc

Dps & survivability I'd have to go with 12monk splits. Human if you take the 1 rogue level for the 1d6 +3 sneak attack damage more amp 1 more feat more skills (if you want some basic trapping and ol) or helf rogue dilly for the 3d6 sneak attack with 2 levels of arti so you don't need mental toughness or one of those feats to be able to take helf AA, useful low level spells, small dog great for pulling trapped levers/taking agro so you can get your sneak attack in. Honestly you can't beat monk speed + improved evasion + abundant step + monk amp enhancements, the ability to quickly get yourself out of trouble and space to scroll/drink sf pots/raise dead party members. Mix it up with fighter 7 if you want the dps option and enough strength to hit the requirement for overwhelming crit blunt rest into wisdom to get the dcs up for u17. Or with ranger 6 if you want to look at ability to use manyshot and 10k stars as well as full unarmed dps with power attack, greater two weapon fighting might have to give up ips or one of the improved crits to go overwhelming critical/improved martial arts/vorpal fists though.

I recommend both have @ least a 36point build and the best tomes you can get your hands on +3s work but certain things are not possible without +4s (16base str+3levels+4tome = overwhelming crit +16base wis +3 levels +4tome = vorpal fists)

Though not a big deal the non bow human version can easily just pick up overwhelming crit (+1crit multi 19-20) & improved martial arts(+1[w]) but shamefully imp martial arts does not work with ki weapons like it is ment to so taking zen archery then imp martial does not increase your bow dps at all so only take zen if you wish to use bows with 10kstars.

Non bow builds will have more dps and stunning dcs from the fighter enhancements (kensai I bonus damage+crit damage haste boost 3 without having to give up your tier 3 twist in your destinys) and a bit more freedom for enhancements since your not so constrained to pick up helf AA + all the other monk and ranger goodies.
Bow builds provide better survivability since you are further away from the 150-300hp hits of EE content, though earth 3, 12 dark monk provides alot of prr + 25% incorp toss in a smoke item or displace clickies and you barely take damage on anything epic hard or lower.

Keep in mind for u17
Solid bow dps toons with hp and self sufficiency will be sort after for the new raid with the amount of things to be killed & kited at the same time.

[budalic]

I disagree...especially in PnP.

20 Wizard (high INT build)

20 Cleric (high WIS build)

20 Druid (high WIS build)

3 most powerfull "builds" in the game

But I do agree...for melees...multiclass is the way to go.

Nah, optimised build is to be more like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 or something like that.

Caster prestige classes are one of most overpowered options in game.

Well, unless you are playing core only, where your choice would be limited. But it does include archmage...

[WruntJunior]

Nah, optimised build is to be more like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 or something like that.

Caster prestige classes are one of most overpowered options in game.

Well, unless you are playing core only, where your choice would be limited. But it does include archmage...

I just had to dig through source books to find the Incatatrix...I didn't realize that that specific PrC existed, or was so powerful. >_>

But yeah, with PrCs, pure classes aren't the strongest by a good stretch in PnP. In DDO, we don't have PrCs, but PrEs give classes more benefits (and those classes already had benefits, anyways).

[NaturalHazard]

You are fond of paladins, I get that - and for the first time since zeal's nerf they are pretty solid. We agree here.

Top ED for questing is LD for the most part, FotW for raiding. We agree here.

This is the part where I have trouble though.. if builds with lower DPS output than say my AA are called "pure killers", I really ought to think of a better name for my build =P.

You see, as an active raider, I don't get in which raid a basic build is better than a more complex build.
In the two hardest raids in the game (EELOB & EECITW), more complex builds do better - taking my AA or Haek's juggernaut again as examples... both are complex builds, with better defenses, survivability and DPS output than all the 3 basic builds you listed.

I was going to ask if paladins find it hard to get into EE groups because of lack of dps....

I got a question about bards ....... is it ok to play another epic destiny besides fatesinger? I was mulling over trying something different on my more melee focused bard, I use to remember clicking to join a group on one of my bards then getting a tell asking if I had maxed out my song damage enhancements, I did of course but it sort of put my back up.