So what should be the "acceptable" DC for Epic Elite?

[redoubt]

Caveats to include:

1. Not every spell should hit every monster. i.e. you need to pick a spell that attacks the mobs weak save.
2. Spell Pen is an additional defense that some mobs may have, but we can discuss that elsewhere, please.
3. Lets be honest, this is mostly about enchant, conjuration and/or necromancy. (Yes, conjuration too. Web is, i think, the most commonly used spell to attack a reflex save if you are not a dps caster. Then again, I learn new stuff all the time.)

To make things simple and have a place of reference, how about we use 50%? (This does not include debuffs.) Just what DC should hit the average mob on epic elite (end of the road/GH end game stuff) on a roll "to save" of 10 or lower?

My initial stab at this would be 50.

A few people would have the really awesome DCs of 55 and get a 75% chance and not have to do as much debuffing as a result of the extra effort they put into that school. Those with lower, say even a 45, could have useable results after applying a couple debuffs.

Again, the question is, what DC should hit a mob's weak save 50% (before debuffs)?

[Loriac]

The problem is that tactical combat feats roll against the same saves as caster DCs, and str is much easier to raise than int or cha (or wis).

So if mob saves are balanced vs. casters, they're going to be too low vs. melee. This particularly affects the necromantic school which is reliant on overcoming fort saves.

A comprehensive review / change would need to bring combat tactics modifiers into line with DC casting ones (including potentially lower base than 10 to allow for greater strength on melee), and only once that had been done would it make sense to look at % success vs. mobs weak saves.

However, as I posted in the DCs thread, I think we're getting to the stage where Turbine will have to change the save-or-die system to be similar to the new AC system (i.e. move away from the d20 mechanic).

[EvilI]

However, as I posted in the DCs thread, I think we're getting to the stage where Turbine will have to change the save-or-die system to be similar to the new AC system (i.e. move away from the d20 mechanic).

Or the inflation of enemy saves could be slowed down while there is still time. We are approaching the same situation as with AC, but we aren't there yet.

[Jaid314]

Caveats to include:

1. Not every spell should hit every monster. i.e. you need to pick a spell that attacks the mobs weak save.
2. Spell Pen is an additional defense that some mobs may have, but we can discuss that elsewhere, please.
3. Lets be honest, this is mostly about enchant, conjuration and/or necromancy. (Yes, conjuration too. Web is, i think, the most commonly used spell to attack a reflex save if you are not a dps caster. Then again, I learn new stuff all the time.)

To make things simple and have a place of reference, how about we use 50%? (This does not include debuffs.) Just what DC should hit the average mob on epic elite (end of the road/GH end game stuff) on a roll "to save" of 10 or lower?

My initial stab at this would be 50.

A few people would have the really awesome DCs of 55 and get a 75% chance and not have to do as much debuffing as a result of the extra effort they put into that school. Those with lower, say even a 45, could have useable results after applying a couple debuffs.

Again, the question is, what DC should hit a mob's weak save 50% (before debuffs)?

i would add in evocation to important schools. evasion is a major PITA, and after all, there will be times when you're hoping to land something like sonic blast, greater shout, prismatic ray/spray, electric loop, or cyclonic blast (not that all of those have crowd control or instakill as the main reason to use them, but hey, it's much nicer to have an electric loop SLA that deals full damage and dazes stuff until hit than it is to have an electric loop SLA that deals 0 damage more often than not and never dazes anything at all).

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Player DCs (and many other traits) need to be capped based on level.

That way the Devs can make a game that is enjoyable by grinder and casual guy alike.



Second part of this though is more and more high lvl content. And raising the level cap periodically.


Grinders should be rewarded for they efforts, but not to the detriment of everyone else.

Some of this can be accomplished with limiting what stacks.

You can also put a wide variety of monsters and challenge ratings inside the same dungeons.

That way players can have fun blasting hoordes of minions out of their path, but also fight stuff that they have to adjust their tactics for.


Some monsters should be magic immune as well.

(Unnerf Golems!)


( I would not be totally against a spell DC overhaul similar to the AC overhaul... that gives less and less reward as your DCs get higher... the goal should be making dungeons enjoyable for both grinders and casual players, while still rewarding the grinders)