Epic Claw set and more stealth nerfed

[Stormraiser]

Many set bonuses are being reclassified from untyped to artifact bonuses to better enable the development team to scale dungeons in a more consistent manner, since having multiple sources of untyped stacking set bonuses (particularly damage bonuses) can lead to outlier cases where some players face a less-than-intended challenge in some quest difficulties, including Epic Elite.

It is fine to make the change, but players have been asking for more transparency. Why not let people know what is going to be changed? There are enough bugs where display windows, descriptions, etc do not mesh with reality, that one might not notice this change, or not realize if it was a bug or WAI.

PLEASE, take the time to make announcements about changes like these.

[Captain_Wizbang]

We can complain all we want, but Feather and the rest of them could not care less about player disappointment. In nerfs, loot quality, grind level, NOTHING.

You have no idea how wrong you are.
They read the forums, they play the game, they in-fact listened to us by developing EGH.

This is a public forum, not very forgiving, and because of it being such a hostile and volatile place, we don't get the interaction we could enjoy. The point is, you can't please everyone, and no matter what could be posted and discussed here, it would blow-up.
But they do care, and do listen to us.

As for the thread itself, we wouldn't be having this discussion if the expansion's loot made all existing loot lower tier stuff.
The intent that I see, is they are trying to restore some of the balance we had all these years that the expansion ruined.

[Ape_Man]

You have no idea how wrong you are.
They read the forums, they play the game, they in-fact listened to us by developing EGH.

This is a public forum, not very forgiving, and because of it being such a hostile and volatile place, we don't get the interaction we could enjoy. The point is, you can't please everyone, and no matter what could be posted and discussed here, it would blow-up.
But they do care, and do listen to us.

As for the thread itself, we wouldn't be having this discussion if the expansion's loot made all existing loot lower tier stuff.
The intent that I see, is they are trying to restore some of the balance we had all these years that the expansion ruined.

Does this mean we can blame you?

[Cetus]

You have no idea how wrong you are.
They read the forums, they play the game, they in-fact listened to us by developing EGH.

This is a public forum, not very forgiving, and because of it being such a hostile and volatile place, we don't get the interaction we could enjoy. The point is, you can't please everyone, and no matter what could be posted and discussed here, it would blow-up.
But they do care, and do listen to us.

As for the thread itself, we wouldn't be having this discussion if the expansion's loot made all existing loot lower tier stuff.
The intent that I see, is they are trying to restore some of the balance we had all these years that the expansion ruined.

Although I see your point, it still seems overtly obvious to me that those that are ostensibly pleased are in the vast, vast minority. Its not a question of whether or not they can please everyone, its a question of whether or not (as far as loot is concerned) they can please anyone at this point. Couple that with the attitude with which our loot designer posts (e.g. the bug report comment) and you have a conglomerate of reasons for such sentiments.

It isn't fair to us, as paying customers who try to spend time enjoying this video game, to feel like the time and money we have invested are being quietly rendered useless via these stealth nerfs. If we take the time to provide our feedback on these boards and sometimes express outrage over what we perceive as unjust actions, I feel that it is of paramount importance that the devs try to alleviate those emotions. If they cannot balance loot in a way where it is exciting, effective, and not overpowering. Then maybe they should ask the folks that understand these mechanics better - us.

If they can guarantee that our feedback on EVERY SINGLE NEW ITEM gets incorporated before final release, then maybe we can put an end to crummy loot designs. I'm more than happy to provide detailed feedback about items, only if I feel that they will be incorporated. I do not feel that way about feather right now. The armor changes was a very pleasant exception to this, but that got quickly turned around. I want more of that.

[Alkindus]

What garbage.

who comes up with these **** changes?

[Scraap]

Does this mean we can blame you?

Feel free to blame me. I have been hammering on the notion that everything and it's dog stacking was idiotic design for awhile now, after all. Still not cool with immediately removing stacking and 'some day' moving laterally. Aint takin the blame for that level of bone-headed.

It really, honestly, no joke, has become a running gag among the player-base speculating about what new system is going to be started but left unfinished this year. This kind of thing is why.

[Jay203]

If they cannot balance loot in a way where it is exciting, effective, and not overpowering. Then maybe they should ask the folks that understand these mechanics better - us.

sorry, but i cannot agree with you on this
there has rarely been any time where the players actually showed any care for balance of power in this game
almost all the demands are for way more power than they currently are and they constantly want more. the motto of the player base has pretty much been "no nerfs! buff to compensate the difference!"

[HatsuharuZ]

In the game Diablo 3, everything stacks. While playing it, I discovered that the best way to make my character stronger was to buy items off of the auction house.

I'd rather that not happen here.

[Dolphious]

sorry, but i cannot agree with you on this
there has rarely been any time where the players actually showed any care for balance of power in this game
almost all the demands are for way more power than they currently are and they constantly want more. the motto of the player base has pretty much been "no nerfs! buff to compensate the difference!"

I agree, it's a "boy who called wolf" problem. People complain about every item, every time, and always ask for stuff to be stronger. Now that it really is a problem they aren't listening, because it's the same darn thing people do every time.

Maybe if 99% of the feedback wasn't "buff my gear for my toons!!!" the devs would be more apt to listen. Did anyone say anything when the ESoS came out and broke 2HF? Doubt it, probably just a bunch of threads complaining that it ought to have metaline so it wouldn't be "useless" against alignment + metal DR.

[Cetus]

sorry, but i cannot agree with you on this
there has rarely been any time where the players actually showed any care for balance of power in this game
almost all the demands are for way more power than they currently are and they constantly want more. the motto of the player base has pretty much been "no nerfs! buff to compensate the difference!"

I think thats a misconception. A lot of the regulars on here provide excellant feedback on lackuluster gear. Sirgog is the first that comes to mind, and many others who follow along to tweak the gear into a nice piece of theoretical loot that never gets considered by any dev.

It is well within the realm of possibility if people can offer their versions of loot for the designer to **realistically** consider, and not just brush it off. Not all loot needs intervention, just some REALLY obvious ones - like the skybreaker. Whats going on with that? Why isn't feather addressing it? Is there anybody who thinks its actually a well designed item?

Repeat those questions for halcyon boots, for tenderizer, etc

[Tid12]

I think thats a misconception. A lot of the regulars on here provide excellant feedback on lackuluster gear. Sirgog is the first that comes to mind, and many others who follow along to tweak the gear into a nice piece of theoretical loot that never gets considered by any dev.

It is well within the realm of possibility if people can over their versions of loot for the designer to **realistically** consider, and not just brush it off.

Also, he is not saying "Feather must do the item like I say or not do it at all".

It's feedback for a reason: take the best from our suggestions and use them.

[Dolphious]

Sirgog is the first that comes to mind,

I can agree with that. We should start a petition to have Sirgog hired as the new loot designer!

[Shmuel]

Also, he is not saying "Feather must do the item like I say or not do it at all".

It's feedback for a reason: take the best from our suggestions and use them.

Yes, and exactly what feedback, from ANYONE have you seen actually used lately?

[bbqzor]

Many set bonuses are being nerfed to better enable the development team to add new loot without increasing character stats, since having multiple sources of untyped stacking set bonuses (particularly damage bonuses) can lead to outlier cases where some players face a less-than-intended challenge in some quest difficulties, including Epic Elite because 2, 4, or even 10 damage a swing makes Epic Elite very easy, snicker.

Having consistent classifications for set bonuses also makes it easier for new and existing players to understand what benefits are available to them. Despite acknowledging that legible tool tips help players, we have not taken the time to fix the tooltips for epic destinies, but we will when a nerf for those comes up.

The +4 damage bonus from Greater Vulkoor's Might and +4 damage bonus from the Planar Focus: Prowess (or +3 bonus from Knight's Loyalty), for example, should probably never have stacked together, but did due to their classification as an untyped bonus. While it's true that all characters who have used these sets together will lose +4 of their damage bonus, the intent is to nerf the old sets so set bonuses in the future stack, causing more grind to re-reach the same point, and allow the development team to better scale dungeons with the power level of player characters who hit for 4 damage more than we planned. If we do find that some item sets become disproprtionally underutilized as a result of this change, we may consider individually buffing those set bonuses in a future patch but, lol, really theyre just nerfed..

I should also note that not all set bonuses are becoming Artifact bonuses. Only the untyped ones people bothered to spend time on.

Cordo, I like you a lot, but this is how your post reads to people who have spent hours upon hours playing the game. Just flat out saying it was nerfed will get you more credit and less hate than sneaking in changes like this, and then claiming that "Some of you who used the sets together will lose your +4 damage"... Okay, so only some of us lose the set? You know we all do... even when owning up you're trying not to own up.

You want to future proof your development space? Make all the future sets have Artifact Typed bonuses.... which will then stack with our old untyped stuff. Surprise, same effect, no nerfs.

All it does is give the old loot a longer shelf life, until the new items eclipse them enough to invalidate the stacking benefit. And that is not a bad thing. Many, if not most, players in the 21-25 bracket cannot keep up with the re-gearing across all their characters. More often than not, you wind up grouping with people using old loot. In some cases very old.

Taking the top 1% down a few stacking damage is hilariously ineffectual compared to hurting all the people who aren't in that position. If Epic Elite was "too easy" for you, losing a few damage a swing isn't going to change that one bit.

I am only affected on 2 characters out of over a dozen, so its not personal. And on one of them, it just decides which upgrade path to take leaving only my barb as losing out (and again, a barb losing a few dmg a hit isnt going to wreck a build or anything, so meh). Its just a vehement dislike of bad etiquette which leads me to lose whatever good will was left all over again.

And this change is bad etiquette. That post was even worse etiquette. The right way to do this is to just tell everyone the why up front, get some feedback, and adjust. Be very plain about it, and very honest. People invest time, effort, money, and care into their characters. They deserve to be treated with respect. Not wait until we notice, then try to explain it away without fessing up. Bleh. I hope this change gets reverted before live.

[Shmuel]

This goes in line with their stated goal of making items interchangeble instread of going for a perfect set of stacking bonuses, but not saying anything about the change in the release notes is terrible.

If every item is interchangeable, then why does anyone need to farm any items? The ones you have are just as good, and interchangeable with, all the others. Great "goal".

[Systern]

Many set bonuses are being reclassified from untyped to artifact bonuses to better enable the development team to scale dungeons in a more consistent manner, since having multiple sources of untyped stacking set bonuses (particularly damage bonuses) can lead to outlier cases where some players face a less-than-intended challenge in some quest difficulties, including Epic Elite.

Having consistent classifications for set bonuses also makes it easier for new and existing players to understand what benefits are available to them. Players could upgrade to a higher-level set bonus that included a higher damage bonus, for example, or choose to use a completely different set bonus that is more in-line with their current character's level and goals.

The +4 damage bonus from Greater Vulkoor's Might and +4 damage bonus from the Planar Focus: Prowess (or +3 bonus from Knight's Loyalty), for example, should probably never have stacked together, but did due to their classification as an untyped bonus. While it's true that some characters who have used these sets together will lose +4 of their damage bonus, the intent is to offer a wider diversity of set bonuses in the future, and allow the development team to better scale dungeons with the power level of player characters. If we do find that some item sets become disproprtionally underutilized as a result of this change, we may consider individually buffing those set bonuses in a future patch.

I should also note that not all set bonuses are becoming Artifact bonuses. Set bonuses that already had a specific classification will keep that type.

You'd have to look first.


How about them Bards...

[Jasparion]

Yes . . . because melees SO needed to be nerfed

Im assuming this isnt sarcasm, given the comments in the "Wizards are now terrible, who would ever bother playing a Wizard ever again DRAMA" thread.

[Tid12]

Yes, and exactly what feedback, from ANYONE have you seen actually used lately?

That was the point

I was agreeing with Durnak, more communication and more use of our feedback from Feather would be nice.

I miss Genasi for that.

[HalfORCastrator]

Yes, and exactly what feedback, from ANYONE have you seen actually used lately?

I remember back during the WOB nerf on lama multiple people said "don't make instakills impossible, instead just up the saves so we can build our toons for it". The last few updates have been increasing saves. (good or bad, it's a suggestion that was listened to)

Sirgog, and others, have asked for less stacking, and more clarity regarding the stacking, across items.

Many players have asked for an epic augment overhaul, and we got that. Myself specifically, I suggested +2 school dcs and spell power in red slots(as I'm sure others have). Another asked for +7/+2ins stats to be incorporated. Another suggested striding. Here we are.

There was always the complaint regarding btc stuff, and they found a compromise with btc-on-equip.

Players wanted incentives for EE questing, and they developed the EN/EH/EE loot tables. Not only do these provide incentive for EEs, they do it without creating a big divide between EN and EH vs EE loot.

Players didn't like the daily epic timers, so they made available immediate resets.

I remember a suggestion regarding Madstone Boots. They were recently changed with this exact suggestion. (U15 I think). I can't remember the specifics of it right now, just the idea of the post and the release note associated with it. edit: Something with Madstone rage and spells being defaulted to on or off.

And I'm sure there are more out there.

This continuous *****ing regarding not being listened is not only nonsense, but is completely obtuse to the fact that they can't just listen to everyone on the forums. They can and need to do their own innovating. As one small example, the auto token-pickup that is done in quests. A very novel change, and is one(to me) of those changes that you think "duh!" in hindsight.

As far as players designing their own items, I really hope not. All I ever see in "what item would be ideal for X class" threads are OP items.

EDIT:
Oh, and let's not forget the most recent. The blue scale armor being "changed" to major arcane lore. Jeez, people don't even remember what happened 5 mins ago.

[shadereaper33]

The unspecified time is also my greatest concern. As an example: Kensei II and Titan's Grip still do not mix.
If something is taken away, something else should be given to balance it out.

This is not inherently true. If the situation is unbalanced to begin with, as the current stacking of set bonuses is perceived to be by the dev's, then taking something away and giving something else back may leave the situation still unbalanced, thus not fixing anything. If you constantly make multiple changes to a system, it is incredibly difficult to actually achieve balance in that system. If, instead, you choose to make 1 change at a time, and then wait to see how that change affects the system's balance, it is not only much easier to achieve balance, you can achieve the desired balance with much fewer required changes.