Epic Claw set and more stealth nerfed

[Chai]

Let's see. Today, if I have claw set and a t1 sireth with prowess conflux, I get +8 to damage and +15 prr. On lama, with the same gear, I get +4 to damage and +15 prr. Math is hard.

Understanding how stacking bonuses SHOULD work must be tough too. Same adjective = doesnt stack. Turbines error was breaking those rules, and now in order to fix the huge power creep potential introduced in every update, they have to go back to the old rule of same adjectives not stacking. Not a nerf if it wasnt WAI in the first place. They moved away from rule as written and thought their rule zero was better, and now the players are stumbling on a huge oberoni in the process of it all.

[DarkForte]

*Warning, the following post contains large amounts of logic. If logic upsets you, or you are allergic to it, please skip over this post*

At the risk of becoming a target for pitchforks, absolutely stacking bonuses are one of the worst things in this game. From a logical, rational viewpoint, the more absolutely stacking bonuses we have, the higher the "maximum" amount of power a character can have. This means that the hardest difficulty of content must be balanced around having that highest level of power, otherwise we get people complaining about how nothing in DDO is hard anymore. But, at the same time, you have other players who may be casual, or just not as good as the elite players, who need another difficulty to run. So the dev's create the difficulty we have now, with EE set up for the best of the best, because they have all that power and skill and want a challenge, then we have EH which is fine for most of the player base as it isn't completely faceroll, nor does it stomp your teeth in every fight. Finally, there is EN, for those who are new to the content or the game, or just not as good at this type of game.

Now, the actual problem with the absolute stacking bonuses lies with the differences between these difficulties. The elite power gamer crowd is going to have the absolute best items in every slot they possibly can, because that is how they enjoy the game. Nothing wrong with that, but it means that for EE to be difficult for them, it has to be balanced around the idea of the best builds in the game with the best gear in the game. The more power a character has, the harder that difficulty needs to be to be a challenge for that character. Then you get the rest of the crowd, that doesn't have the absolute best gear in the game, maybe they make some builds that are sub-optimal or just for fun, so the other difficulties get balanced around them. As the gap between the absolute best characters and the average gamers' character grows larger and larger, the difference between EH and EE will also continue to grow larger and larger. We can already see the negative effects this has on the game right now, as EE is so radically different from EH that there isn't any real way to prepare for EE same bashing your face against it until you figure it out.

As I said, absolute stacking bonuses are bad for the game, they are the bad form of power creep. Making the bonuses not stack absolutely, by assigning them with a type, may not be a popular decision but it is a necessary decision for the continued health of the game. More powerful effects, that do not stack with some other, similar effects, is a good form of power creep. It provides players with a path to increase their characters power level without becoming overwhelming in its effects. It may seem like random, arbitrary nerfs just to spite the player base, but I suspect that a lot of the recent changes made have been to try to curb the rate of power rise in characters in an attempt to keep the life of the game going.

/end logic

There's only so many bonuses you can fit into one gearset without crippling yourself elsewhere. Sure, on live, sun soul, eclaw, pdk and prowess all stack, but you can only have 2 of those at a time. There's an upper limit on how much damage bonus you get before you start running out of slots for essential stuff. That's the kind of thing that makes gearing a toon more fun and diverse: stuffing the most dps possible without crippling yourself elsewhere. Now I won't bother looking for how to fit in claw set and antipode conflux on my monk. I'll just start farming alchemical HWs, which is, the way I see it, a lazy solution.

[DarkForte]

Understanding how stacking bonuses SHOULD work must be tough too. Same adjective = doesnt stack. Turbines error was breaking those rules, and now in order to fix the huge power creep potential introduced in every update, they have to go back to the old rule of same adjectives not stacking.

I don't see any adjectives there.

Planar Conflux: "When this item is equipped at the same time as a planar conflux you will gain +4 to damage to your attack and damage rolls [...]"

Greater Vulkoor's Might: "When both items are equipped you will receive +4 damage [...]"

There's no mention of them having the same type, your point is irrelevant.

[Chai]

I don't see any adjectives there.

Planar Conflux: "When this item is equipped at the same time as a planar conflux you will gain +4 to damage to your attack and damage rolls [...]"

Greater Vulkoor's Might: "When both items are equipped you will receive +4 damage [...]"

There's no mention of them having the same type, your point is irrelevant.

Untyped is an adjective, which broke the stacking rules. The fact that you disagree with my perfect understanding of how stacking rules work doesnt make the point irrelevant. Youre using the oberoni fallacy as justification of Turbine breaking stacking rules in the past, but wont stand by them when they fix that error. I dont like proxy nerfs either, because they usually are due to a lack of foresight and could have been prevented by looking into how breaking current rules could lead to future issues in power creep down the road. As I clearly explained, youre irritated because you took the time to farm the gear and now its worth is compromised. Giving players something for a long period of time and then taking it away is not a good practice. Breaking game rules to give it to them is even worse.

[Eighnuss]

We still have much further to go

For some time now, there has been a shadow organization working to undermine the previous efforts of developers in this game. More and more often, we stumble upon modifications which are completely unnecessary and unfounded. With each passing travesty we have accepted, the nefariousness of these individuals has only increased. At this point in its evolution, it has had broad ramifications on feats, gear, xp, destinies, flagging prerequisites, ddo store, and even race. One most alarming, the dismantling of the Warforged, draws frightening parallels between the actions of this shadow organization and other similar groups of our past. The Gestapo-like systematic targeting and dismantling of our most well known and loved content must end here. Do not condone the mass eradication of content we embrace and invest in to allow a new regime to inflate their own products' value. If you wish to compete, do so without forcing the alternatives into non existence. We will not allow you to perform genocide upon old content, to make room for whatever new master race you intend to create. It was not right in the past, and it isn't right today.

[DarkForte]

Untyped is an adjective, which broke the stacking rules. The fact that you disagree with my perfect understanding of how stacking rules work doesnt make the point irrelevant. Youre using the oberoni fallacy as justification of Turbine breaking stacking rules in the past, but wont stand by them when they fix that error.

Let me skim my post for 'untyped'... yeah, no results, sorry.

It could be any type in the backend code, nothing is being mentioned in the item description. The absence of a descriptor does not imply on an universal 'untyped' descriptor that shouldn't stack. If both items said they provide 'an untyped bonus to damage' you'd have a point. Also, calling out a fallacy that neither did I use (that 'rule' is understood as bonuses with the same descriptors not stacking, but the absence of a descriptor isn't a descriptor) nor is relevant to the discussion is a good example of a non-sequitur fallacy.

[justagame]

*Warning, the following post contains large amounts of logic. If logic upsets you, or you are allergic to it, please skip over this post*

At the risk of becoming a target for pitchforks, absolutely stacking bonuses are one of the worst things in this game. From a logical, rational viewpoint, the more absolutely stacking bonuses we have, the higher the "maximum" amount of power a character can have. This means that the hardest difficulty of content must be balanced around having that highest level of power, otherwise we get people complaining about how nothing in DDO is hard anymore. But, at the same time, you have other players who may be casual, or just not as good as the elite players, who need another difficulty to run. So the dev's create the difficulty we have now, with EE set up for the best of the best, because they have all that power and skill and want a challenge, then we have EH which is fine for most of the player base as it isn't completely faceroll, nor does it stomp your teeth in every fight. Finally, there is EN, for those who are new to the content or the game, or just not as good at this type of game.

Now, the actual problem with the absolute stacking bonuses lies with the differences between these difficulties. The elite power gamer crowd is going to have the absolute best items in every slot they possibly can, because that is how they enjoy the game. Nothing wrong with that, but it means that for EE to be difficult for them, it has to be balanced around the idea of the best builds in the game with the best gear in the game. The more power a character has, the harder that difficulty needs to be to be a challenge for that character. Then you get the rest of the crowd, that doesn't have the absolute best gear in the game, maybe they make some builds that are sub-optimal or just for fun, so the other difficulties get balanced around them. As the gap between the absolute best characters and the average gamers' character grows larger and larger, the difference between EH and EE will also continue to grow larger and larger. We can already see the negative effects this has on the game right now, as EE is so radically different from EH that there isn't any real way to prepare for EE same bashing your face against it until you figure it out.

As I said, absolute stacking bonuses are bad for the game, they are the bad form of power creep. Making the bonuses not stack absolutely, by assigning them with a type, may not be a popular decision but it is a necessary decision for the continued health of the game. More powerful effects, that do not stack with some other, similar effects, is a good form of power creep. It provides players with a path to increase their characters power level without becoming overwhelming in its effects. It may seem like random, arbitrary nerfs just to spite the player base, but I suspect that a lot of the recent changes made have been to try to curb the rate of power rise in characters in an attempt to keep the life of the game going.

/end logic

I generally agree with this. Too many stacking bonuses once got us into the impossible situation where some characters had AC of 100, some at AC 20, and some (who considered themselves reasonably geared) at AC 60, all in the same content. And it was impossible for a D20 system to treat all of them appropriately.

Ditto for spell DC's today. If you're going to challenge the umpteen past lives Wizard PM with all the right twists and gear, then you leave a huge chunk of people (who are supposedly focused on casting) unable to land spells.

I could go on, but the more stacking bonuses we have, the greater the gap between the uber and the merely good. And while no one would argue that the toughest content shouldn't be easily accessible to poor players, when you restrict a challenge to 0.5% of all players, that's not good for the game. It's not that some players at the very top should have to settle for being bored -- it's that the huge gap, the gap that allowed them to be bored while other GOOD players are helpless in the same content, never should have developed in the first place.

[Cetus]

I'm not really outraged over this. Personally, this claw set was going anyway to make room for a better dps setup. Maybe some intimi/hate gen guys might be hurting, but certainly not dps toons.

[Chai]

Let me skim my post for 'untyped'... yeah, no results, sorry.

It could be any type in the backend code, nothing is being mentioned in the item description. The absence of a descriptor does not imply on an universal 'untyped' descriptor that shouldn't stack. If both items said they provide 'an untyped bonus to damage' you'd have a point. Also, calling out a fallacy that neither did I use (that 'rule' is understood as bonuses with the same descriptors not stacking, but the absence of a descriptor isn't a descriptor) nor is relevant to the discussion is a good example of a non-sequitur fallacy.

This is not true. The The absence of a descriptor does imply universal 'untyped' descriptor. The devs have been using this term for years now. What they did wrong was make it stack with other untyped. Little to no foresight was put into that decision, and it began affecting the game in a way they didnt want it to, just like most of the other iterations of them breaking rule as written has. Their solution: Go back to rule as written and plead forgiveness for their Oberoni.

Breaking that rule and leaving it broken for the long period of time they did is the error, because alot of people farmed the gear that fell under this rule, and they are now affected by the proxy nerf that is taking place because of said lack of foresight. When stuff gets nerfed or proxy nerfed shortly after release its not usually a big deal, but when it happens years after items under that rule made their way into the game, this is the type of backlash it causes.

By saying the broken rule which moves away from rule as written should be left in place, because rule zero is better, you are committing the oberoni fallacy. The devs have been using "untyped" for years now, as does regular D&D rules, for anything that doesnt have another descriptor.

[Missing_Minds]

I don't see any adjectives there.

Planar Conflux: "When this item is equipped at the same time as a planar conflux you will gain +4 to damage to your attack and damage rolls [...]"

Greater Vulkoor's Might: "When both items are equipped you will receive +4 damage [...]"

There's no mention of them having the same type, your point is irrelevant.

Chai is obviously making an assumption on the name of the bonus. Which while understandable, I disagree with.

The reason why is simple. Mystery. Do you expect your DM to explicitly tell you all there is about the 'curse' you just got, or does your DM draw it out, and you learn though your experiences. The same can be said of weaponry. Your character seriously has no clue about typed vs untyped damage. Only that the weapon hurts some things more than others, glows, shrinks, etc. Metaknowledge vs. character knowledge.

This mystery is well known for annoying the heck out of players in video game settings where math crunching is the pastime.

Now his point about going back and changing stuff to a definitive named type to help prevent power creep? I wouldn't be surprised if he is correct on that one. Right or wrong method to do, it would do that.

[Chai]

Chai is obviously making an assumption on the name of the bonus. Which while understandable, I disagree with.

The reason why is simple. Mystery. Do you expect your DM to explicitly tell you all there is about the 'curse' you just got, or does your DM draw it out, and you learn though your experiences. The same can be said of weaponry. Your character seriously has no clue about typed vs untyped damage. Only that the weapon hurts some things more than others, glows, shrinks, etc. Metaknowledge vs. character knowledge.

This mystery is well known for annoying the heck out of players in video game settings where math crunching is the pastime.

Your character STARTS OFF without that metaknowledge. That doesnt change the rule however. They can GAIN that knowledge. If my wizard invests in magical weapon crafting, he will understand that he cant add +5 enhancement to another +5 enhancement to make a +10 enhanced weapon. The DM doesnt have to tell me this unless I make a knowledge roll, but the rule doesnt change simply because my character doesnt know.

The "assumption" to the name of the bonus comes from the actual rules regarding bonuses (which is not an assumption at all), as well as the fact that the devs have been using "untyped" for years as a description for anything that they didnt include a descriptor for. Note that not typing the bonus is what is causing the undesired powercreep in the first place. Whats worse is they left it that way for a long time before typing it, which means a higher quantity of players will be showing their displeasure.

[Ape_Man]

I sense much greatness in this thread.

We have at least 15 pages on this.

[Ape_Man]

I'm not really outraged over this. Personally, this claw set was going anyway to make room for a better dps setup. Maybe some intimi/hate gen guys might be hurting, but certainly not dps toons.

So it doesn't affect you so it must be okay? Not calling you out on this specifically but that's the general gist from many.

Evasion toons cannot get the PDK set bonus, they had to stay with Claw.

Speaking of which . . . why wasn't the PDK set set to the same type as Claw as well?

[Chai]

Speaking of which . . . why wasn't the PDK set set to the same type as Claw as well?

Because both require gloves.

THey SHOULD set it to the same type or a different type to reveal their intentions now, rather than waiting another few years for people to farm the shinola out of it, and then make them all mad by proxy nerfing again.

[Ape_Man]

Because both require gloves.

THey SHOULD set it to the same type or a different type to reveal their intentions now, rather than waiting another few years for people to farm the shinola out of it, and then make them all mad by proxy nerfing again.

But why is it fair that the Claw set gets nerfed (bonus set to the same type as Planar Focus) yet the PDK set doesn't? If one set is standardized so should the other.

Share the pain.

[DarkForte]

The "assumption" to the name of the bonus comes from the actual rules regarding bonuses (which is not an assumption at all), as well as the fact that the devs have been using "untyped" for years as a description for anything that they didnt include a descriptor for. Note that not typing the bonus is what is causing the undesired powercreep in the first place. Whats worse is they left it that way for a long time before typing it, which means a higher quantity of players will be showing their displeasure.

An untyped bonus != a bonus of the 'untyped' type. If the intention was to reduce power creep, why are shintao and FB sets still untyped? You don't have an argument beyond a flickle assumption that has been proved wrong over and over by the actual game. If untyped were an actual type, they wouldn't be changing it to artifact.

[Bowser_Koopa]

It's easy Mr. Ape_Man if that is your real name. The Gloves of the claw are made by drow and their scorpion god and the purple dragon nights are made by well not drow. And that's that.

Bowserkoopa,
Soon we will all be using the same weapon and armor etc, and classes will go away.

[Ape_Man]

An untyped bonus != a bonus of the 'untyped' type. If the intention was to reduce power creep, why are shintao and FB sets still untyped?

because they haven't gotten around to nerfing them yet.

The nerfs will continue until we start to care more about the new loot than the old.

[dejafu]

I'm fine with the change - loot needs to get a LOT more specific about bonus type, what it stacks with, etc. (especially ever since we lost the damage total readout on our equipment US). And I've always been weirdly resentful of how that set always wins out for those two slots - I want to use other items there, now I can.

Not so cool with the fact that it was stealthed - people are going to find out when it's an item set this important, so no need to take the additional PR hit by not bringing it up in release notes.

I'm even willing to believe that this was an accidental oversight rather than a deliberate stealth nerf, but even if that's the case, the devs need to start flagging particularly important changes like this with a glaring red "MUST BE IN RELEASE NOTES!!" flag.

[Ape_Man]

It's easy Mr. Ape_Man if that is your real name. The Gloves of the claw are made by drow and their scorpion god and the purple dragon nights are made by well not drow. And that's that.

Bowserkoopa,
Soon we will all be using the same weapon and armor etc, and classes will go away.

Thank you, let's make the Claw set a "Drow" bonus.

Brilliant idea, now it can go back to stacking with Planar Focus and we can all live happily ever after.