Epic Claw set and more stealth nerfed

[davyscy]

meh not quite, maybe any pure melee that does damage.

The current claw set is the best-in-slot for any pure melee dps that does damage CURRENTLY IN U16! My entire point is that u17 changes the game entirely with introduction of epic blackscale.

Hell, even the statement of it being best dps setup in u16 might not be true. Let's do a comparison of the current u16 redscale + claw set vs EE nether grasps + EE bracers of twisting shade + current (non-epic) blackscale:

+4 dmg and 10 seeker vs 15 seeker + relentless fury + 10% armor pen. If you aren't getting any kills at all, then the claw set setup is probably superior, but any kills at all would put the latter setup into a superior position

[oweieie]

Every single barbarian and fighter that are at all serious about DPS/initim certainly are. There are no other options that are even remotely close to as good as this set for those builds.

No one should be serious about intim. +threat is way over powered no one should ever need intim for single targets, and there aren't any multi-target fights because DDO has been getting horrible raids with a single boss for like ever. I've tanked pretty much everything on my monk with nothing more than earth stance and occasionally a chaos robe.

Chaos Robe was ridiculous, but now there are things that are 10x worse like Intolerant Blows. +threat never should have been taken beyond 15%. Or better it never should have existed and intim should have been able to be turned on as +threat.

The PDK set is not a bad set and gives +3. The fabricator's set gives +2 and the infusion gives very very nice bonuses if you can keep it procced. Both are solid options and far easier to get. Abishi set uses the bracer, and with the augment changes will make it a decent option again. Monks of course need the bracer slot for other set bonuses.

I expected them to add slots to the red fens items to keep them viable. Nerfing them instead though... lol!

This change will upset thousands and thousands of players, far more then this thread could ever account for. Thousands of players the item dev that did this likely didnt even consider, and really should have.

There aren't a thousand active players with the claw set. The intersection of "claw set", "planar focus", "new dragonscale armor" is going to be a handful of people. I only have a claw shard because of the bag bug despite running that thing to death, and I never bothered crafting it because fabricators were better for me anyway thanks to being about the only way to get exceptional fortification at the time.

[BOgre]

With FoS at the helm of loot design, we may as well face the fact that gear is just cosmetic now. Half my long ground out gear no longer stacks with the other half? May as well just take off. Other half was lack luster to begin with? Take it off.

Nekkid Raiding here we come. I'm only sorry I trashed my Starter Rags. Better reroll.

[JOTMON]

Personally, I would rather see continual nerfs than ever increasing and never ending bonuses that I need to stack in order to have the best build possible. While it may tick some people off at first, it's healthy for the game as a whole.

That being said, there should be some consideration for people who spent a lot of time getting the sets pre nerf.

This would be a fail for the game.

No one will spend time repetatively grinding quests for generic items you can get anywhere.

min/maxers will allways be on the hunt for little gains and unique items. These are the same people that reletlessly target the most difficult content for the rewards.

If there is no unique items to hunt for to get that tweak or perk then people will just not run the content anymore.
Look at the titan quest after the trivialization of the chattering ring.. dead.

Failure to look at the end impact on players who use these items and why they were desired in the first place.

No incentive to change to a new version and a perceived need to retroactively change the old loot = community pitchforks and torches.

DDO is failing the community of players by not sugar coating the bad medicine.

If the claw set had offered a new version with the artifact change and a slot or two... then people would look at the option.. do you stone of change it for a couple slots or keep as is for the old set stack damage.

The game is driven by the chase of items that give players an edge or reduces a weakness.
Unique bonusses and tweaks are better candy than boring repetative generic items.

[smatt]

Meh....

Glad I didn't bother to put a bunch of time into the set.... Sorry to tel the usual suspects and the newer ones, but....

Nerfs happen, game changes happen... They always have and they always will... Sometimes you benefit, sometimes you lose... This is exactly why I didn't bother to GRIND GRIND GRIND LOB, or CiTW.. The upgrades were marginal at best considering everythign else in the game...

Next...

[Grailhawk]

The current claw set is the best-in-slot for any pure melee dps that does damage CURRENTLY IN U16! My entire point is that u17 changes the game entirely with introduction of epic blackscale.

Hell, even the statement of it being best dps setup in u16 might not be true. Let's do a comparison of the current u16 redscale + claw set vs EE nether grasps + EE bracers of twisting shade + current (non-epic) blackscale:

+4 dmg and 10 seeker vs 15 seeker + relentless fury + 10% armor pen. If you aren't getting any kills at all, then the claw set setup is probably superior, but any kills at all would put the latter setup into a superior position

Relentless Fury is garbage vs bosses and who cares about trash the castes kill the trash anyways.

[davyscy]

Relentless Fury is garbage vs bosses and who cares about trash the castes kill the trash anyways.

I thought it was really obvious so I didnt say it before but...bosses have fort = armor pen becomes HUGEEE. +4 dmg vs extra 5 seeker and 10 pen on boss? I'd take the latter any day.

[Ape_Man]

You know who else didn't like car analogies?
Hitler.
Just sayin'...

At first they came for the buffers, but I said nothing because I’m not a bard . . .

Then they came for the healers, but I didn’t care because I don’t play a Cleric . . .

Then they came for the stacking bonuses, but I didn’t care because I didn’t have any . . .

Then they came for me . .. and I had nobody to HJEAL MEH!!

[fco-karatekid]

at first they came for the buffers, but i said nothing because i’m not a bard . . .

Then they came for the healers, but i didn’t care because i don’t play a cleric . . .

Then they came for the stacking bonuses, but i didn’t care because i didn’t have any . . .

Then they came for me . .. And i had nobody to hjeal meh!!

lol +1

[Scraap]

Now would be a really good time to mention any plans in the works for lateral additions, like tossing augments on the claw pieces in a mod or two.

[78mackson]

if this is true. dev team went ape sh*t on this one.. well done, your trolling senses exceeds mine!

[Alternative]

+5 enhanced stats need to go in some kind of slot, and then we can just bury the good old claw set

[DarkForte]

This doesn't affect any of my toons that are seeking claw set (since my thfer uses esos and my monk is planning for the sneak attack conflux once they reopen challenges), but I still think it's a ridiculous kick in the nuts to the people who were going for MAXXED DPS and ground out t3 mornh/celestia/whatever over many citw runs and that kept daily timers on into the deep for those elusive claw shards.

It's nothing new, though, considering what Feather_of_Sun has been doing to loot since day one though: u14 saw ALL spell clickies from Amrath, all spellpower on lob caster sticks, most of the +2 insightful items and a good amount of the old AC gear downright obsoleted in one fell swoop. It's just that DPS melees are getting the shaft this time.

[HalfORCastrator]

If anything, this change makes things better.

You know why?

With relentless fury, 3% doublestrike, and 20% armor pen, blackscale set is undoubtly the best dps armor set ingame. But it takes away the helm slot in which many are currently using for abishai set, so you'd need to either use a glove slot or a bracer slot if you want to maintain it. This makes it much more difficult to do claw set to begin with, as you are forced to choose between planar focus set (if relic weapon) or claw set, and since they don't stack with each other, what's the problem? If you aren't using a relic weapon, then you have legitly no excuse to complain as you'd have no stacking problem ANYWAYS.

If you are not using Pinion, you'd also run into the problem not having 10 seeker anymore. Guess what, EE u16 gloves have 10 seeker, but you better kiss your claw set goodbye at that point. So really, the only people who really have an excuse to complain are archers.

Now I can see you arguing "but I can just stick with my redscale and keep the stack IF they still stacked". Well...I don't know about you but, I'd take 3% doublestrike OR 20% armor pen over +4 damage anyday, the fact that you are getting both is a no-brainer deal.

Show me a melee item setup that would still be optimal that has both claw set AND relic weapon set (the only real source of stacking issue with this change), do it.

The current claw set is the best-in-slot for any pure melee dps that does damage CURRENTLY IN U16! My entire point is that u17 changes the game entirely with introduction of epic blackscale.

Hell, even the statement of it being best dps setup in u16 might not be true. Let's do a comparison of the current u16 redscale + claw set vs EE nether grasps + EE bracers of twisting shade + current (non-epic) blackscale:

+4 dmg and 10 seeker vs 15 seeker + relentless fury + 10% armor pen. If you aren't getting any kills at all, then the claw set setup is probably superior, but any kills at all would put the latter setup into a superior position

News to davyscy: Abishai set has been subpar since U14, and if not, definitely U15. Stop saying 10 over 15 seeker. Start using the Adamantine Cloak of the Wolf in your setup. 2-3 profane strength is not worth 3 slots, and the other bonuses are bad or found elsewhere.

Before U17, to me, this would be the optimal setup for dps:
helm: PDK helm
goggles: Tharne's Goggles
necklace: HP Smoke GS
trinket: Litany of the Dead/Planar Focus
armor: Cormyrian Red
cloak: Addy Cloak of Wolf
belt: FB set/Ravager
bracers: Claw
gloves: Claw
ring1: FB set/Ravager (20% amp)
ring2: tier 3 Stalker Ring (with GFL for Ravager set)
boots: Madstone Boots
wpn: ESOS/EAGA/Cleaver
(ravager if not barb)

Bracers can't be replaced by Twisting Shade without replacing the heal amp Claw set gives. The heal amp is an even bigger deal than the 4 damage. That means, for 30% heal amp, you'll need to use the bracers slot for random loot(Greater Convalescent) if you want to use the Nether Grasps.

To be honest, for me this doesn't affect Claw set. To me this affects the Prowess Conflux set. I'm even less attracted to it now.

As far as fort pen, what bosses have it now? The old bosses are not end game, so there's CITW and new GH. Do the dragons or giants have fort?

Double strike doesn't proc off cleaves, so it loses a LOT of value.

[Chai]

Not really a nerf. It just means theres more places to farm the same type of bonus. Kind of odd that "untyped" stacked with other "untyped" in the first place, since they are the same adjective.

[shadereaper33]

*Warning, the following post contains large amounts of logic. If logic upsets you, or you are allergic to it, please skip over this post*

At the risk of becoming a target for pitchforks, absolutely stacking bonuses are one of the worst things in this game. From a logical, rational viewpoint, the more absolutely stacking bonuses we have, the higher the "maximum" amount of power a character can have. This means that the hardest difficulty of content must be balanced around having that highest level of power, otherwise we get people complaining about how nothing in DDO is hard anymore. But, at the same time, you have other players who may be casual, or just not as good as the elite players, who need another difficulty to run. So the dev's create the difficulty we have now, with EE set up for the best of the best, because they have all that power and skill and want a challenge, then we have EH which is fine for most of the player base as it isn't completely faceroll, nor does it stomp your teeth in every fight. Finally, there is EN, for those who are new to the content or the game, or just not as good at this type of game.

Now, the actual problem with the absolute stacking bonuses lies with the differences between these difficulties. The elite power gamer crowd is going to have the absolute best items in every slot they possibly can, because that is how they enjoy the game. Nothing wrong with that, but it means that for EE to be difficult for them, it has to be balanced around the idea of the best builds in the game with the best gear in the game. The more power a character has, the harder that difficulty needs to be to be a challenge for that character. Then you get the rest of the crowd, that doesn't have the absolute best gear in the game, maybe they make some builds that are sub-optimal or just for fun, so the other difficulties get balanced around them. As the gap between the absolute best characters and the average gamers' character grows larger and larger, the difference between EH and EE will also continue to grow larger and larger. We can already see the negative effects this has on the game right now, as EE is so radically different from EH that there isn't any real way to prepare for EE same bashing your face against it until you figure it out.

As I said, absolute stacking bonuses are bad for the game, they are the bad form of power creep. Making the bonuses not stack absolutely, by assigning them with a type, may not be a popular decision but it is a necessary decision for the continued health of the game. More powerful effects, that do not stack with some other, similar effects, is a good form of power creep. It provides players with a path to increase their characters power level without becoming overwhelming in its effects. It may seem like random, arbitrary nerfs just to spite the player base, but I suspect that a lot of the recent changes made have been to try to curb the rate of power rise in characters in an attempt to keep the life of the game going.

/end logic

[Chai]

No I'm calling you out for being a apologist for one of the worst ideas Turbine has ever had ...

Were you around for the offer wall?

[DarkForte]

Not really a nerf.

Let's see. Today, if I have claw set and a t1 sireth with prowess conflux, I get +8 to damage and +15 prr. On lama, with the same gear, I get +4 to damage and +15 prr. Math is hard.

[Ape_Man]

/end logic

Logic is like math, and nothing has ever been solved with maths.

Get the pitchforks folks, BYO torches.

[Chai]

*Warning, the following post contains large amounts of logic. If logic upsets you, or you are allergic to it, please skip over this post*

At the risk of becoming a target for pitchforks, absolutely stacking bonuses are one of the worst things in this game. From a logical, rational viewpoint, the more absolutely stacking bonuses we have, the higher the "maximum" amount of power a character can have. This means that the hardest difficulty of content must be balanced around having that highest level of power, otherwise we get people complaining about how nothing in DDO is hard anymore. But, at the same time, you have other players who may be casual, or just not as good as the elite players, who need another difficulty to run. So the dev's create the difficulty we have now, with EE set up for the best of the best, because they have all that power and skill and want a challenge, then we have EH which is fine for most of the player base as it isn't completely faceroll, nor does it stomp your teeth in every fight. Finally, there is EN, for those who are new to the content or the game, or just not as good at this type of game.

Now, the actual problem with the absolute stacking bonuses lies with the differences between these difficulties. The elite power gamer crowd is going to have the absolute best items in every slot they possibly can, because that is how they enjoy the game. Nothing wrong with that, but it means that for EE to be difficult for them, it has to be balanced around the idea of the best builds in the game with the best gear in the game. The more power a character has, the harder that difficulty needs to be to be a challenge for that character. Then you get the rest of the crowd, that doesn't have the absolute best gear in the game, maybe they make some builds that are sub-optimal or just for fun, so the other difficulties get balanced around them. As the gap between the absolute best characters and the average gamers' character grows larger and larger, the difference between EH and EE will also continue to grow larger and larger. We can already see the negative effects this has on the game right now, as EE is so radically different from EH that there isn't any real way to prepare for EE same bashing your face against it until you figure it out.

As I said, absolute stacking bonuses are bad for the game, they are the bad form of power creep. Making the bonuses not stack absolutely, by assigning them with a type, may not be a popular decision but it is a necessary decision for the continued health of the game. More powerful effects, that do not stack with some other, similar effects, is a good form of power creep. It provides players with a path to increase their characters power level without becoming overwhelming in its effects. It may seem like random, arbitrary nerfs just to spite the player base, but I suspect that a lot of the recent changes made have been to try to curb the rate of power rise in characters in an attempt to keep the life of the game going.

/end logic

Absolute stacking bonuses are indeed bad for the game.

Giving players something for a long period of time and then taking it away is a bad marketing tactic. This is why they needed to do away with absolute stacking bonuses a long time ago, when the power creep wasnt anywhere near what it is now. Waiting until it becomes an issue and THEN making the adjustment means alot more people farmed the item(s) in question. What they needed to do is not have absolute stacking bonuses in the first place.

Same adjective = doesnt stack should be the golden rule and it should be left at that. (yes im aware that dodge bonus is an exception in P&P) - This would be a far easier concept to explain to newbies when they ask stacking questions. It would also prevent huge power creep potential.

Try explaining stacking to a newbie in its current form. Well you see same adjectives dont stack, unless its dodge or ac, where the same adjective + number doesnt stack, unless its untyped in which case it all stacks.....we can find more examples where the rule is broken than where the rule actually applies - this is the error they made - which they now have to proxy nerf the game on every update in order to rectify.