Is 17 wiz enough

[Yin]

Hear me out. I want to make a battle wiz with capable dc. I am not building with ee in mind since i have no past lives. Depending on the role i will run in either pale master 2 forms. I like the idea of increased enchantment from vampire as i love mass hold and the disco ball. Will 17 wiz and vampire form give me enough dc to reliably cast enchants and possibly wail in all must epic elite?
I could go to 18 for lich and may but even then, does the missing levels **** on higher end dc possibilities.
Or since i have no past lives and no raid equipment is my best bet to go melee first and use no save spells and negative healing for blue bar purposes?

[Therigar]

As long as you understand how your DCs are calculated you should be able to figure out if 17 levels will hurt or not.

DC is 10 + spell level + casting stat modifier + external modifiers. So, your DC can be exactly the same as any other caster's DC since your highest spell level is L9. Of course, this takes the heighten meta and the spell has to be subject to heighten. But, that is the same for those casters too.

What will be a bit lower is your spell penetration because that is based on caster levels. This means that if you have to beat spell resistance first you may be at a disadvantage. Spell penetration is d20 + caster level + external modifiers. At L17 you'll be 3 below the L20 caster.

If you can make up for that by taking extra spell penetration (in feats or enhancements) that others might not take or by having items that others might not have then you should have no issues.

Keep in mind that if you are not doing EE you will probably be fine since the DCs will be observably lower and the 3 points of spell penetration probably won't be needed.

[Yin]

Thanks. I always assume its character lvel for dc and not caster level.
I wanted an elven rave for arcane fluidity to offer up ability to wear plate. Maybe elf is the way to go since they have the spell pen line of enhancements. I was going to go helf for the dilletant and no negative to con.
Planning on stanfing in various aoe and waving sharp stuff around at whatever resists insta death.

[unbongwah]

I like the idea of increased enchantment from vampire as i love mass hold and the disco ball.

Vampire form is unpopular because you take quad dmg from light spells; which means divine casters really ruin your day.

Will 17 wiz and vampire form give me enough dc to reliably cast enchants and possibly wail in all must epic elite?

It isn't just DCs, you also have to worry about Spell Pen with Necro & Enchant spells; splashing 3 lvls costs you 3 Spell Pen right off the bat. Also, remember that lich form provides +2 INT and wiz capstone provides another +2 INT; so if you stayed pure lich PM, you'd have the same Enchant DCs as your wiz 17 vamp, +3 Spell Pen, and an extra meta feat. What exactly do you want from those other 3 lvls that's worth more?

[kilagan800]

Hear me out. I want to make a battle wiz with capable dc. I am not building with ee in mind since i have no past lives. Depending on the role i will run in either pale master 2 forms. I like the idea of increased enchantment from vampire as i love mass hold and the disco ball. Will 17 wiz and vampire form give me enough dc to reliably cast enchants and possibly wail in all must epic elite?
I could go to 18 for lich and may but even then, does the missing levels **** on higher end dc possibilities.
Or since i have no past lives and no raid equipment is my best bet to go melee first and use no save spells and negative healing for blue bar purposes?

You could go Vampire if you have the equipment to withstand light spells, but going to 18 for Lich mode is your best bet for better gameplay. Also Wraith would be a more strategic choice over Vampire since you'll have a 50% miss chance which would then give your character a better advantage when fighting mobs and what not. As a level 21 wizard PM I always choose Wraith over Lich when playing shroud.

Hope this helps.

[Jay203]

You could go Vampire if you have the equipment to withstand light spells, but going to 18 for Lich mode is your best bet for better gameplay. Also Wraith would be a more strategic choice over Vampire since you'll have a 50% miss chance which would then give your character a better advantage when fighting mobs and what not. As a level 21 wizard PM I always choose Wraith over Lich when playing shroud.

Hope this helps.

pretty sure wraith is 25% incorporeal miss chance o-o

[Enoach]

What effect having 17 Levels of Wizard vs 18 Levels of Wizard has on your DCs - Tier 3 PrE PM form +2 Int or +1 DC
What effect having 17 Levels of Wizard vs 19 Levels of Wizard has on your DCs - Same as 17 vs 18
What effect having 17 Levels of Wizard vs 20 Levels of Wizard has on your DCs - Same as 17 vs 18 plus Loss of +2 Intelligence or +1 DC to all schools (Capstone)

However, 17 levels is a -3 Spell Penetration over a Level 20 Wizard. Enchantment spells are predominantly with Spell Penetration requirements.

Vampire form does boost the Enchantment DCs. The danger is the 4x Light damage. At higher levels Divine Enemies are more abundant, which means more light spells, which unfortunately for the vampire means more ways to die. Light absorption or SPF 1,000,000 is advisable.

[voodoogroves]

Frankly, if you were going for a "battle" type wizard and spec'ing Pale Master ... DCs aside, I think you want PM 3 just for the amp it gives your aura.

DCs should be similar between 17 and 18 levels of wizard though, if you work at it.

[kilagan800]

pretty sure wraith is 25% incorporeal miss chance o-o

Whoops, you're right. I was at work and didn't have the game in front of me.

[Yin]

I appreciate everyones feedback.
I figured i would use wraith in those quests that i needed a little more defense or when there are too many divines about.
I was torn about the build as i wanted to see if i could make a melee capable pm that could land lvl 9 or below spells. Torn between max str or int. would go the int route and draconic and fight in as much aoe as possible "if" the spell pen would be enough to be addquate for a mass hold or even, dare i say, a wail.
Lvl 17 was the sticking point as power word kill is no save so having that is a no brainer for me. Feats are paramount on the build so i needed 2 monk 1 fighter. Needed elf for arcane fluidity. End of the day, though, if my spell pen just wouldnt cut it in most content then id go str route and just use no save aoe and aura for healing.

[Jaid314]

from what i hear, 17 levels would be fine for EH provided you otherwise have decent caster level increases such as from epic destiny and/or being an elf wizard with the enhancement line chosen.

that said, if you want an EE-capable wizard, go evocation archmage in the shiradi destiny, and spam magic missile/chain missile SLAs, the actual spells (unmeta'd), and meteor swarm (unmeta'd) from what i hear. you should be able to twist in some decent self-healing with a bit of work. no DCs or spell pen required for this to work (though obviously, having the DCs for the AOE on your meteor swarm to work is better than not having it, and having the DC to land other spells is not exactly bad news either).

you probably wouldn't have the spell pen for EE without past lives in that shiradi archmage build, but you won't need them, since your source of damage isn't dependant on saves or spell pen.

[samthedagger]

Either I missed it or you didn't state it. What do you plan to do with the other three levels? Ftr2/Wiz18 isn't a bad way to go for a battle-mage. You will miss out on some Int and Spell Pen, but get the extra combat feats you really need to be effective in melee. I don't really see the need for three extra levels, but I don't know your plan.

[squishwizzy]

I'm confused about the "battle" monikor. You talking melee, or something else?

If you are talking melee, Avalon has a Death Knight equivalent. However, it stops at lvl 12 (or thereabouts). Wraith form with fortification, incorp., and whatnot is more along the lines of what yo need for melee. And as people pointed out: Vampire? I don't even want to think what Running the the Devils would do to you...

The rest of this post is basically me thinking out loud.

As for enchantment spec, I think you're looking at something with diminishing returns there. People have pointed out your loss of spell pen, which is somewhat important in enchantment spells, and will figure into epics, even epic hard. I'd look at Conjuration and Web. It is more melee-friendly than something like a disco ball, with the longer cast times. The irresistable dance maybe...if you get past spell pen. I'd think you better luck is in something like elemental spells and buffs to enhance DPS outright.

As far as forms, I wouldn't work with multiple forms. I'd stick to one. If you go level 17 as max wiz, you'll pass on lich, you'll only have wraith and vampire, and wraith benefits you more in a melee capacity than vampire. The only other alternative is Zombie, and that comes with an INT penalty. If you step up to 18, I really don't see you being all that effective as a melee toon given you only have 2 fighter levels. You're more wizzy than you are melee, so what's the point of trying to be front-line? Which might explain why Avalon's build stopped being a wizzy around lvl 12.

Anyhow, just some food for thought.

[unbongwah]

The main problem with melee gishes in DDO is pure arcanes put out so much caster DPS already that there's little incentive (besides flavor) for watering down your spells just to add melee. Add feat shortage and MADness and it's an easy way to gimp oneself.

A more heavily-MCed gish is in some ways preferable (see my Wraith Blade for one example), if only because the gimp factor is more self-evident from the level split. There the idea is your spells are for buffs, self-healing (either thru Repairs on WF or death aura on PMs), and some DPS from no-save spells (like Melf or Ice Storm), to support the melee DPS.

I'm hopeful that when the Enhancement overhaul finally comes out - and more specifically the racial PrEs are finally done - we'll have some interesting options for melee arcanes (esp. arcane tanks). But who knows how much longer we'll be waiting for that?

[Mubjon]

I am doing a melee capable wizard and took 2 fighter levels 10 wizard levels so far, going to go Lich form of course and the fighter bonus feats I took shield mastery feats as I equip a shield and like the extra AC/PRR. Using greater twilight armors is nice with medium right now til I get the last bit of enhancement.

[legendlore]

If 17 levels is enough depends on what you primarily want to do, if you mainly want to cc and wail (as you mentioned) and be able to do so in epic elite I'd recommend staying pure on a first life character. If you envision the character as a melee with casting ability you could probably even do with a bit less levels of wizard.

Do note however that you can stay pure and still get a bit of melee feel for the character, just using Tensers transformation or Masters touch can go a long way to get some variation on the characters play style.

You could also build for a more varied build focused on epic hard instead of epic elite, that's not saying you wouldn't be able to do epic elite (just that it isn't the characters main focus). I generally find that 90% (your experience may be different though) of my gaming takes place in epic hard rather than epic elite so if a build is more fun there why not build it for the place you game the most?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Easiest way to make a battle capable DC caster is to cast tensers trasformation and equip a 2 handed weapon. At low levels, masters touch will do. Your melee dps will be pretty weak, but if you are standing in a firewall with your aura going, ya may as well start swinging. The good thing about this is it doesnt gimp your build, it just gimps your dc while the spell is running, but in places where you would prefer to do persistant aoe dps instead of instakilling, that doesnt matter.

On the other hand, if you were trying to make a melee wizard, and take things like thf*3, power attack, cleave, great cleave, overwhelming crit and run in legendary dreadnaught... you can just forget about dc casting at that point, and dump int, max str.