Legendary Dreadnought and Cleaving

[Kinerd]

So I finally got enough EP to get Lay Waste on my fighter, and I took some measurements (thanks xfire!). I used a lootgen greataxe because that's what my TWFer happened to have on hand. My character was a level 22 fighter with no alacrity.

Auto-attack control: 164 attacks in 2 minutes 0.12 seconds = 81.9 animations per minute.
(This is slightly lower than Vanshilar's tested 86.5 apm for 0 alacrity. My computer is not very good and I was recording video, so this makes sense.)

Next I attacked in this order of priority:
1. Lay Waste
2. Momentum Swing
3. Great Cleave
4. Cleave
5. regular attacks
So if at any point LW went off timer, my next move was to hit LW. If LW was on timer but not MS, MS. And so on. If other people have different attack schemes, I'm all ears.

Over 5 minutes 2 seconds, I recorded...
28 Lay Wastes
59 Momentum Swings
49 Great Cleaves
48 Cleaves
68 first attack animations
47 second attack animations
37 third attack animations
12 fourth attack animations

The first surprising thing is that this works out to only 69.1 apm, 84.4% of the control rate. This stands in stark contrast to the Cleave Twitching scheme used in the glory days of Supreme Cleave.

The second surprising thing is that I got a lot of Lay Wastes considering MS is only supposed to have a 25% chance to reset the duration. Has anyone rigorously tested the reset chance for MS on LW?

.

We can now compare DPS between the two styles with a few givens...

-Epic Antique Greataxe (2*1d20 + 6, 19-20 x3 base, Force Burst)
-Pure barb (+3 multiplier on 19-20, 6d6 damage on all glancing blows)
-GTHF (combined with above a total of 60% damage and 20% magical on glances, glances on the first, third, and fourth regular attacks)
-Total base damage of 113 (shamelessly copied from A_O's spreadsheet, includes EAG base damage)
-Seeker of 10, Ravager set (again copied from the spreadsheet, Ravager has 100% proc rate on glances)
-No sneak attack (because I don't know how it works on cleaves and because it's a small relative effect anyway)
-No haste, haste boost, etc. (because I don't know how it works with Cleave Cleaving)

...and our attacks...

-Lay Waste gives +5W and +1 multiplier.
-Momentum Swing gives +5W and +3 range.
-Great Cleave gives +2W.
-Cleave gives +1W.
-All of the above have 100% glance rate.
-Attacks 1, 3, and 4 have 100% glance rate, attack 2 has 0%.

.

So per each attack, we have:
base + glance + vicious/ravager + seeker + force + burst

Per LW:
(113+5*10.5)*(17+2*7)/20
+0.6*(113+5*10.5)*19/20
+28*19/20*2
+2*7*10/20
+19/20*3.5*1.2
+2*11/20
=
416.15 damage

Per MS:
(113+5*10.5)*(14+2*6+3*3)/20
+0.6*(113+5*10.5)*19/20
+28*19/20*2
+2*6*10/20+3*3*10/20
+19/20*3.5*1.2
+5*11/20
=
454.4 damage

Per GC:
(113+2*10.5)*(17+2*6)/20
+0.6*(113+2*10.5)*19/20
+28*19/20*2
+2*6*10/20
+19/20*3.5*1.2
+2*11/20
=
334.97 damage

Per C:
(113+1*10.5)*(17+2*6)/20
+0.6*(113+1*10.5)*19/20
+28*19/20*2
+2*6*10/20
+19/20*3.5*1.2
+2*11/20
=
313.76 damage

Per 1st, 3rd, or 4th attack:
(113)*(17+2*6)/20
+0.6*(113)*19/20
+28*19/20*2
+2*6*10/20
+19/20*3.5*1.2
+2*11/20
=
292.55 damage

Per 2nd attack:
(113)*(17+2*6)/20
+28*19/20
+2*6*10/20
+19/20*3.5
+2*11/20
=
200.875 damage

This works out to 368 single target DPS against 0 fort with auto-attack. Please note: this is not a "haha barbs have lousy DPS" thread. We're just trying to see how much of an improvement Cleave Cleaving gives in a particular set of circumstances. Shockingly, it only works out to 376 single target DPS against 0 fort with Cleave Cleaving.

If instead of 113 and 10 we try leaving them as variables, we end up with...
Autoattack: 70 + 2.563 * base + 0.819 * seeker
Cleave Cleaving: 108 + 2.307 * base + 0.789 * seeker

The various +Ws give C-C a hefty head start, but the various +crits aren't enough to match the speed advantage autoattacking enjoys when it comes to damage per base. If we threw in the huge increases in base (and for that matter Seeker) that we saw in MotU, autoattacking is more damage than spamming these attacks. If we throw in the Devastating and Overwhelming Criticals, the gaps increase in favor of autoattacking: from (.256 and .030) to (.298 and .073) respectively.

.

The only possible saving grace I can see for C-C is if it gets more out of alacrity increases, but I'm reasonably sure that's not going to work. I don't have the precision testing ability Vanshilar does so I can't go frame by frame, but I'm reasonably sure that all the tactical attacks are flat times: don't get slower or faster. This suggests that autoattack will get even further ahead in the more realistic case of Haste and Haste Boost.

.

.

tl;dr: While spamming Cleaves/MS/LW is certainly a way to increase AoE damage, for top end builds/gearsets it looks like it reduces single target damage.

[Vellrad]

your tl;dr conclusion is nothing new- cleave and great cleave are not designed to single enemy combat, as they got slower animation.
Anyway, my rotation is:
1. Lay waste
2. Momentum swing (if lay waste is reset, then goto 1)
3. Great cleave (if lay waste is reset, then goto 1) (if momentum swing is reset, goto 2)
4. Cleave (if lay waste is reset, then goto 1) (if momentum swing is reset, goto 2)
5. Anvil of thunder
6. auto attack, then goto 3, unless laywaste/momentum swing timers expired on their own.

tl;dr: I add anvil of thunder.

[aradelothion]

I've noticed this as well, and often stop chaining cleaves at prolonged single-target fights (bosses). Where the cleave chain shines IMO, aside from of course facing multiple mobs, is the very real possibility of just outright one-shotting them as soon as they get in range.

[Vissarion]

Nice calcs, as usual.

Kinerd, have you crunched much in the way of numbers for THF versus TWF with maxed out destiny stuff? I've been curious, since it seems like everyone is speccing for THF now due to the synergy with LD and Overwhelming Crit pre-reqs.

[Kinerd]

Nice calcs, as usual.

Thanks!

Kinerd, have you crunched much in the way of numbers for THF versus TWF with maxed out destiny stuff? I've been curious, since it seems like everyone is speccing for THF now due to the synergy with LD and Overwhelming Crit pre-reqs.

In fact, that was the primary motivator for doing these measurements, so that we could do such comparisons. I did not expect that Cleaving would result in less single target DPS, but given that TWF was clearly ahead for single target pre-u14, it makes the conclusion easy: TWF is the superior single target DPS combat style post-u14.

1. Two khopeshes gets more out of OC (and DC) because glancing blows don't crit. They went from 1.8 * 27 = 48.6
to 1.8 * 31 = 55.8, or +7.2. An eSoS went from 31 + .75 * .6 * 19 = 39.55 to 35 + .75 * .6 * 19 = 43.55, or +4.0. (While someone could twist in Wild Weapons, that would obviously put them way behind whatever TWF twisted in instead now that it has been fixed.)

1b. This also means two khopeshes get even more (+3.2) per damage bonus than they did before, while only losing slightly more (-0.4) per Strength. There are no new sources of Power Attack, so THF doesn't get any help there.

2. Two khopeshes get more out of Seeker effects at 28.8x vs. 23x, so our influx of Seeker favors them as well.

3. Two weapons clearly still get way more out of magical effects, which is somewhat less relevant although we did get new toys like Tunnel Vision, Tempestuous, Meteoric, Obscenity, etc.

4. Two weapons clearly still get way way more out of sneak attack, which could be enormously relevant due to Shadowdancer. The key is that TWF LD is ahead of THF LD, so if TWF SD is ahead of TWF LD all the better. Inter-destiny (and inter-class for that matter) comparisons are a lot more complicated.

[Djeserit]

I am not a math person, but this confirmed my intuitive feel.

Also, I found that when I tried to watch the timers to coordinate the cleaving and the wasting and etc.,

I wasn't paying attention well to other stuff that was going on, like who needs a heal.

So in practical terms it wasn't helping my play much.

****

A totally other topic I would love to hear your opinion on,

the value of the Khopesh feat in the present game.

With all the things that can increase your crit multiple on a 19-20, it seems like the difference between khopesh and scimitar is LESS than it used to be.

Seems like if you were feat limited, you could just skip it and go to scimitars any time it's difficult to hit.

[Cetus]

The resets on momentum swing and lay waste are currently bugged.

A lot of your resets don't actually do any damage and just provide you with the animation.

I started a thread about this in the lamannia bug section.

[Kinerd]

I am not a math person, but this confirmed my intuitive feel.

Also, I found that when I tried to watch the timers to coordinate the cleaving and the wasting and etc.,

I wasn't paying attention well to other stuff that was going on, like who needs a heal.

So in practical terms it wasn't helping my play much.

****

A totally other topic I would love to hear your opinion on,

the value of the Khopesh feat in the present game.

With all the things that can increase your crit multiple on a 19-20, it seems like the difference between khopesh and scimitar is LESS than it used to be.

Seems like if you were feat limited, you could just skip it and go to scimitars any time it's difficult to hit.

The relative increase for khopesh over scimitar has certainly decreased, but it's still the equivalent + power increase of Overwhelming Critical (27 - 25 = 2). I think the change of proficiency from flat to % to-hit would really make it hard to avoid losing significant damage to to-hit failure.

The resets on momentum swing and lay waste are currently bugged.

A lot of your resets don't actually do any damage and just provide you with the animation.

I started a thread about this in the lamannia bug section.

That's good to know, it might explain how I (thought I) got so many LWs, too. It's hard to say for sure but I would guess this makes the case for CCing weaker if/when it is fixed: the main drag on DPS is using Cleave and Great Cleave, and if anything I'd be using those slightly more if I needed MS resets more.

[scoobmx]

Thanks for this, I was looking for some similar data to include into my weapons modeler (now I can use it as a sanity check for the theoretical numbers it puts out).

I'd like to request if possible, that you measure the animation times of these special attacks?

Also it is NOT true that a 25% reset chance means that Lay Waste should happen 25% as much as Momentum Swing. I have a thread on this somewhere in the guides section on calculating weapon damage. If you think very carefully about how this works I believe you can show the average cooldown is reduced by a greater amount than 25%.

[scoobmx]

Here is the thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=394433

Mathematics for Lay Waste cooldown:
59 momentum swings in 5 minutes 2 seconds ~= 11.72 momentum swings per minute = 5.12s average cooldown
Starting from time 0, do momentum swing and proc .25 probability for lay waste cooldown to be 0s. Next, .25*.75 probability for 1st momentum swing to fail proc and second to succeed for lay waste cooldown of 5.12s. So on...:

Sum( 5.12*(n-1)*.25*.75^(n-1), n = [1,12] ) + 60*.75^12
Check: Sum ( .25*.75^(n-1), n = [1,12] ) + .75^12 = 1 so probabilities sum to unity
Result: 14.83s average cooldown for lay waste ~= 20.4 lay wastes per 5 minutes 2 seconds

So this is less than what you got, though not but as much as a naive guess. Not sure if you got lucky, or there's something truly wrong with the reset chance, or the hotbar icon bug is interfering.

+1 for the thread, and another +1 waiting for you when the animation times are measured.

[Kinerd]

Thanks for this, I was looking for some similar data to include into my weapons modeler (now I can use it as a sanity check for the theoretical numbers it puts out).

I'd like to request if possible, that you measure the animation times of these special attacks?

I would love to do this, but my equipment is not that sophisticated. My videos are pretty choppy to start with, I don't know how to (or if I even can) go frame by frame in the video playback software I have. My advice is to try and convince Vanshilar to do it, he's really good at it.

+1 for the thread, and another +1 waiting for you when the animation times are measured.

Thanks! and sorry to disappoint, respectively.

[Ellihor]

Have you tried attack 1, attack2, cleave, attack 1, attack 2, cleave... priority for lay waste > momentum swing > great cleave > cleave. Also, at least with 2hf i think momentum swing strikes twice. Really intrested for the results, i myself LRed my 2wf when i couldnt keep blitz in a quest while the stalwart defender of the group with SoS could

[Kinerd]

Have you tried attack 1, attack2, cleave, attack 1, attack 2, cleave... priority for lay waste > momentum swing > great cleave > cleave. Also, at least with 2hf i think momentum swing strikes twice. Really intrested for the results, i myself LRed my 2wf when i couldnt keep blitz in a quest while the stalwart defender of the group with SoS could

I have not, but I will if we ever get word that the bugs are fixed.

My guess is that it will end up between AA and CC, or if anything provide a very slight single target DPS increase to AA. The effective cooldown of MS is already above 5 seconds, spacing it out will only push that cooldown up both directly and indirectly through less Cleaves. We'll lose less to slow animations but gain less from using less powerful attacks.

[Inouk]

*necro - brought here by another thread*

Good work. My experience with my TWFing tempest is that momentum swing is horribly, horribly slow in it's animation. I actually stopped twisting MS in Fury in favor of LW; despite having no way to recharge LW it just has much greater utility for me. It always feels like I lose about 3 attack animations (which is 6 attacks for me) when I use MS. I'm curious how your #'s would work out if you just skipped MS altogether but left in the cleaves and LW which seem to be much faster by comparison (though LW won't recharge as fast). In other words I think the cleaves may do enough damage to compensate for a very small increase in animation time whereas I think MS does not.

Great thread BTW, you hear over and over that TWF just can't keep up since EDs were added because of the synergy of THF with both Fury and LD, but this apparently isn't accurate. Multi target will favor THF, but against any bosses or EE trash you will mostly try to fight single targets, so this is important.

[Kinerd]

Thanks!

I never measured it systematically with TWF. That's another thing I will look at if the phantom-cooldown thing is ever fixed.

[Nitesco]

I find Cleave/Great Cleave help break through the slower 3rd and 4th animations of the attack chain. I will Lay Waste/Momentum swing whenever those are off cooldown. Otherwise a good rythm I find is:

Great Cleave
1st attack
2nd attack
Cleave
1st attack
2nd attack
3rd attack
4th attack
1st attack
2nd attack
Great Cleave
and so on

I'm always working towards building Master's Blitz, so I will cycle through attacks in that manner until Lay Waste/Momentum Swing is available then back to Great Cleave/Cleave.