The end of DC-casting?

[fork_aka_spoon]

This, very much.

The solution to this problem is to lower the enemies WEAK saves only. And in my opinion to do so significantly.

If they do this the game would simply become too easy, why does no one understand this? Making mobs more difficult to cc will require more party balance, teamwork, and smarts to take these mobs down. I don't think the idea for this game is to make every single mob helpless and let the players stand there beating on them and taking no damage in return. Our characters can be built to have insanely high saves versus everything, why can't mobs be the same? Should we all have a significant penalty to one of our saves based on our class?

[Vellrad]

Yeah sure, DPS and heal only will make game so interesting.

[fork_aka_spoon]

Yeah sure, DPS and heal only will make game so interesting.

Yes actually it does, go run ee quests and raids with no cc, it definitely makes things more interesting.

And is beating on helpless mobs all day supposed to be interesting...?

[Ellihor]

If they do this the game would simply become too easy, why does no one understand this?

We don't want the game to become too easy, we just want balance between DPS and DC casting. Currently its very hard to not run out of sp while soloing EE on a dc based caster, while its much easier in a first life shiradi dps. This is wrong. A multi TRed character focused in dc should be able to kill an enemy with less sp usage than 1st life nuker, that is not what is happening actually.

[fork_aka_spoon]

We don't want the game to become too easy, we just want balance between DPS and DC casting. Currently its very hard to not run out of sp while soloing EE on a dc based caster, while its much easier in a first life shiradi dps. This is wrong. A multi TRed character focused in dc should be able to kill an enemy with less sp usage than 1st life nuker, that is not what is happening actually.

How can there be balance there? It's called nuker for a reason. If a dc caster is able to cc the mobs it's most likely going to take quite a long time to kill the mobs. If a dc caster could solo as easily as a nuker there would be imbalance since the dc caster would be able to make the mobs helpless, and kill them quickly. I'm not sure how to explain exactly what I'm saying, but I feel like I may have made sense.

I do understand what is being said, but disagree highly with it. A pm for example can solo easily, but no I don't think it should be able to do it as quickly as a dps caster. That being said however I wouldn't mind dps casters being nerfed.

[count_spicoli]

EE is not for solo play. You have 3 easy button levels for soloing. Leave epic elite alone for those of us who actually like to group and have a challenge. And fo be honest most ee's in a good group are becoming snoozefests. I can assure you in some epic elites a shirardi with no cc is going to have big problems.

[pezuwarrior]

First off, it is most definitely possible to build a toon that can reliably cc high road. Although not every player will do this, I put a ton of time into my sorcerer. He is currently able to hit 62 web dc buffed up with cookies. The mobs make some of the saves, but it actually give me something to do. In other ee content I just throw one web and its all over for that fight. Not very fun.

Secondly, you can solo many ee's using a dc caster approach. It's the only way my human sorc can. It's just takes patience and skill. I was considering quitting the game before u14 due to the insane lack of challenge. I'm now happy to say that quests such as eecitw and high road keep me entertained.

I want everything in this game to be made harder, while still keeping lower difficulties for players who don't wish to put the work in.

[Zerkul]

First off, it is most definitely possible to build a toon that can reliably cc high road. Although not every player will do this, I put a ton of time into my sorcerer. He is currently able to hit 62 web dc buffed up with cookies. The mobs make some of the saves, but it actually give me something to do. In other ee content I just throw one web and its all over for that fight. Not very fun.

Secondly, you can solo many ee's using a dc caster approach. It's the only way my human sorc can. It's just takes patience and skill. I was considering quitting the game before u14 due to the insane lack of challenge. I'm now happy to say that quests such as eecitw and high road keep me entertained.

I want everything in this game to be made harder, while still keeping lower difficulties for players who don't wish to put the work in.

Could i have a breakdown of you web DC? And charisma if possible.

EDIT: You know 62 DC on web is quite high and i think people here might want an explanation since we're discussing about EE and DCs. If that's a stars aligned score i wouldn't even consider it.

[Thrudh]

if cc lands on half the mobs the healer better be able to keep the melee up.

This is the problem with this debate... If my CC catches half the mobs (plus you can run them through it multiple times to catch them again, and there's always irresistable dance), it's viable and makes a real difference in a quest..

But the people complaining here are not satisified if unless they can solo and insta-kill 95% of the time.

It's OKAY if there are some quests that are easier with a full party. Teamwork is not evil. When you're talking about end-of-game top notch elite content, I would expect it to be hard, and require multiple players to beat. Nothing wrong with having to use symbol of death or energy drain or mind-fog or crushing despair or hypnotism on epic elite. Nothing wrong with letting the melee kill a few things, because it's too SP-expensive to try to kill EVERYTHING with a caster.

You don't get to waltz through epic elite with zero tactics like you did epic hard.

[Thrudh]

Currently its very hard to not run out of sp while soloing EE on a dc based caster

Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.

[Zerkul]

Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.

Some build can SOLO EPIC ELITE content, some others cannot or have harder time doing it: soloing ability is one of the parameters one can take into account for classes balancing purpose.

[slimkj]

OFFTOPIC: Sorry for this slight offtopic, but i got a question for you, not aimed at anything or anyone in particular, that's just my line of tought.

Would you ever build a character on something which is not WAI?
This is my opinion: I wouldn't because something that is not WAI will one day be fixed by developers

If it was clearly not WAI, then no because a) it'd probably make things too easy and b) I know I'd be wasting effort as it'd be gone soon.

If it was a PrE or ED that was released, stable and the norm for some time, then yes. People should be able to rely on fairly static rulesets otherwise they will just feel they are peeing into the wind, wasting time investment just waiting for the rug to be pulled from under them.

[Ancient]

Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.

When I came up with my first toon that could solo Ee elite using my own build, it meant something because epic elite is difficult. I still cannot solo Ee devil assault. The mob dps is higher than what my toon can deal with. The answer is not to nerf the quest, but to group.. Or if I am focused on solo then either change my tactics or my build/equipment.

If a group can do it, the quest is fine. If a class can contribute (in a meaningful way) to a group completion then that is fine too.

The only tidbit I'd add is that the most quests should be non-soloable due to difficulty and not because of cheap mechanics like pull two levers at once.

[Karavek]

Frankly I unlike many seem to be, can look on this far more unbiased at least from the position of caster vs non caster. You see my casters eventually gave up gave in and TRed only to end up shelved because of a number of factors from missing the old character I had effectively thrown away for trivial power increase for an unacceptable amount of grind to being to OP compared to my my RL friends I managed to get to check out the game with the coming of FR while leveling ruining their own first time experience.

That for me seems the ultimate flaw with TRing in general. TRs dont really have any business running normal dif with new players. A gap between new and old virtually impossible to get past if they dont get over themselves and add past lives to the store one of these days soon.

Time as a barrier in MMO is not really acceptable. I know that sounds like the exact opposite compared to what alot say, but the fact is that an older MMO with the time factor as a barrier becomes insurmountable for new players. New players dont want to take time building up by playing through content that is really only fun the first time through. DDO did this to itself with overly static content. Same reason trap skills have become seen as something only used to get abit more XP.

You cant make an MMO to appeal to hard core players is just the way it is. Most hard core competitive natured people also want very smooth and stable play experiences. This is why so many gravitate towards heavily funded in development FPS games. Some are getting ever more effective at the solo role play immersion experience. MMO on the other hand are becoming an ever bigger joke even among their own player community.

Look at the way we describe them now days. Grinding,farming, virtual jobs, time sinks. We dont call them fun, entertainment, hobbies, or even see them as part of our R&R time anymore.

I think back to my fondest MMO experiences on the now lost to us game city of heroes I recall many enjoyable casual encounters. From being able to anytime I logged on find a random mission group and enjoy the actual playtime and banter with others rather then stress over a failed run. Failure wasnt an option there because quest completion gave trivial xp compared to killing mobs. This meant players in lvling mode rarely wanted to leave missions early, they hungered for the blood of their foes. If you had capped your character and where doing it for the reward merits, then you might go for speed, which didnt hurt lvlers it just meant they would end up with more merits then a typical lower lvl guy who usually didnt know yet about merits and their awesome use. Which was to let you buy anything from an in game vendor and save a ton of cash that could get soaked up fast if you tried buying them on the AH from the farmers.

You could just play whatever content at whatever lvl range you wanted once capped, still find challenge, earn viable rewards for your character, and thanks to side kicking and exemplaring never make the content feel to high or low a lvl for others. They even had amazing coding for giant monsters and holiday event spawns that rumor had was going to eventually become the way the game worked. This was to make each ragions mob have a hard set of stats, but with a sliding scale on dmg and dmg resistance that was based on their target. imagine mobs that a low lvl and a high lvl can fight at the same time, with the high lvl guy sometimes hitting softer then the low lvl because of the adaption to a high lvl dmg output. likewise a blow that might one shot a squishy high lvl guy might not do much to a low lvl tank in the same fight. If the game had lived and one day they had removed lvls from mobs it would of been a glorious day in MMO history that now likely will never come.

End game has nothing to do with teaming. trying to hide the best gear and xp behind a gateway meant for groups,is the same as trying to force grouping and doomed to failure. People dont play games to feel second best, and dont always have the time nor inclination to team with others. Countless single player games with great challenge exists, making content require teams is not real challenge, just inflated numbers that wont do other then punish the casual minded player.

The fact is in D&D after a certain lvl range, especially in 3E+ D20, power specifically magical power is the only thing that matters. No human barbarian will ever have a chance against an elven blade singer or battle dancer for example. Physical power has limits that magic cannot. Hell per an issue of dragon and a letter to skip or monte the frenzied berserker was never made with the idea any player would take it. It was meant and made entirely as a tool for DMs to create highly dangerous if short lived foes for the players.

What alot of players want when they make one is to really be a dwarven battle rager. A racial PRC that in 3E+ got watered down, but in 2nd Ed was a glorious raging weapon of destruction who rarely made it past lvl 6 at least in my groups.

the fact is DDO has gone to far down the hole, and I wont be at all surprised if WOTC picks up its ball and takes it away from turbine completely once NWO launches.

These days I myself am preaching screw MMO, invest in hard games you OWN once you purchase and can play whenever you want for the rest of your life.

[Ape_Man]

But the people complaining here are not satisified if unless they can solo and insta-kill 95% of the time.
.

Nobody is saying that. Take you weak strawman arguments somewhere else and go troll a different thread.

[WruntJunior]

This is the problem with this debate... If my CC catches half the mobs (plus you can run them through it multiple times to catch them again, and there's always irresistable dance), it's viable and makes a real difference in a quest..

But the people complaining here are not satisified if unless they can solo and insta-kill 95% of the time.

It's OKAY if there are some quests that are easier with a full party. Teamwork is not evil. When you're talking about end-of-game top notch elite content, I would expect it to be hard, and require multiple players to beat. Nothing wrong with having to use symbol of death or energy drain or mind-fog or crushing despair or hypnotism on epic elite. Nothing wrong with letting the melee kill a few things, because it's too SP-expensive to try to kill EVERYTHING with a caster.

You don't get to waltz through epic elite with zero tactics like you did epic hard.

And a first-life wizard can go another DC down to get the spell pen to use against most drow (I believe a first-life elf could hit 54, as my drow wizard was at 53 with 1x FvS and 1x Wizard past life).

A fully maxed-out caster should be working at least 85-90% of the time as a DC caster without having to do significant debuffing or use many short-term items...it makes no sense that people with COMPLETIONIST palemasters (in other words, the highest necro DCs sustainably obtainable) are not hitting those levels of success. DC casting should be a comparable option to DPS casting, and I'm not saying DPS casting needs a nerf - instead, DC casting needs some sort of bump. I personally see no problem with dropping saves by 5 on all enemies, and keeping saves at sane levels like this fixes most of the issues.

Note that this wouldn't even be much of an issue if enemies actually had a weak save.

The sentiment I posted here is the one that most of us share - that those with the maxed out sustainable DCs can't even hit a majority-of-the-time success without debuffing, so those of us who are missing things will spend a significant chunk of our SP debuffing.

Standard debuffing (like throwing a mindfog on a disco ball) is no problem to me - I got used to doing this when I was CCing with a 39 enchantment DC around u8 on my first wizard, and have done it since. Having to neg level, hypno, curse, and crushing despair an enemy just to get a hold to stick, though, is ridiculous...much better to just use DPS. Realizing that the majority of my time as a wizard would be spent laying debuffs thick to get things to work in EE made me TR - and as we saw with pre-u9 Epics, requiring arcanes to be one-trick-ponies to succeed in content is bad, which is the type of state DC casters are in right now. This is why many of us with casters near the top (or at the top...I could get my sustainable necro DC 2 points higher with the palemaster I just TRed out of, and that requires a +5 int tome and completionist) of DCs in our chosen area (necro was obviously my chosen as a palemaster, with enchantment as a secondary) are realizing how bogus it is and TRing into builds where we can really have fun as an arcane again.

Trying to solo EEs on a DC caster will show you just how weak they are - each of the three builds in my bio can solo EEs, though my sorc hasn't been tested by me yet - as a DC caster, I was barely helpful to a group in EE (as soon as pretty much any debuffs wore off, any enemies I had CCed that were still alive suddenly weren't...and my insta-kills never performed to my expectations as reliable abilities), much less able to either effectively or efficiently get things killed solo without swapping to a DPS destiny and changing parts of my character over from debuffs.

[Nitesco]

why not make a web bot? it works. if ur building for 56 necro dc then you obviously (or most likely) won't be able to cc well, its just not doable. is the dc in ee high road lower than other servers or something? ive run through the chain with so many people who cc it easily. obviously its not going to land every single time as its not easy mode setting, its epic elite.

making a 55/55 dc caster is pretty simple too if you put time into it.

I love these posts, they bring me right back to the 2010 mentality where players talk about grind as if it's an achievement they enjoyed labouring at. Some players ground insanely to be able to pull off a 'cool' spectacle that most players with average time or mental health constraints couldn't. They want to stay ahead of everyone else, heaven forbid that they should be effective without 'paying their grinding dues'.

So what you're essentially saying is that with multiple past lives, every feat and enhancement, every ED and twist, every best-in-slot item and every tome and power bump you can buy from the store, you can achieve an EE viable DC for 1 spell? That sounds like a whole lot of work and not a whole lot of fun to me, especially considering the alternatives.

[Ape_Man]

I love these posts, they bring me right back to the 2010 mentality where players talk about grind as if it's an achievement they enjoyed labouring at. Some lot of players ground insanely to be able to pull off a 'cool' spectacle that most players with average time or mental health constraints couldn't. They want to stay ahead of everyone else, heaven forbid that they should be effective without 'paying their grinding dues'.

So what you're essentially saying is that with multiple past lives, every feat and enhancement, every ED and twist, every best-in-slot item and every tome and power bump you can buy from the store, you can achieve an EE viable DC for 1 spell? That sounds like a whole lot of work on not a whole lot of fun to me, especially considering the alternatives. This thread isn't just about how easy the game should or shouldn't be, it's about

Or you can dump DCs all together and don't bother because it's been priced out of reach.

[Daemoneyes]

Ding Ding Ding!

Bring some friends then. The game should NOT be made easier because people are having a hard time SOLOING EPIC ELITE.

Failed your read check or the following logic check?
EE should either be soloable for all classes or none.
It should not be that some builds can solo it easy and other require multiple PL and hardcore equip to be at best meh in EE.
And no i dont talk about gimp builds, i mean perfectly build chars that should be able to run it but are not because balance is wrong.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Balancing insta-kill has always been a problem in this game unfortunately .. in retrospect adding AOE insta-kill may have been a design mistake.