Old Cleric, time to TR

[Sojourner]

I have an old 28-point cleric that I'm about ready to TR. The end-goal is for him to remain a cleric.

My question is - should I run him once or twice through another class before settling back into Cleric?

I'm looking at:
* Sorc - 20 spell points and +1 DC for Evocation (Soundburst, Searing Light, Implosion, Firestorm, Blade Barrier, etc)
* Wiz - +2 spell pen
* FVC - +1 spell pen, +20 spell points

20 SP doesn't seem like much. And not sure if if +1/+2 spell pen is worth an entire life on a class I'm not terribly interested in running this guy as.

Wanted to hear what others thought about the Spell Pen / DC - does 1 or 2 make a real difference.

[Syllph]

If you're not really interested in this guy why not turn him into a shelf class build? A build that you keep on the shelf only for specific purposes?

I also had a 28 pt. cleric that I didn't like playing, and I've recently TRed him into a spell singer chest blesser. This makes all the casters in the group perform better and gives raid-wide loot bonus of +1 to chests up to 3 times.

I found I never played my cleric, but the bard I bring much more often (I still don't like playing him, but at least I do play him)

______

but to answer your initial questions: spell pen is huge. +2 for your greater command and implosion is pretty amazing (+3 fvs +3 wiz = +9 spell pen).

Likewise with +1 to any DC.

[Sojourner]

Love playing him as a cleric, and plan on going back to cleric as the final build. It's the "do I want to spend time as a wizard" I'm waffling on.

The only frustration I have on him is punching through the SR on some mobs, and occasionally their making saves against some spells.

Although he doesn't currently have any spell pen feats either though. He rocks at healing, but is only so-so at melee and offensive casting. Back at level cap 10 and and even 14 I wasn't coming across much he couldn't get through to. But, after coming back to the game I'm noticing around the level 16-18 range he's starting to have a harder time.


So, I'm thinking a wizard life, along with a rebuild of feats and enhancements should make the difference.

[Syllph]

Yeah, that's fair.

What about wizard life do you not enjoy? Perhaps I could offer some suggestions to make it less painful.

[Sojourner]

I can't smash stuff with a big stick

In general, in any MMO, I'm very rarely a spellcaster class. Healer seems to be the exception. I generally have one healer, one big-club-fighter, and then a raging case of altaholism baby characters.

In DDO, never had a Wiz past level 8, never had a Sorc or Bard past 4. It isn't really "OMG, I can't stand this class" so much as "hmm, think I'll log in and play <insert_any_alt_except_wizard_here> tonight". Before TR was added, I think it was mostly a lack of desire for an end-game wizard. With a goal of running through a life or two and then turning into something else going into Epic levels it shouldn't be a problem.

Looking at builds, I'm thinking a Warforged Archmage (Enchant/Conjur)-18 / Rogue-2 build. Basically a generic support character. CC / Buff / Disable. With a focus on acid for damage. He'll mostly run duo or in groups, but it should give him enough self-sufficiency for those solo nights.

[SirValentine]

My question is - should I run him once or twice through another class before settling back into Cleric?
<snip>
20 SP doesn't seem like much. And not sure if if +1/+2 spell pen is worth an entire life on a class I'm not terribly interested in running this guy as.

Wanted to hear what others thought about the Spell Pen / DC - does 1 or 2 make a real difference.

If you don't care to work Spell Pen up, still consider at least one Wizard past life. Not for the passive +2 Spell Pen, but for the active feat, which is +1 to ALL DCs. After that, any additonal lives you wanted to do, Sorc would make sense.

Note that you could get quite workable Spell Pen for eHard Drow (but not EE Drow) even without any past lives contributing to it.

P.S.: Extra Cleric lives aren't bad either; bumping Cometfall (CC with no Spell Pen check!), and more turns for burst/aura.

[Syllph]

I can't smash stuff with a big stick

In general, in any MMO, I'm very rarely a spellcaster class. Healer seems to be the exception. I generally have one healer, one big-club-fighter, and then a raging case of altaholism baby characters.

In that case, if you're only going to TR anyways......

Master's Touch is a level 1 spell + (insert big stick)
Max CON and STR
Take 11 levels wizard + 9 levels fighter (11 wiz to guarantee the past life, 9 fighter for the BAB and feats)
Take tenser's transformation

Whoop tail.

[Badnade]

In that case, if you're only going to TR anyways......

Master's Touch is a level 1 spell + (insert big stick)
Max CON and STR
Take 11 levels wizard + 9 levels fighter (11 wiz to guarantee the past life, 9 fighter for the BAB and feats)
Take tenser's transformation

Whoop tail.

I just ran my wiz all the way to lvl 10 swinging the greataxe from chrono.. very easy and quick.
I dont even have good STR.
The combo of a few low lvl spells and master touch, (not needed if you have ftr lvls) covers most basic mob fights.
Firewall/acid rain handles the rest.

[Bacab]

I recently TRed my old Dwarven Battle Cleric (18CLR/2FTR).

He is going to be a Clonk (18CLR/2MNK).

Loving it. The 34 point build is nice.

I went dwarf because I already I have another Cleric at cap who is Human.

My questions to you are these...

Have you TRed before?
*If not, the XP is much worse
*Life 1>Life 2 not a big deal in XP
*Life 1>Life3 is wayyyyy worse

Bang for your buck...1>2 Life is worth it...especially if you are going from 28 points to 34!

Are you a Caster Cleric? A battle Cleric? An Evoker?

If your 3 favorite spells are...
Implosion
Destruction
Greater Command

You should definitely get WIZ PL.
The Passive PL gives you a +2 Spell Pen
The ACTIVE PL gives you a +1 to each spells DC...

WIZ Active PL gives +1 DC to everything...
Implosion>>>Evocation
Destruction>>>Necro
Greater Command>>>Enchantment


Personally, I have played all kinds of Divines...
*Healbot (they suck)
*Melee Divine (super fun and can shine in certain groups)
*Caster (Probably the strongest build solo-wise)


To me...my "Main" is a 17CLR/2MNK/1FTR that uses EMarilith Chain and stays in Legendary Dreadnought...I crit for over 1.5k...He is really fun...IF there is someone to crowd control for me. I do more damage than a "Real" melee if they are in a junk ED. But if they are in a good ED...they do a lot more than me.

For short-manning, I think a caster Clonk is really nice. Stunning Fist and the GMoF ED is just great.

I twist in that LD +6 DC's twist and crowd control with that.

Oh yeah, the CLR PL is a nice bonus for the extra healing burst/aura.

But I TRed because I WANTED to play the toon again from 1-20. Not to get more powerful (though the extra build points on a Clonk helps with qualifying for TWF feats)

Anyway, my Clonk Build
16 WIS+ level ups here
14-16 CON (depending on Race)
15 DEX (hope you have a +2 tome)
8 INT
10-12 CHR
Rest in STR

Feats
1 TWF
1 (monk bonus) Stunning Fist
3 Empower Heal
6 Maximize
8 Toughness
9 ITWF
12 Empower
15 GTWF
18 Quicken
21 Heighten or Improved Crit
24 w/e you want

If you go Human, you can move the feats around more easily.

[Bacab]

Oh...

TLDR...

For a Caster Cleric...

WIZ passive PL=Free Feat
WIZ Active Life=3 Feats for the Prices of 1

Absolutely consider doing this.

[Vellrad]

TR into favored soul, you will see all the differences between both healer classes, and if you find you like it more than cleric stay fvs, if not, TR to cleric.

[firemedium_jt]

In that case, if you're only going to TR anyways......

Master's Touch is a level 1 spell + (insert big stick)
Max CON and STR
Take 11 levels wizard + 9 levels fighter (11 wiz to guarantee the past life, 9 fighter for the BAB and feats)
Take tenser's transformation

Whoop tail.

You don't need the FTR for BAB if u use a Divine Power item click. ML5 or 3 racial.

I ran a self healing robot like this without using Tenser's. He was a pure Sorc, but it can be WIZ. Kinda like a Cleric, but you can still melee and cast more offensive spells/DOTs. Heal yourself very well as a caster robot. Master's Touch and Divine Power item click was it. Swung a keen Falchion and melee'd so well in pug groups they were wondering when I was going to cast a spell besides repair/reconstruct. I did cast mostly for just boss fights up to lvl8. Then stone xp him. I was really tempted to take Power Attack feat, lol, but I wanted to get his Sorc metas for all his nuking at lvl16. If I had to grind him lvl 1-10 I would probably take Power Attack and then swap it out later for more meta feats.


tenser's transformation:
Causes the caster to become a virtual fighting machine becoming stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat (they got this from the Bionic Man tv show). You gain a +4 alchemical bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +6 alchemical bonus to Armor Class, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level. Your spellcasting ability is reduced, resulting in a -2 penalty to all spell DCs, -2 to your rolls to bypass enemy Spell Resistance, and doubling the cooldown of your spells.

It does look like they changed it so that the str bonus alchemical stacks with Divine Power, but the the spell disadvantages may not be worth it. And you really don't need this to melee well at Heroic lvls if you click a Divine Power item.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=392034


Divine Power (item is caster lvl7 for 7 HP and no need for spell point use to cast it):
The divine power of a god imbues the caster with power and skill in combat, granting a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, 1 temporary hit point per caster level, and a base attack bonus equal to a Fighter of the same level.


I ran a half orc melee cleric till lvl19 as a CLR__/Wiz1. Took the WIZ1 at lvl2, and FTR2 at lvl19 and lvl20. He melee'd great and took all his Cleric spell power meta feats and Toughness early for Radiant Burst heals. Most pugs like when you melee if you are also burst healing them Only melee feats he had till late lvls were Toughness, Power Attack and Improved critical Slash as soon as he could have them. I might have taken Cleave early with curespewing or a Paralyzer weapon.

[firemedium_jt]

And the best part was when my half orc melee clr16/wiz1 showed up on the scene with that big Paralyzer falchion in his hands and got the rut rohs from the newbies worrying if they were gonna get their healbot heals. You can imagine the looks up and down players must have give this Half Orc Healer with that big arse sword.

And as a Warforge self healing robot Sor8 it was hard not to melee when u have 30% more hp than pure melee newbie pugs and know with that keen falchion of pure good with festive icy burst on it u would out dps them. And only having to worry about healing yourself... well as long as the whole party was not Warforged.

[susiedupfer]

Do the FVS life first. If you can tolerate that, then think about perhaps stepping into sorc. Sorc is a really fun class. And if you do the Helf- you can do a FVS dili for self healing. Then you can alternate sorc/FVS or step into Wiz. Your choice. But Sorc active PL is sweet: sp and a clickie.
And sorc and FVS both give SP as passive PL feats. And FVS x 3 and sorc x3 give 120 sp total in passive feats.

[Sojourner]

In that case, if you're only going to TR anyways......

Master's Touch is a level 1 spell + (insert big stick)
Max CON and STR
Take 11 levels wizard + 9 levels fighter (11 wiz to guarantee the past life, 9 fighter for the BAB and feats)
Take tenser's transformation

Whoop tail.

LOL --- I had actually considered that. But, Tenser's is a level 6 spell and so doesn't show up until Wizard level 11. Which means there is a long gap there between the last of the fighter levels and the 11th level of wizard where you are effectively getting weaker each level compared to the mobs. It might be something to play around with on an alt though.

TR into favored soul, you will see all the differences between both healer classes, and if you find you like it more than cleric stay fvs, if not, TR to cleric.

Yeah, that was my second option. +1 Spell Pen for FVS instead of +2 for Wiz. (The extra +20 spellpoints for FVS being minimial). But, think I'm going to do 1 life as Wizard, 2 if it turns out to be quick and fun.

_____

For those that know Wiz - here's the build I'm looking at. I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the class, so any suggestions are welcome. Basically looking at CC / Buffing / Disabling on a Wiz/Rogue. Most quests will be duo or with a group, although warforged with repair spells and an acid focus for damage so some solo ability.

* Final skill numbers are without gear, so I think he should be able to hit the Search and DD numbers.
* Can't remember what I have for tomes on this guy, but I know there isn't any INT. If I can get hold of one, the extra skill points would go into balance.
* Do I have the feats/enhancements set up right for Enchant/Conjour?
* Is that the right pairing for CC focused archmage?
* Is there any spells I should take instead of this list. I know there's a few you can't buy and so should get as training instead. Wall of Fire I took for that reason. Any others that are "must have" from trainer? D-Door maybe?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Emeril Sojourner
Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Male (2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 

Abilities
STR: 14          14
DEX: 8           8
CON: 18          24 (+6 item)
INT: 18          32 (+1 at 4/8/12/16/20, +3 enhancement, +6 item)
WIS: 6           8  (+1 at 3/7, as the +2 tome kicks in again)
CHA: 8           14 (+6 item - worn as needed)

Levels
Level 1: Rogue
Level 2-9: Wizard
Level 10: Rogue
Level 11-20: Wizard


Skills           (Level 20)
Balance               3  (upto +15 item and +13 with +2 int tome = 31)
Concentration         30
Disable Device        29 (+7 tools, +15 item, +3 INT item, +4 GH spell = 58)
Haggle                3
Jump                  6
Repair                11
Search                29 (+15 item, +3 INT item, +4 GH spell = 51)
Spot                  9
Swim                  6
Tumble                3
Use Magic Device      22 (+4 GH spell, +3 Cartouche, +3 for +6 CHA item = 32, acceptable for 35 needed for raise dead emergency scroll)

Feats:
Level 1: (Selected) Toughness
Level 2: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Enchantment
Levle 3: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Level 6: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Level 6: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Evocation
Level 9: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Level 12: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Level 12: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Level 15: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Level 17: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Levle 18: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell

Enhancements:
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation VII
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting VI
Enhancement: Deadly Acid V
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration III
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
Enhancement: Wizard Archmage IV
Enhancement: Archmage Spell Mastery II: Enchantment
Enhancement: Archmage Secondary Spell Mastery I: Conjuration
Enhancement: Conjuration I - Grease
Enhancement: Conjuration II - Web
Enhancement: Enchantment I - Hypnotism

Spells:
Level 1: None, Rogue Level
Level 2: Hypnotism, Magic Missile, Niac's Cold Ray, Repair Light Damage, Sonic Blast, Sleep, Nightshield
Level 3: Acid Spray, Obscuring Mist
Level 4: Repair Moderate Damage, Web
Level 5: Melf's Acid Arrow, Otto's Resistible Dance
Level 6: Haste, Repair Serious Damage
Level 7: Rage, Heroism
Level 8: Wall of Fire, Stoneskin
Level 9: Repair Critical Damage, Phantasmal Killer
Level 10: None, Rogue Level
Level 11: Acid Rain, Hold Monster
Level 12: Dimension Door, Feeblemind
Level 13: Cloudkill, Greater Heroism
Level 14: Reconstruct, Acid Fog
Level 15: Finger of Death, Mass Protection From Elements
Level 16: Banishment, Mass Hold Person
Level 17: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Level 18: Mass Invisibility, Power Word: Stun
Level 19: Mass Hold Monster, Summon Monster IX