Quicken, on a melee druid? really?

[Mirvar]

if you don't have quicken in EEs you're useless and dead, below that doesn't matter what you have

In epic hard im a palemaster demigod but in the Epic Elite im a stone in someones backpack not worth ressing , i dont need quicken in epic hard because they cant kill me and in Epic Elite my quicken doesnt matter at all because i die in a blink , 2 blinks if i accidently hit my NEB.

I think its a matter of gameplay also , but if you played a pm for 25 levels or even TR so you played the class in lets say 44-50 levels, you know when to hit hold monsters/charm or a dance or wail before "oh ****" happens.

with that said , when i play my sorcerer and after that log my pm i can feel the use for quicken just because i like the fast casting , but we wizzez are low on sp and dont want to drain the sp pool on useless things.

A feature that i use maybe once or twice per week or month are useless , but that just me

regards Mirvar

[Dolphious]

I agree with most of the posters that quicken is essential to self healing in EE.

That said wisdom based pure wolf druids just don't have enough feats to take everything that is "essential" to do both meaningful DPS and get meaningful DCs in EE.

A "melee wolf" really needs:
Toughness
Shield Mastery
Improved shield mastery
IC: bludgeoning
Natural fighting 1
Natural fighting 2
Natural fighting 3
Power Attack

That's 8 feats, so you get 1 more for a pure druid. 2 if you're human, but that's borderline gimp DPS also since you're missing out on 10.5 sneak attack damage per hit.

Then you need Spell focus evocation if so you can twist the magistar and draconic +DC abilities if you even want a prayer of your earthquake/snowslide/jaws of winter working in EE.

Then you go human (and lose all that Sneak attack) and you can take either maximize or quicken. And even then your DCs are going to be pretty gimp for EE without stuff like Wizard past life, greater/epic spell focus, heighten.

It just can't be done. It's not so much that the OP is making a bad choice is that whole class is flawed in that the most "obvious" build (wisdom based druid 20 wolf) just doesn't work in EE. Sure you can start cutting your DPS feats, but at that point why bother, just roll a real caster.

So since the build just doesn't work in EE, it's an EH build. And at that point I say, yeah, drop quicken. It's less useful than maximize in EH.

[Mubjon]

I agree with most of the posters that quicken is essential to self healing in EE.

That said wisdom based pure wolf druids just don't have enough feats to take everything that is "essential" to do both meaningful DPS and get meaningful DCs in EE.

A "melee wolf" really needs:
Toughness
Shield Mastery
Improved shield mastery
IC: bludgeoning
Natural fighting 1
Natural fighting 2
Natural fighting 3
Power Attack

That's 8 feats, so you get 1 more for a pure druid. 2 if you're human, but that's borderline gimp DPS also since you're missing out on 10.5 sneak attack damage per hit.

Then you need Spell focus evocation if so you can twist the magistar and draconic +DC abilities if you even want a prayer of your earthquake/snowslide/jaws of winter working in EE.

Then you go human (and lose all that Sneak attack) and you can take either maximize or quicken. And even then your DCs are going to be pretty gimp for EE without stuff like Wizard past life, greater/epic spell focus, heighten.

It just can't be done. It's not so much that the OP is making a bad choice is that whole class is flawed in that the most "obvious" build (wisdom based druid 20 wolf) just doesn't work in EE. Sure you can start cutting your DPS feats, but at that point why bother, just roll a real caster.

So since the build just doesn't work in EE, it's an EH build. And at that point I say, yeah, drop quicken. It's less useful than maximize in EH.

You get 2 more epic feats, so you would have 3 feats as a human, or 2 more as any other race. Go Helf with rogue dilly for another +3d6 sneak attack damage and take maximize and quicken or spell focus feats if you want more DC for epic feats.

So for a melee wolf druid you could take all the feats you suggested and SF: Evo and maximize and have some spell dmg ability (greater cold for example) and help with your self healing on an Helf. Or you can go human and have quicken as well.

You are not going to be awesome sauce with melee and casting with the limited feats that a druid gets. Could splash 2 fighter and get the shield mastery feats for the bonus. But, then you are giving up the capstone that lowers casting time for wolf builds greatly.

[Dolphious]

You get 2 more epic feats, so you would have 3 feats as a human, or 2 more as any other race. Go Helf with rogue dilly for another +3d6 sneak attack damage and take maximize and quicken or spell focus feats if you want more DC for epic feats.

So for a melee wolf druid you could take all the feats you suggested and SF: Evo and maximize and have some spell dmg ability (greater cold for example) and help with your self healing on an Helf. Or you can go human and have quicken as well.

You are not going to be awesome sauce with melee and casting with the limited feats that a druid gets. Could splash 2 fighter and get the shield mastery feats for the bonus. But, then you are giving up the capstone that lowers casting time for wolf builds greatly.

Nope, I was already counting epic feats. 9 total feats, 10 if human, including epics.

And really I was being to generous saying you just need spell focus and two twists to have usable EE DCs, as you really need more than that.

[Viisari]

At level 25 you really don't fail casts much even with 15 mobs beating on you. I've been there, done it, had quicken, never turned it on, and didn't fail casts often enough to care. Naturally I maxed out concentration.

Now go do that on EE and come back to report the results.

Naturally all those points in concentration will be completely worthless.

[Mubjon]

Nope, I was already counting epic feats. 9 total feats, 10 if human, including epics.

And really I was being to generous saying you just need spell focus and two twists to have usable EE DCs, as you really need more than that.

I did not count the feats, thought it was a level 20 only post. Not every build is set up for epic elite. I was just saying that even without the Meta feats for casting. The character could still cast some spells that do not require so much to make work. Creeping cold for instance is a really good spell for a melee druid as is purity,

[Dolphious]

I did not count the feats, thought it was a level 20 only post. Not every build is set up for epic elite. I was just saying that even without the Meta feats for casting. The character could still cast some spells that do not require so much to make work. Creeping cold for instance is a really good spell for a melee druid as is purity,

Sure, but then there's no point in going wisdom based, which is why I said "wisdom based pure wolf druids just don't have enough feats to take everything that is 'essential' to do both meaningful DPS and get meaningful DCs in EE."

If you're dumping DC you might as well go STR based. Of course once you abandon DCs your just DPS/heals and you've got to compare that druid to other DPS/heal only builds like Sirgog's Radiant Titian. I don't think the comparison is going to be favorable to the druid.

[unbongwah]

If you're dumping DC you might as well go STR based. Of course once you abandon DCs your just DPS/heals and you've got to compare that druid to other DPS/heal only builds like Sirgog's Radiant Titian. I don't think the comparison is going to be favorable to the druid.

You're forgetting a couple of factors, I think. One is that even as a STR-based wolf druid, you still have access to a couple of decent no-save DPS spells, namely (Greater) Creeping Cold and Ice Storm, which meshes well w/Winter Wolf abilities. Another is that as a wolf druid, you will have Essence of the Shrike, which will provide 20 temp SPs from 20% of your attacks once you have IC:Blunt. That helps make up for having fewer SPs than other divines. You'll be using those temp SPs constantly to help you spam spells during combat, whether it's extra DPS, heals, buffs, etc.

[WruntJunior]

You're forgetting a couple of factors, I think. One is that even as a STR-based wolf druid, you still have access to a couple of decent no-save DPS spells, namely (Greater) Creeping Cold and Ice Storm, which meshes well w/Winter Wolf abilities. Another is that as a wolf druid, you will have Essence of the Shrike, which will provide 20 temp SPs from 20% of your attacks once you have IC:Blunt. That helps make up for having fewer SPs than other divines. You'll be using those temp SPs constantly to help you spam spells during combat, whether it's extra DPS, heals, buffs, etc.

Greater Creeping Cold is occasionally negative DPS, as I have seen it override my Niac's many times.