Rebellion for rogues?

[bhgiant]

Here's the first look at the new Rogue weapon.

Ok, ok, I know, I was thinking the same thing. "What the **** is this piece for?" But before you write it off completely, lets look at it a little bit closer.

Base damage - Good
This weapon is one die step up from normal, has 2.5 dice multiplier, and expanded threat. Imp Crit: Piercing really shines here. ~24/hit without imp crit, ~27 with

Damage/Attack mod - Good
Either STR or DEX. This is awesome if you are a dex rogue. There have been a lot more Dex rogues since the update due to Improved Sneak Attack requiring a base DEX score of 21. If this trend continues, I can see DEX/INT rogues becoming a lot more mainstream.

Rebellion - Good
25% reduced threat is never a bad thing for a rogue, but what makes this effect worth it is the 13-78 added piercing damage on a crit. Remember how this has an expanded crit range? Again, Imp Crit: Piercing really shines here. ~7/hit without imp crit, ~14 with

Sneak Attack Bonus +5 - Adds no inherent value
Because every decent rogue already has this on an item already. And chances are if you are running this raid, you are a decent rogue. You don't want to have to rely on equipping a specific weapon in order to get that bonus to hit and damage. SA on an item like Tharnes Goggles or the Tinker set is much more reliable.

Armor Piercing 15% - Ok
Situationally useful. It doesn't add a whole lot of value but it's a nice perk. Chances are if you equip this weapon, it's not for the armor piercing. I'm not UTD with the fort on mobs and bosses though.

Improved Deception - Good (maybe?)
As a rogue, soloing with deception is never a bad thing. It also stacks with deception equipped on an item. There once was a bug where the mob hit with the effect would aggro you (VERY problematic in raids where the tank is trying to hold aggro) but I'm not sure if that was corrected (hence the maybe).


So the item itself is pretty good overall. Here's the real question though. What weapon in your arsenal is it going to replace??? If you are soloing, you are running with Radiance weapons or Radiance + Epic Midnight Greetings in the off hand. The blindness effect is just too good to give up soloing. The real value in this weapon is when you are grouping and don't have to worry about aggro. This weapon deals more true damage than any other rogue weapon that I can think of (Edit: Agony is comparable, definitely wins if the target bleeds, Rebellion is definitely the highest damaging weapon with DEX as it's Attack/Damage mod though). Also, if you really get down to it, with the +5SA it also allows you to replace the Tharnes Goggles or Tinker set for something else like Dream visor while grouping.




FINAL VERDICT
This looks like a great group weapon that won't see much play just because it doesn't mesh well while soloing. If the +5SA was replaced with a +3 Assassinate DC, I could see this being much MUCH more popular. As far as grinding out gear though, I'm putting it on my "Nice to have, far from necessary" list.

[bhgiant]

Looks like I forgot to change the title. It should read something like "A First Look at Rebellion". Rebellion is definitely for rogues, no question about it.

[SableShadow]

It's on my "Must have it, because ... because ... Rogue!"

Needs a few tweaks, though, to become a primary anywhere.

The enhanced crit range is good, as is the proc, but I think the Superior Heartseeker needs to be switched out with Mangling and an Assassinate DC bump (+2 or +3) needs to be swapped in for the +5 SA.

Edit: Actually, after punching it up in Barrage, I think adding a couple of points of enhancement to it (like, say, upgrading it to +10 max or adding a flavor of Clever Strike) and adding the Assassinate DC bump would do it.

eMG still has utility with slashing and imp para (along with the rest of its fruit salad), as do eEnvenoms (with the imp para + enervate combo), and Agony (at tier 3) has a little more damage.

Edit of Edit: I don't see them bumping this up such that the dps equals Balizarde (for example); I'd like it if they made it an equivalent dps/assassinate weapon to eMG, however. Where the later gets imp para, this would get additional fort bypass and lower threat. At least I could swap out of imp crit slash. :P If they matched the DPS and gave it a little more assassinate DC, I'd be tickled pink.

[Aliss7]

"13-78 Piercing damage" ... sad to see turbine sticking to this "die notation".

[Gkar]

"13-78 Piercing damage" ... sad to see turbine sticking to this "die notation".

Yeah, they have pretty much given up on pretending that they care about the D20 system at all.

[Dandonk]

Yeah, they have pretty much given up on pretending that they care about the D20 system at all.

This. Sadly.

[Dolphious]

Yeah, they have pretty much given up on pretending that they care about the D20 system at all.

It's 13d6, so it's not like they're abandoning the die rolls, they just put it in the spread notation. I'd rather they had some standardized way of stating this stuff like, "13d6 [13-78]" but whatev. I've got a lot less problem with that then I have with the older stuff like lightning strike and incineration that have no listed damage and no listed proc rate. As long as I can calculate the damage "by hand" relatively quickly I'm fine with it.

On the sword, I don't see how it's worth it for a well geared STR based rogue as it just doesn't do that much damage (even with the 2.5d8), but it might be OK for an undergeared or dex based rogue. If my math is right it's the highest damage one hander with dex to damage.

I understand the desire to make weapons that are interesting in ways other than banging out the average damage and taking the highest, but stuff that is very likely to be slotted on body slots just isn't that useful on a weapon.

Take armor piercing. On the black dragon armor it's great because you can combine it with your DR breakers on boss, with your triple positive GS on undead, etc. But on a weapon like this, that's just not very good at damaging the enemies that likely have high fort, it looses a ton of it's shine.

If I were designing it I'd drop SA and armor piercing and add aligned and metaline. That way it would be the first dex-to-dmg DR breaker, and it would fit thematically as "treason: the weapon that breaks though all defenses and slays kings" as DR breakers are primarily used on boss mobs. That way you fit a niche that doesn't exist without upping the dmg/hit power creep.

[voodoogroves]

If I were designing it I'd drop SA and armor piercing and add aligned and metaline. That way it would be the first dex-to-dmg DR breaker, and it would fit thematically as "treason: the weapon that breaks though all defenses and slays kings" as DR breakers are primarily used on boss mobs. That way you fit a niche that doesn't exist without upping the dmg/hit power creep.

I'd have it come with a red and orange and have the sneak pre-slotted in the orange (so you can remove it).

[lethargos]

Why is 15% armour piercing only ok ?
It seems like a essential ability for rogue to me ?

[destiny4405]

i don't like the name.

as the matter of fact, i really hate the name.

EDIT: orange or purple slot should be added. it would have some use then and dr breaking capacity. maybe instead of +5 SA.

increased base damage and crit range are very nice, but everything else are abilities we already have (like imp deception) or have enough (haven't had any threat problems since destinies came out). more fort bypass is nice, but i'm not really sure if it stacks with other AP abilities (i'm imaging those black armors will be the choice for most).

[Tid12]

Quoting myself from another thread:

I have one big disappointment:

There is not really a Rogue's Weapon (Rebellion is weak at the moment) and yet again there is no other item with Assassinate +DC.

Every other tactic (I know Assassinate isn't but let me put it in that category at the moment) can go up to +10 on NON-WEAPONS (<- Important part) while rogues are FORCED to use the same EMG from Update 9 (?) with just a +2 DC. Not even a +3 or +4.

Give that Rebellion a +3 Assassinate DC. This will make it much more appealing. Or, if you don't want to put it on the Rebellion, put the +3 DC on a Named Blue Augment in this Raid/BackStabber's Gloves and give another d8/Expanded crit range of damage to the Rebellion. Sneak Attack +5 is mostly useless to everyone, since most of us have them on another item.

[bhgiant]

Why is 15% armour piercing only ok ?
It seems like a essential ability for rogue to me ?

If armor piercing were put on an item slot, I think I would put it on my "essentials" list, but until then, it gets overlooked. The problem with armor piercing is that it ties you to one weapon that is usually not best for the situation. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've ever noticed a high fort trash mob other than undead and constructs. Undead you use Distruptors, constructs you use Smiters. Bosses have high fort but you generally use special DR bypass weapons for them (i.e. Holy Burst Silver GEOB for Harry). Rebellion has no DR breaking ability so there is no reason to use it on a boss.

[Dolphious]

I'd have it come with a red and orange and have the sneak pre-slotted in the orange (so you can remove it).

Yeah, even better.

[Ryiah]

So the item itself is pretty good overall.

To be honest it looks a lot like an "I'm too lazy to get decent gear" weapon. The Armor Piercing 15%, Improved Deception, and Sneak Attack +5 are all available elsewhere. This leaves you with, at least for the base version, an effect that is basically Superior Heartseeker. That it is effectively a rapier and can use DEX versus STR is about the only thing interesting me at the moment.

Hopefully the upgraded version will be more enticing.

[Dolphious]

To be honest it looks a lot like an "I'm too lazy to get decent gear" weapon. The Armor Piercing 15%, Improved Deception, and Sneak Attack +5 are all available elsewhere. This leaves you with, at least for the base version, an effect that is basically Superior Heartseeker. That it is effectively a rapier and can use DEX versus STR is about the only thing interesting me at the moment.

Hopefully the upgraded version will be more enticing.

Upgrade is:
T2: +8 enhancement bonus
T3: 20% Armor Piercing

[bhgiant]

Upgrade is:
T2: +8 enhancement bonus
T3: 20% Armor Piercing

The +8 is nice but the 20% armor piercing... Unless a weapon can bypass dr it's not going to be used in boss fights where the armor piercing is really going to matter. This upgrade essentially adds nothing.

[LeLoric]

Just posted this in the main raid loot thread but heres my thoughts on the sword


Rebellion: While this looks decent it just doesn't do anything better than whats already out there except reduce threat. I can't think of any specific situation where I would rather have this over at least one of the following other offhand options, Agony, Epic envenomed blade, Epic smallblade, or a 2nd balizarde. Then add many rogues also like to have epic midnight greetings offhand. Biggest problem is most characters will have most of the abilities of this sword in other wanted spots. Sneak 5 will be most anywhere else, Imp deception is fairly common elsewhere also, I'd guess many people wanting this would also want black dragon armor which covers the armor piercing.

The +8 is nice but the 20% armor piercing... Unless a weapon can bypass dr it's not going to be used in boss fights where the armor piercing is really going to matter. This upgrade essentially adds nothing.

I have to disagree with this statement as tier 5 innate shadow dancer changes all this.

With precisions 25%, this 20%, 15% from grim precision, and 10% off opportunist you are dealing with at best 30% fort and the sneak attack immunity removal of tier 5 is up pretty regularly. This means undead/constructs/elementals/plants are regularly getting sneak attack numbers at roughly 50% of the time and as such you don't need to change away from crit dependent weaponry like balizarde etc. As such I think 20% armor piercing is a very nice ability the problem though is black dragon armor is going to be best in slot for rogues and it will have the same bonus.

[redspecter23]

I think the +5 sneak attack bonus starts to look a lot better if you were looking to regear some slots that held that bonus previously. Tharne's Goggles are almost certainly not an option any longer after looking at the Dream Visor. You could free up other gear slots that had the bonus previously and upgrade to more flexible new GH items with slots. The MotU ring without any slots is still good, but I have no issues replacing it and freeing up the slot for something new either. This weapon allows that flexibility.

[LeLoric]

I think the +5 sneak attack bonus starts to look a lot better if you were looking to regear some slots that held that bonus previously. Tharne's Goggles are almost certainly not an option any longer after looking at the Dream Visor. You could free up other gear slots that had the bonus previously and upgrade to more flexible new GH items with slots. The MotU ring without any slots is still good, but I have no issues replacing it and freeing up the slot for something new either. This weapon allows that flexibility.

I dont think tharnes is the issue at all. The two biggest culprits are seal of house avithoul and the new backstabber gloves. Both not only carry the sneak attack +5 but also exc +3 and imp deception as well as some other things. I dont think you can consolidate better than either of those two items with the sneak attack 5 on the sword.

[voodoogroves]

I dont think tharnes is the issue at all. The two biggest culprits are seal of house avithoul and the new backstabber gloves. Both not only carry the sneak attack +5 but also exc +3 and imp deception as well as some other things. I dont think you can consolidate better than either of those two items with the sneak attack 5 on the sword.

Exactly why I'd love to see Sneak moved to an Orange slot, so that this could at least be a mid-range base item you could farm up multiple of and use for other reasons.

This right now has too many overlaps with things you'll want on constantly for a highly-swapped item like a weapon.