Rapiers vs. Scimitars

[Qnevven]

Hey everyone

I've recently come to a decision to LR my bard to change some of the feats that i no longer require.
The build is 16 bard 2 rogue 2 fighter drow (first lifer and is going to stay that way) using scimitars

While playing with character planner i stumbled upon a tough decision to make.

Maybe some background - my build was originally 18bard/2rogue - and the choice to use scimitars (proficiency granted through warchanter enhancements) was made back then - she was fighting using scimi + shield.
Some time ago i did a LR and added 2 levels of fighter for more feats and some fighter enhancements - adding fighter has given me also a wider range of weapons to choose from (all martial) but have not changed anything regarding weapon of choice at that time.

Also - some time ago i gave up the shield in favor of two weapon fighting (since the AC now matters even less than before and i can never get decent AC on bard without giving up evasion)


So now i need your advice

Should i stay with scimitars?
Should i change to rapiers?
Should i perhaps add 1 feat and go with Khopeshes?

The pros and cons are the following as i see it:

- If i go rapier i can add +2 dmg from racial enhancements
- If i go either rapier or scimitar i can get improved 2wf, cleave, greater cleave and overwhelming critical at epic levels to increase the crit multiplier to x3
- If i go khopesh i will get higher base dmg and higher crit multiplier, but i will not be able to get overwhelming critical without sacrificing either improved 2wf or Inspire Excellence - both of them are dealbreaker for me (why bother with 2wf if i can't get at least 60% offhand attacks, and what kind of bard would i be without epic song) - i'd probably go with additional toughness and greater strenght instead and not bother with cleaves


As for the weapon choices
If i stay on scimitars i would be using epic Kron'zek's Cruelty, epic brigand's cutlass and maybe drow scimi if i drop one - i currently use epic elyd edge in offhand which isn't optimal, i know
If i go rapiers i would be using lvl 20 Elemental Rapier of Air (from cannith challenges), Epic Elyd Edge, and if i ever happen to drop drow rapiers and balizarde (from CitW)
If i go Khopesh - well - no idea what i'd be using - i have monster using peshes so he gets the priority in all the shiny weapons of this kind


So what are your thoughts?
Any help is appreciated

[Bacab]

Drow= Rapier

Also what will you use as your level 21 and 24 Feats? I know this is your question.

Thoughts on using 2HF? Like an Antique GAxe or ESoS? Can save some feats if you wanted.

I have always gone all 3 TWF feats or none at all. But that is just me.

Also do you already have Scimi's and Rapiers or Khopesh made? (greensteel or epics)

Is it possible you TR?

If you TR...

Human=Khopesh
Elf=Scimitar
Drow=Rapier
Dwarf=Dwarven Axe

So biggest questions...

Will you TR? If so what Race?

Do you already have some nice named weapons on this toon?

Oh yeah...have you made any Green Steel?

Does Druid interest you at all if you TRed? (then scimitars for sure)

Oh yeah...or if you were to say TR into a Clonk or 18FVS/2MNK you may want to check out the religious weapons of those races (Scimitars>LongSwords)

[Vellrad]

1. LR into rapier user (u got khopesh user already)
2. See what you prefer (rapier/scimy)
3. Stay with whatever you like more, after you know which 1 is it.
4. ???
5. Profit
6. Realize that elves are inferior race, and become a dwarf.

[Therigar]

i can get improved 2wf

Why don't you have ITWF and GTWF now?

You are giving up so much in off-hand attacks that it really seems counter intuitive to be using TWF to begin with. If that is your approach it seems to me you would have been better off staying with sword & board and using bastard swords OR going with THF.

[Qnevven]

Why don't you have ITWF and GTWF now?

You are giving up so much in off-hand attacks that it really seems counter intuitive to be using TWF to begin with. If that is your approach it seems to me you would have been better off staying with sword & board and using bastard swords OR going with THF.

Sword & board has low dps output
If i go with your suggestion to use either bastard sword or dwarvenaxe with a shield i would have to use at least 4 feats - 3 feats for 2hf line and 1 feat for exotic weapon proficiency - and i do not have that many feats to spare.
I'd have to drop greater 2hf - but then there would be exactly same problem with not enough glancing blows...

2hf is not really my style - i have barbarians to do that for me - although i'll have to wait and see - maybe mad lute revamp will change my mind

[Qnevven]

Drow= Rapier

Also what will you use as your level 21 and 24 Feats? I know this is your question.

As i noted in the first post
it will be Inspire Excellence and most likely Overwhelming Critical (if i decide on scimitars or rapiers)

Thoughts on using 2HF? Like an Antique GAxe or ESoS? Can save some feats if you wanted.

How exactly would i save feats? both lines require 3 feats to max offhand or glancing blows at 80%
The only diffence is that i would not have to get my dex up to qualify for TWF (17 dex for improved and greater TWF)

I have always gone all 3 TWF feats or none at all. But that is just me.

For a pure melee i couldn't agree more - but note that i am a bard and i need to reserve some feats for that purpose - for example Extend Spell or Inspire Excellence on levels 21+
So yeah - i could go with all 3 TWF feats but then i would not have enough feats to get 2 cleaves to qualify for overwhelming critical - and having +1 crit multiplier is something i really really like
I have tested it on my monster build with khopesh and loving it... (i mean LOVING !!)

Have not done the math in excell but i think 20% more procs from offhand is less DPS than +1 crit multiplier on critical hits from both hands (keep in mind that seeker bonuses are in work)

Also do you already have Scimi's and Rapiers or Khopesh made? (greensteel or epics)

Is it possible you TR?

If you TR...

Human=Khopesh
Elf=Scimitar
Drow=Rapier
Dwarf=Dwarven Axe

So biggest questions...

Will you TR? If so what Race?

Do you already have some nice named weapons on this toon?

Oh yeah...have you made any Green Steel?

Does Druid interest you at all if you TRed? (then scimitars for sure)

Oh yeah...or if you were to say TR into a Clonk or 18FVS/2MNK you may want to check out the religious weapons of those races (Scimitars>LongSwords)

As stated in my original post - this toon is NEVER EVER going to TR.
If that was an option i would go human w/ peshes and this discussion would have been pointless - but otherwise i'm stuck with the current race

As for the items -
From scimitars i have epic kronzek and epic brigand's cutlass. I am level 25 and since i'm not TRing i'm not really
interested in leveling gear - so don't plan on making any GS either.
From rapiers i have epic elyd edge and that's it - but i have challenge ingredients so making epic elemental rapier of air is not a big issue

[Qnevven]

Why don't you have ITWF and GTWF now?

Like i said - my build was originally scim+shield - for that reason dex was a dump stat for me
currently have 10 dex naked, 14 dex with +4 tome - that does not qualify even for a basic two weapon fighting :P

so yeah - i know that's lame - but right now i have none of those feats - thus the need to LR

[fco-karatekid]

1. LR into rapier user (u got khopesh user already)
2. See what you prefer (rapier/scimy)
3. Stay with whatever you like more, after you know which 1 is it.
4. ???
5. Profit
6. Realize that elves are inferior race, and become a dwarf.

I have to admit: after reading all the calculus that goes on around DPS, I've found this is the best route.

Regardless of theoretical maximums around crit profile, etc; there's a LOT of influence on DPS in what you use and how you play.

If you get a pair of rapiers that have great prefixes/suffixes that are synergistic, they will do so much more for you than two Khopi with sucky *fixes.

If you have an armory full of slotted epic gear, my argument doesn't hold water - but if you are customizing using random gear - try both and stick to what works best.

[unbongwah]

If it makes it easier to stick with rapiers, Balizarde is probably the single best weapon for TWF builds these days. That plus saving a feat for OC swings the pendulum in rapiers' favor. I also recommend the Rapier of Air and/or Cutthroat's Smallblade (next time Crystal Cove comes around); relatively easy to farm the Challenges for both and a pretty solid pair. I also recommend the Elyd Edge to bards; Anthem and Inspiring Echoes alone make it worthwhile and sonic dmg pairs nicely with Fatesinger's Harmonic Resonance.

[Qnevven]

If it makes it easier to stick with rapiers, Balizarde is probably the single best weapon for TWF builds these days. That plus saving a feat for OC swings the pendulum in rapiers' favor.

If i go rapiers i would definitelly aim to get my hands on that weapon for either main or offhand weapon

Only thing that i dont like about it - is that i lucks any kind of DR breaker and with no augment slots i cannot futher customize it add something like with the old epic's red slots

[unbongwah]

Turbulent Epees are my generic DR breakers until I get around to farming up more specific ones - which, as luck would have it, are also rapiers.

If I had to guess, I would hope that Balizarde gets retrofitted with the new Augment Slots in U17, though that's pure speculation / wishful thinking on my part.

[Matuse]

Only thing that i dont like about it - is that i lucks any kind of DR breaker and with no augment slots i cannot futher customize it add something like with the old epic's red slots

Update 17 will be revamping the augment system, and this includes giving the CitW weapons the ability to add an augment slot. Red in this case. You could still slot it with a DR breaker...but there are also straight damage options

Minimum Level 24:
+1d10 Fire Damage on Hit
+1d10 Cold Damage on Hit
+1d10 Acid Damage on Hit
+1d10 Electric Damage on Hit
+114 Fire Spell Power
+114 Cold Spell Power
+114 Acid Spell Power
+114 Electric Spell Power
+114 Sonic Spell Power
+114 Force/Untyped Spell Power
+114 Light/Alignment Spell Power
+114 Negative Spell Power
+114 Positive/Healing Spell Power
+114 Repair/Rust Spell Power

Maybe your bard could use the +Sonic Spellpower boost? The DR breaking augments are all at lower tiers than the 24, but they are all present, so adding /Good would be simple (at least, assuming you get enough heroic commendations to do the upgrade).

[Therigar]

If i go with your suggestion to use either bastard sword or dwarvenaxe with a shield i would have to use at least 4 feats - 3 feats for 2hf line and 1 feat for exotic weapon proficiency - and i do not have that many feats to spare.

Actually, I think that straight S&B using bastard sword/daxe w/o any of the enhancements (ie, no THF, ITHF, GTHF) is going to proc pretty close to the same damage as TWF if you take the two shield mastery feats instead for the double strike.

That means using 3 feats, which still might be too many I guess. Unfortunately, I don't know where you are spending your feats at the moment. Leaves us all guessing a bit.

Still, if you don't have the DEX for it and don't have the feats to commit to the full TWF line then your damage output is going to be pretty poor. Might well be better off with S&B....

[unbongwah]

Part of what makes S&B DPS better for ftrs & pallies is the +10% doublestrike from capstone / Zeal, respectively. Without that I don't know if you can't get competitive S&B DPS for other classes. Nevertheless I've done S&B bard builds for others before, though not as drow - human or dwarf makes more sense.

[Wipey]

There's no point going for OC if you gonna gimp your build too much for it.
I think you got 10 feats ?
PA, twf x 3, improved crit, toughness, inspire excellence, weapon focus or maximize for Prestiges ( that's 8 already ), you said you wanted extend. Quicken would be awesome despite being drow.
How are you gonna fit cleave/great cleave/OC I don't know :-)
And you will be twf in fury or fatesinger anyway so whole lay waste chain doesn't look that hot.

Actually, I think that straight S&B using bastard sword/daxe w/o any of the enhancements (ie, no THF, ITHF, GTHF) is going to proc pretty close to the same damage as TWF if you take the two shield mastery feats instead for the double strike.T

How much double strike can bard get hmm ? There's no way it's even close to twf without gthf, not mentioning gimping your feats and twists choices.

[unbongwah]

I think you got 10 feats ?

7 base + 2 ftr + 2 epic = 11 feats total. On the melee side you want TWF x3, IC:Pierce, and Power Atk/CL/GC/OC = 8 feats. Take Toughness & Inspire Excellence and that leaves one feat either for PrE pre-req (WF:Pierce for WC, Max for SS) or on a Virt for rounding out (e.g., Extend).

[Wipey]

That's what I get for posting on Friday evening, math is hard.
Even with 11, it kinda sucks though.
Chanter doesn't get any metas ( seem to be the case lately with many full ****** eaga horc warchanters without any self healing and pathetic scroll mastery :-D) , spellsinger gets maximize ( quicken would be better but it doesn't count as prerequisite ? ), virtuoso can take 1.
If you are making concentration checks, you can scroll for more and maximize is not really needed for content you running.
Had both maximize+quicken on mine, haven't played bard in months though. Just my experience that quicken is more important for "oh ****" moments.

[Qnevven]

7 base + 2 ftr + 2 epic = 11 feats total. On the melee side you want TWF x3, IC:Pierce, and Power Atk/CL/GC/OC = 8 feats. Take Toughness & Inspire Excellence and that leaves one feat either for PrE pre-req (WF:Pierce for WC, Max for SS) or on a Virt for rounding out (e.g., Extend).

I am going Warchanter so Weapon Focus: pierce/slash is required.... Since i only have 16 caster levels haste/rage/displacement and focusing chant without extend will suck big time - that is why i was considering skiping Greater TWF and taking extend spell in my orginal thoughts about the build

Is 20% offhand worth not having extended haste? (with 16 levels thats only 1m36s - pretty much equal to GS haste cliky)

[Qnevven]

Actually, I think that straight S&B using bastard sword/daxe w/o any of the enhancements (ie, no THF, ITHF, GTHF) is going to proc pretty close to the same damage as TWF if you take the two shield mastery feats instead for the double strike.

That means using 3 feats, which still might be too many I guess. Unfortunately, I don't know where you are spending your feats at the moment. Leaves us all guessing a bit.

Still, if you don't have the DEX for it and don't have the feats to commit to the full TWF line then your damage output is going to be pretty poor. Might well be better off with S&B....

You guys are forgeting one more issue with bards.
They are arcane casters and thus subject to arcane spell failure - as a warchanter i can ignore arcane spell failure while wearing light and medium armor (light armors for me to retain evasion) - but the penalty still applies for shields unfortunatelly
I cannot run in heavy or tower shields or i will be getting fails all the time - would have to slot arcane dexterity but that wouldn't remove the penalty entirely (i think leaving 5% on heavy shield and even more on tower)
I agree that nether grasp gloves from new chain opens some possibilities - but like someone else said - i'm gonna leave S&B for fighters and paladines.

[Vellrad]

You guys are forgeting one more issue with bards.
They are arcane casters and thus subject to arcane spell failure - as a warchanter i can ignore arcane spell failure while wearing light and medium armor (light armors for me to retain evasion) - but the penalty still applies for shields unfortunatelly
I cannot run in heavy or tower shields or i will be getting fails all the time - would have to slot arcane dexterity but that wouldn't remove the penalty entirely (i think leaving 5% on heavy shield and even more on tower)
I agree that nether grasp gloves from new chain opens some possibilities - but like someone else said - i'm gonna leave S&B for fighters and paladines.

-15% in u17