The Juggernaut - Prime of the Warforged

[Ayseifn]

I'm torn on it , but I could drop Mithral Body / ICB and I guess ICR but I'm just not sure ..

I dropped ICR/ICB/E toughness from that list for mine, kinda wish I had more HP but doing ok. I feel dropping ICR was a bad idea though. I have an un upgraded pinion and my MS DPS feels weaksauce at the moent, maybe with more gear it'll perk up but knowing I'm seeing those nice big crits only half the time fills me with saddness.

Pulled a sos shard the other day and made one up, the difference between that and whatever khopesh du jour is night and day. Going to stick with TWF til I gear up but if I can't make it work well I'll TR again and leave them in the TR cache, save a ton of room for loot too.

[Loriac]

I kind of wish that people wouldn't actually try the build without, gear, tomes, certain PLs and at least 36pt build or variation of those.

Someone sees the bad-@$$ video on the Youtubes[tm] and starts flinging their noob juggar full-speed, whipping a quarterstaff through elite Vale and getting destroyed :P.

It's funny but sad at the same time.

If anyone is using a quarterstaff through Vale, they're almost certainly doing it wrong

My own experience was that the juggernaut felt underpowered during heroic levels, compared to my previous life pure ranged/caster arty. Early levels you can brute force your way through anything, but the build definitely starts to feel lacking in the 15-19 range. Its a combination of things: your self healing will be subpar until 20 when you take reconstruct; lack of heroic class melee features become glaringly obvious when other melees are getting their tier 2 or 3 PREs; weapon buffs are limited to elemental weapons and metallic changes, as you don't get deadly until 20 (assuming that you hold levels at 18).

If you're reasonably geared during this stage (LitII falchion, quorforged docent, level 16 cannith challenge gear say) you can hold your own, but I wouldn't say that the build feels strong during these levels. I was tempted more than once to break out Toven's hammer and my old repeater, and switch to a less effective version of my pure arty build.

Even at 20, and with capped FotW and LD, whilst the build felt a lot stronger than at 18, it was still below the power level of my old arty. I'm sure that if I had an eSoS, I'd have found that level easier, but I don't so I didn't. However, as you get to level 23/24 and can wear most of the decent gear (endgame/close to endgame type gear) the build really comes into focus. It was around this level that I could see the full potential, and how much more powerful it was than on my previous life.

Its not just PLs and gear imo; you really need capped FotW and LD, and enough ED levels to twist in what you need (12-18 fate points is about right based on your destiny of choice). This may mean that for most people, the juggernaut is a build to TR into only once you've done most of your ED levelling. I would in fact argue that having enough ED levels is more important than PLs (provided you have opened up 36pt builds at least).

[Viisari]

My own experience was that the juggernaut felt underpowered during heroic levels, compared to my previous life pure ranged/caster arty. Early levels you can brute force your way through anything, but the build definitely starts to feel lacking in the 15-19 range.

Much of this is because of gear.

I've leveled two juggernauts, first one was a 2nd lifer with little in the ways TR gear. Seconds one was my main (who was missing arti life so why not) who has tons of TR gear, Sword of Shadows, three fighter past lives and so on. The difference at those levels was huge, was leveling with my guildie who was also running a juggernaut and we were just tearing everything up in elite Refuge too.

[Loriac]

Much of this is because of gear.

I've leveled two juggernauts, first one was a 2nd lifer with little in the ways TR gear. Seconds one was my main (who was missing arti life so why not) who has tons of TR gear, Sword of Shadows, three fighter past lives and so on. The difference at those levels was huge, was leveling with my guildie who was also running a juggernaut and we were just tearing everything up in elite Refuge too.

I had a litII falchion, which I think is comparable dps to the sword of shadows at the strength levels you can reach during heroic. I'm not really sure what other TR gear you're talking about at those levels, or what would have made the difference. Whilst my guy isn't fully geared up yet at epic levels (I haven't really got into eGH EE content yet, but have various named and EH/EN stuff from GH), at heroic levels I would say that theres not much he's missing as a WF - I've played several lives as warforged, so the gear accumulates even if you don't actively look to do so.

I can see 3xfighter PL making a bit of a difference in landing stunning blow, but again its not so difficult to reach the DCs necessary for that during levels 15-18.

I honestly don't think its a gearing issue. If you run with dedicated melee (pure fighters, barbs, well built monks) during those levels, you will see a shortfall in capability vs. them. Conversely, the pure arty at those levels has enough damage output to put elite mobs down fast, and has extremely reliable area dps and cc. Add on top of that lack of effective self-healing from not yet having quickened reconstruct, and the build is outclassed *at those levels*.

[voodoogroves]

If anyone is using a quarterstaff through Vale, they're almost certainly doing it wrong

... unless it is a fully upgraded Dreamspitter ...

But the point is still valid. Some things only work as well as they do once they get some other things under their belt.

[chanw4]

There is a way not to rock with this or a similar build even on first life? :P
Its selfhealing, it does nice damage and has good hp.
Thats more then most builds on the forums have and dont even mention the "i take what comes along" builds.

for a first life, it is difficult because the build is heavily gear dependent, without good gear, you'll deal minimal damage. Only good thing is, you are self sufficient and should not require the healer to spend his sp on you. I tried a meleeficer on my first life and i find myself resort to using repeater after getting double crossbow.

[Viisari]

*snip*

Well, my highest crits with SoS were around 700 damage at level 16 already so I dunno...

Personally I don't really think lit II's are that good for leveling when compared to SoS, lit strike procs rarely and is usualy just overkill anyway so the main advantage it has is holy, electric burst and blast and slightly higher base die. Meanwhile SoS crits all the **** time.

[Loriac]

Well, my highest crits with SoS were around 700 damage at level 16 already so I dunno...

Personally I don't really think lit II's are that good for leveling when compared to SoS, lit strike procs rarely and is usualy just overkill anyway so the main advantage it has is holy, electric burst and blast and slightly higher base die. Meanwhile SoS crits all the **** time.

Look, I don't want to sidetrack this thread into a discussion on the merits of (the non-epic) sword of shadows. Yes its a good sword. No it doesn't crit more often than a litII falchion. Yes it crits harder. No that doesn't make up for the build's weaknesses at levels 15-18. Elite level 17+ quests are plagued by mobs with bloated hp (IQ1/2, eveningstar level 17 content etc). On such mobs, lightning strike absolutely is useful, and I find it procs at least 2-3 times per minute. Would I prefer an SoS? Sure, but its not leaps and bounds ahead of a litII. I'd also like to see a breakdown of that 700crit at level 16 (I'm assuming the mob was helpless obviously, but that still means you'd have to have been doing base damage of 150, which seems high).

I'm not knocking the juggernaut build, I'm simply pointing out what should be blindingly obvious - other melee at around level 18 get access to a whole bunch of nice toys in the shape of their tier 3 PREs. Meanwhile, pure artys at level 18 have access to 2 level 6 spells, and if max'd Int, have access to excellent cc as well as high area damage from Tovens and their repeater.

I think Lurzifer has also alluded to this point about the build during heroic levels ("the levelling is a real journey") unless I'm completely misreading what that meant.

Even so, however, most players that I've pugged with don't seem to be able to really max out their dps, so usually a juggernaut in a decent player's hands with solid gear will absolutely hold its own in all heroic content. Its just that if you objectively assess the build's performance vs. other builds at that level, there are far more optimised choices.

[Viisari]

No that doesn't make up for the build's weaknesses at levels 15-18. Elite level 17+ quests are plagued by mobs with bloated hp (IQ1/2, eveningstar level 17 content etc). On such mobs, lightning strike absolutely is useful, and I find it procs at least 2-3 times per minute.

Sure if you actually run those, but unless the group has an instakiller along I usually skip those simply because on any melee char those quests are terrible xp.

I'd also like to see a breakdown of that 700crit at level 16 (I'm assuming the mob was helpless obviously, but that still means you'd have to have been doing base damage of 150, which seems high).

I've no idea what the breakdown is, but that's the number I got so...

I did go rather "***" considering normal crits on stunned mobs were around 400-500, sometimes rarely almost 600.

Its just that if you objectively assess the build's performance vs. other builds at that level, there are far more optimised choices.

Of course there are plenty of builds that are better than the juggie in specific situations. But juggie was never built to be the best in specific situations, it was built as the best generalist melee characters you could possibly have, and that's pretty much what it is as far as I can tell.

If far more optimized is what someone wants for heroic content then they need to look no further than a wf sorcerer

[Ellihor]

Any gear list for update 17?

[Carpone]

Dropped Stunning Blow lately and have IPS again.

Do you find yourself ranging mobs a lot when Manyshot is not in use?

Maybe I'm running too many Fall of Truth raids, but I'd rather have the 25% armor bypass from Precision for the epic moment instead of IPS. 20% Flawless Black Dragonscale armor + 15% Grim Precision + 25% Precision + 20% Bow of the Silver Flame (Weaken Undead) = 80% fortification bypass against The Truthful One.

[Viisari]

Do you find yourself ranging mobs a lot when Manyshot is not in use?

Maybe I'm running too many Fall of Truth raids, but I'd rather have the 25% armor bypass from Precision for the epic moment instead of IPS. 20% Flawless Black Dragonscale armor + 10% Tunnel Vision + 15% Grim Precision + 25% Precision + 20% Bow of the Silver Flame (Weaken Undead) = 90% fortification bypass against The Truthful One.

I've Precision on my juggie but find myself rarely using it even when I should. Just too annoying to constantly switch the stances around and unless you're running EE it makes little difference anyway.

[HalfORCastrator]

Do you find yourself ranging mobs a lot when Manyshot is not in use?

Maybe I'm running too many Fall of Truth raids, but I'd rather have the 25% armor bypass from Precision for the epic moment instead of IPS. 20% Flawless Black Dragonscale armor + 10% Tunnel Vision + 15% Grim Precision + 25% Precision + 20% Bow of the Silver Flame (Weaken Undead) = 90% fortification bypass against The Truthful One.

Tunnel Vision takes off 10% fort from your character, it's not fort reduction vs. mobs. Also, are you sure that -fort of the same percents stack(Black armor and SF Bow)? (Yeah, static vs. proc, but still possible it doesn't) The whole game would assume the contrary.

[AegonTargaryen]

Well, my highest crits with SoS were around 700 damage at level 16 already so I dunno...

Unless you are fully geared barb with FB2, against a stunned mob, and using Great Cleave, I call bullsh*t..

Personally I don't really think lit II's are that good for leveling when compared to SoS, lit strike procs rarely and is usualy just overkill anyway so the main advantage it has is holy, electric burst and blast and slightly higher base die. Meanwhile SoS crits all the **** time.

The SoS has the exact same crit range. (18-20, 15-20 w/Imp Crit:Slashing) Also a lit2 falchion has basically the same base dmg. (1.5W {2D4} = {3D4} = {2D6})

[Viisari]

Unless you are fully geared barb with FB2, against a stunned mob, and using Great Cleave, I call bullsh*t..

Mob was stunned and I had damage boost running. Whether you choose to believe it or not doesn't really matter.

The SoS has the exact same crit range. (18-20, 15-20 w/Imp Crit:Slashing) Also a lit2 falchion has basically the same base dmg. (1.5W {2D4} = {3D4} = {2D6})

You know I was specifically talking about how lit strike is very rare compared to how often SoS crits. And SoS crits way harder than a lit II falchion does even if their crit range is the same.

And even disregarding all that I was merely commenting on how I personally feel that SoS is way superior to lit II as far as leveling is concerned.

[cdr]

I personally like Cloudburst more than anything for leveling 2HF. Maybe not everyone has one of those in their cache, but if you have a SOS laying around there's more than a half chance.

[Carpone]

Tunnel Vision takes off 10% fort from your character, it's not fort reduction vs. mobs. Also, are you sure that -fort of the same percents stack(Black armor and SF Bow)? (Yeah, static vs. proc, but still possible it doesn't) The whole game would assume the contrary.

Fixed my post. I was thinking of Insult (but wrote Tunnel Vision), but it wouldn't apply to bows anyway.

Weaken Undead is a debuff, so I'm very confident that it stacks with Flawless Black Dragon Armor.

[Daemoneyes]

I personally like Cloudburst more than anything for leveling 2HF. Maybe not everyone has one of those in their cache, but if you have a SOS laying around there's more than a half chance.

Whirlwind and Xuum are cheap and easy to get alternatives for those without SoS / Greensteel. Like me ^_^ bought both for 10k each in the AH.


@thread
looks like the build has further evolved to even more ranged use, would you say that melee starts to get weak in general?
With incoming damage so high in EE i get the feeling that its age of ranged.

[Viisari]

looks like the build has further evolved to even more ranged use, would you say that melee starts to get weak in general?
With incoming damage so high in EE i get the feeling that its age of ranged.

There's still plenty of use for melee. If you look at our videos we mainly melee stuff in quests, it hasn't really changed with EE GH, manyshot is still a tool for bosses and gathering charges for furyshot.

[voxson5]

Ok so I already have 1 Jugg / but now my completionist is on his last life and atm I can't think of any other melee build I want to do .... So here is my feat selection just seeing if I'm missing anything ..

Mithral Body / PBS / Power Attack / Cleave / Completionist / Toughness / Great Cleave / Quicken / Manyshot / ICS / ICR / ICB / Precise Shot / Overwhelming Critical / Epic Toughness

I do have a ton of khopesh's on this alt and would like to take advantage of them but I keep looking at the list of feats and can't find 3 that I want to give up for

Khopesh / ITWF / GTWF

I'm torn on it , but I could drop Mithral Body / ICB and I guess ICR but I'm just not sure ..

The biggest problems is juggling around the feats that you have to take. For example the monk bonus feats are pretty much limited to toughness and power attack; there is not really anything else on the martial arts feat list.

Arti feats are taken up with PBS, ICrit:ranged, Quicken and mithral body/Precise shot

So that means the only feat to really take at 1 is stunning blow. Can't take cleave, PA & toughness taken care of, exotic weapons need 1 BAB, etc

So your heroic feats could be:
1-stunning blow
3-cleave
6-khopesh
9-Icrit:slash
12-itwf
15-many shot
18-gtwf

This is my current setup on my 2wf jugg, but I also have completionist so have moved gtwf way way back to 24! (Dps is still very nice at 18 without it, out doing other traditional juggs at level who may not be geared).

I think serious consideration needs to be given to Citw weapons, or a heavy pick combination like deathnip and drow of stunning.

While I am a total newbie to ED's due to tr addiction, primal avatar does have some very nice twf bonuses, and would twist nicely into fury or dreadnaut. Likewise, a feat shuffle to take two weapon defence and trade Mithral body for ips? Could provide a very similar PRR as well as a much higher ac.

Pally PL & a bard slav... Companion would greatly benefit twf juggs as well.

Heh, still very much a work in progress but would be very interested In seeing others thoughts and plans on twf juggernauts.