The Juggernaut - Prime of the Warforged

[Xaxx]

Well in the end with this build is the esos really better than cleaver/sireth?

Toons like this end up having massive gear issues sometimes as you're trying to fit so much stuff on them, like the paladin version.... your lookin to max out as much as possible 5 different stats (say you even dump int, your still lookin at 4 with str/con/dex/cha). Your also looking to max saves hence a few of the stats and damage amongst other things.

If you have sos, then your damage options come down to claw set or pdk set. Pdk limits you to your choice of docent, and claw will hammer your saves (no room for superior parrying).

So sometimes I have to wonder if the *best weapon* isnt the 2nd best weapon in this case just for the planar set.

I ask this as I find myself in a position with a 20 sorc with 3 fighter past lives and an esos (my old attempt to make a full blooded caster with mele ability) and I'm really looking at turning h im into one of these, yet every time I start a gear break down, my head starts to hurt trying to fit everything together and keep claw set.

[WruntJunior]

Well in the end with this build is the esos really better than cleaver/sireth?

Toons like this end up having massive gear issues sometimes as you're trying to fit so much stuff on them, like the paladin version.... your lookin to max out as much as possible 5 different stats (say you even dump int, your still lookin at 4 with str/con/dex/cha). Your also looking to max saves hence a few of the stats and damage amongst other things.

If you have sos, then your damage options come down to claw set or pdk set. Pdk limits you to your choice of docent, and claw will hammer your saves (no room for superior parrying).

So sometimes I have to wonder if the *best weapon* isnt the 2nd best weapon in this case just for the planar set.

I ask this as I find myself in a position with a 20 sorc with 3 fighter past lives and an esos (my old attempt to make a full blooded caster with mele ability) and I'm really looking at turning h im into one of these, yet every time I start a gear break down, my head starts to hurt trying to fit everything together and keep claw set.

If your read through the thread, many people are considering the Cleaver with u17 (and Haek was originally using Sireth, but that's more because he didn't have the eSoS, to my understanding :P).

[Forzah]

Well in the end with this build is the esos really better than cleaver/sireth?

Toons like this end up having massive gear issues sometimes as you're trying to fit so much stuff on them, like the paladin version.... your lookin to max out as much as possible 5 different stats (say you even dump int, your still lookin at 4 with str/con/dex/cha). Your also looking to max saves hence a few of the stats and damage amongst other things.

If you have sos, then your damage options come down to claw set or pdk set. Pdk limits you to your choice of docent, and claw will hammer your saves (no room for superior parrying).

So sometimes I have to wonder if the *best weapon* isnt the 2nd best weapon in this case just for the planar set.

I ask this as I find myself in a position with a 20 sorc with 3 fighter past lives and an esos (my old attempt to make a full blooded caster with mele ability) and I'm really looking at turning h im into one of these, yet every time I start a gear break down, my head starts to hurt trying to fit everything together and keep claw set.

You can use gem of many facets + gloves of the claw to free up a spot for superior parrying. That would cost you the planar conflux bonus, though. I think sos is still superior to the cleaver even without a damage bonus, since it's crit range is huge.

Then again, the 15 PRR is pretty sexy. Does it stack with everything in u17? What are the stacking rules for sheltering +9, PRR 14 in a blue slot, and PRR 15 from planar conflux? Can you have all three of them?

[WruntJunior]

You can use gem of many facets + gloves of the claw to free up a spot for superior parrying. That would cost you the planar conflux bonus, though. I think sos is still superior to the cleaver even without a damage bonus, since it's crit range is huge. Then again, the 15 PRR is pretty sexy. Does it stack with everything in u17?

Hits you right in the PRR, though, to use eSoS over Cleaver.

[Forzah]

Hits you right in the PRR, though, to use eSoS over Cleaver.

I guess, but I cba to grind out loads of commendations for an item that doesn't do more damage just to get 15 PRR, while I got the Esos right here

[WruntJunior]

I guess, but I cba to grind out loads of commendations for an item that doesn't do more damage just to get 15 PRR, while I got the Esos right here

I'm kinda getting tired of the way my eSoS looks. :P A change would be good for me. >_>

[Wulverine]

What are the stacking rules for sheltering +9, PRR 14 in a blue slot, and PRR 15 from planar conflux? Can you have all three of them?

Sheltering is an enhancement bonus, blue slot is an enhancement bonus as well. So those two wont stack.
Last time i checked on lama, Planar conflux is still uniquely typed and will stack. (the PRR portion of it anyway)

Like with most things in this game, it's all situational. So you will be swapping between cleaver and esos if you have both for situations where you will need the extra PRR. (which I don't think will be that often in full groups/raid.)

[Xaxx]

You can use gem of many facets + gloves of the claw to free up a spot for superior parrying. That would cost you the planar conflux bonus, though. I think sos is still superior to the cleaver even without a damage bonus, since it's crit range is huge.

Then again, the 15 PRR is pretty sexy. Does it stack with everything in u17? What are the stacking rules for sheltering +9, PRR 14 in a blue slot, and PRR 15 from planar conflux? Can you have all three of them?

yeah Im a moron arent I for forgetting about gem of many facets..... totally slipped my mind.

I dont disagree that esos is still gonna turn up better in the calc, my only lament is the extra gear slot needed when theres so much **** to cram into a build.

As for the prr.. that was also another slight concern on this build as a midrange prr would be highly useful for this build. So once again esos is the best damage, yet you give up something else slightly in a build of this nature for it.

Still on the fence over tring my sorc into this, looks interesting, just not completly sure heh.

[Forzah]

Sheltering is an enhancement bonus, blue slot is an enhancement bonus as well. So those two wont stack.
Last time i checked on lama, Planar conflux is still uniquely typed and will stack. (the PRR portion of it anyway)

Like with most things in this game, it's all situational. So you will be swapping between cleaver and esos if you have both for situations where you will need the extra PRR. (which I don't think will be that often in full groups/raid.)

That's pretty cool, because it makes it really easy to swap out adamantine cloak of the wolf then.

[Forzah]

Hmm I've come to the conclusion that armor piercing 20% is very much worth having.

With an esos 6/20 of your attempted melee attacks crit and you do about x4 damage on average on a crit... (it's a bit less for crits on 15-18 and a bit more for 19-20)

With 0% fort you do 6/20*4*(1-fort) + 13/20*1 = 1.85 damage in both situations
With 25% fort it's 1.55 vs 1.79 (15.5% more)
With 50% fort it's 1.25 vs 1.49 (20.2% more)
With 75% fort it's 0.95 vs 1.19 (25.3% more)
etc

So basically against anything with fort, you'll do a significant amount of extra damage. This is just a stylized example but it shows that armor piercing is worth a lot. The higher your critical chance and critical damage the higher the benefits.

[WruntJunior]

Hmm I've come to the conclusion that armor piercing 20% is very much worth having.

With an esos 6/20 of your attempted melee attacks crit and you do about x4 damage on average on a crit... (it's a bit less for crits on 15-18 and a bit more for 19-20)

With 0% fort you do 6/20*4*(1-fort) + 13/20*1 = 1.85 damage in both situations
With 25% fort it's 1.55 vs 1.79 (15.5% more)
With 50% fort it's 1.25 vs 1.49 (20.2% more)
With 75% fort it's 0.95 vs 1.19 (25.3% more)
etc

So basically against anything with fort, you'll do a significant amount of extra damage. This is just a stylized example but it shows that armor piercing is worth a lot. The higher your critical chance and critical damage the higher the benefits.

Add in that many non-raid-boss enemies (I think every orange-named or higher enemy on EE may have some, as my AA has gotten non-crit adrenaline shots against them with Pinion on a confirm critical) seem to have fortification, and black scale looks better.

[Forzah]

Add in that many non-raid-boss enemies (I think every orange-named or higher enemy on EE may have some, as my AA has gotten non-crit adrenaline shots against them with Pinion on a confirm critical) seem to have fortification, and black scale looks better.

Yep. I'm getting the black docent for sure now. Now I'll just have to figure out a new setup again, but at least there's time for that

[WruntJunior]

Yep. I'm getting the black docent for sure now. Now I'll just have to figure out a new setup again, but at least there's time for that

*Ahem*

That may help, at least as a starting point. :P

LOTS of options with EE GH, though.

[Forzah]

*Ahem*

That may help, at least as a starting point. :P

LOTS of options with EE GH, though.

Yea, I've seen it. I find your choice for the cloak and belt not that great... it's probably a lot better to go for epic spare hand + ghost-waking cloak and slot 14 PRR in the blue slot. The cloak gives 15 DR against almost everything, and since you have 8 cha on it you can swap out those intricate field optics for the dream visor.

[aristarchus1000]

I mentioned this a while back, but I really like the idea of taking this build and splashing 2 ranger and 2 paladin instead, allowing me to fit in IPS along with the super high paladin saves. I lose evasion from monk, but I feel as though with quickened reconstruct and high reflex saves it won't be that bad, and I really love sprint boost.

Mine is currently a 2nd life (bard past life) build, but it could easily be adapted to wherever you are in your TR lives. I'd appreciate any feedback.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
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Arisanto Juggernaut
Level 25 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Paladin \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Artificer \ 5 Epic) 
Hit Points: 404
Spell Points: 1015 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
Strength             15                    25
Dexterity            15                    19
Constitution         17                    21
Intelligence         12                    16
Wisdom                6                     9
Charisma             12                    15

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 25)
Balance               3                    17
Bluff                 1                     8
Concentration         3                    33
Diplomacy             1                     8
Disable Device        5                    31
Haggle                1                     8
Heal                 -2                     5
Hide                  2                    10
Intimidate            1                     8
Jump                  2                    13
Listen               -2                     5
Move Silently         2                    10
Open Lock             6                    32
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     9
Search                5                    31
Spot                 -2                     5
Swim                  2                    13
Tumble                3                    11
Use Magic Device      5                    30

Level 1 (Artificer)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Artificer)


Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 6 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Point Blank Shot


Level 8 (Artificer)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 10 (Artificer)


Level 11 (Artificer)


Level 12 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Manyshot
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Precise Shot


Level 13 (Artificer)


Level 14 (Artificer)


Level 15 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 17 (Artificer)


Level 18 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 19 (Artificer)


Level 20 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 21 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Artificer)


Level 23 (Artificer)


Level 24 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Artificer)

[WruntJunior]

Yea, I've seen it. I find your choice for the cloak and belt not that great... it's probably a lot better to go for epic spare hand + ghost-waking cloak and slot 14 PRR in the blue slot. The cloak gives 15 DR against almost everything, and since you have 8 cha on it you can swap out those intricate field optics for the dream visor.

I'll admit, the cloak/belt options are so I only have to farm one House Cannith challenge item (ring of the master artifice), as I'm already ~half-way to the adamantine cloak of the bear. However, I'm hardly lack on room for the blue slot, and I'm primarily planning to use the cloak for +6 stunning.

Luckily, there's options there...and I'll have to consider the different equipment options in better detail based on my luck with pulls. :P

[DarkForte]

Add in that many non-raid-boss enemies (I think every orange-named or higher enemy on EE may have some, as my AA has gotten non-crit adrenaline shots against them with Pinion on a confirm critical) seem to have fortification, and black scale looks better.

Are you sure? I don't recall ever losing SA damage against EE mobs on my ninja. (aside from the obvious ones)

[WruntJunior]

Are you sure? I don't recall ever losing SA damage against EE mobs on my ninja. (aside from the obvious ones)

I have on several different occasions noticed confirming a crit and not getting crit damage in EE High Road on my AA.

[Carpone]

I know a few people are trying to get the Epic Blademark's Docent to get a good trip DC, but I'd have to see how high I could get before I try farming it.

Your gearset is very similar to what I came up with for my take on this archetype.

Starting with 18 STR you can hit 63 Trip DC with a +4 tome and no Fighter past lives:

18 STR (16 points) + 6 level ups + 4 tome + 5 primal scream + 8 item + 3 insightful + 1 exceptional + 4 alchemical + 2 yugo + 2 ship +2 profane + 3 ED = 58 (+24)

Trip: 15 base + 10 item + 5 exceptional + 24 STR bonus + 6 Legendary Tactics twist + 3 Warforged Tactics = 63
Stunning Blow: 10 base + 10 item + 5 exceptional + 24 STR bonus + 6 Legendary Tactics twist + 3 Warforged Tactics = 58

If you're using the Bear cloak instead of the Spare Hand, then add 1 DC to both. If you're splashing Paladin, then starting with 16 STR is more realistic.

Epic Blademark's Docent is very easy to farm compared to other old-school epic items since there are so few items in the Sentinel pack. Bargain of Blood is very quick seal farming.

[Machination]

At present I am thinking something like this for U17 gear (After a couple of days of playing U17, I have made some changes to this plan):

Neck: Pendant of the Stormreaver: Prot +7, Empty Yellow Slot (Fear Imm), or Torc (situational)
Goggles: EE Dream Visor, Empty Yellow (Deathblock)
Hat: +8 con Black Dragon Helm Empty Green, Empty Yellow
Gloves: EE Nether Gloves
Module: Black Dragon Scale w/Heavy Fort or ee Livewood Core - heavy fort, exceptional fort, natural armor +7, +3 ins Con, +3 ins Wis (swap when need 175% fort)
Boots: Halcyon boots, Clear Slot, Yellow Slot or ee Treads falling shadow (+8 Dex, +3 ins Dex, ghostly)
Bracers: Greater Convalescent of Sup Parry or EE Twisted Shade (swap out for traps)
Cloak: jeweled cloak: inherent elemental resist 10, Empty Yellow slot (Charisma +7), Empty Green Slot (Resistance +7)
Belt: ee Belt of Giant's Brawn +8 STR, Green slot, yellow slot
Ring left: Master Artifice (Good Luck +2, +1 exc GLOBE)
Ring right: Double Strike 6% or Ring of Shadows Empty Yellow Slot
Trinket: +3 ins STR Prowess or Arrowhead (ranged crippling situational only)
Quiver: ee Quiver of Poison

Big issue with me is I don't want to give up Superior Parry. Not available on augment slots (correct me if I am wrong) or any of the new named gear. So looks like I'll be sticking with +8 STR of Sup Parry bracers for EE content, and for EH I'll go with ee Bracers of Twisted Shade and STR on the Ring of Shadows

What about gear after u17? Currenty thinking of going for this:

Goggles: Dream visor (yellow)
Docent: Red docent
Bracers: Bracers of the sun soul
Ring 1: Ring of master artifice (green, colorless)
Ring 2: Ring of shadows (yellow)
Boots: Boots of corrosion (green, colorless)
Gloves: Backstabbers gloves (yellow)
Helm: Helm of frost (yellow, colorless)
Cloak: Envenomed cloak (green)
Necklace: Jorgundals collar (green, colorless) / GS hp
Trinket: Planar focus insightful str
Belt: Spare hand (blue, colorless)

Plenty of slots, seeker, sneak attack etc, with all sorts of elemental resistances. Only thing I really miss is a +4 melee damage item, and I'd have to swap gear to search for traps.