MY GOD! How do you PM's do it?

[count_spicoli]

After 2 lifes of warforge archmage i decided to give pale master a try.Right now i am level 10 and what absolute garbage this is. Zombie form sucks the healing is terrible and sp sucks.i am used to unlimited healing with wands pots and scrolls for no use of sp and being able just to get in traffic and quicken repair for amazing healing. I have to admit i am extremely disappointed so far and am hoping that it gets better at some point. Ive heard lich form it gets better but do you really have to be 18 to enjoy fruits of this prestige when you begin enjoying archmage out the gate. Please tell me something i am missing because i cant wait for 20 to tr back to my archmage.

[mobrien316]

After 2 lifes of warforge archmage i decided to give pale master a try.Right now i am level 10 and what absolute garbage this is. Zombie form sucks the healing is terrible and sp sucks.i am used to unlimited healing with wands pots and scrolls for no use of sp and being able just to get in traffic and quicken repair for amazing healing. I have to admit i am extremely disappointed so far and am hoping that it gets better at some point. Ive heard lich form it gets better but do you really have to be 18 to enjoy fruits of this prestige when you begin enjoying archmage out the gate. Please tell me something i am missing because i cant wait for 20 to tr back to my archmage.

Playing a warforged archmage includes a huge easy button in the form of self-healing. Anyone switching to pretty much any other form of caster is going to find self healing a bit more of a challenge.


I started with a human archmage and TR'd into a human pale master, and I found the self-healing options to be tremendous. I guess it's all a matter of what you're used to.

[danotmano1998]

IMHO, PM's do not hit their true power until they get higher level.

I have heard of many folks leveling up as archmage until 18 (or 12), then swapping to PM and kicking some serious monster behind.

[walkingwolfmike]

When you get to Wraith form, things pick up, IMO.
Play style will depend on your build, obviously, but for me I went 18wiz Pm/ 2Rog, with focus on Enchantment and Necro. My MO is charm a large group, let them beat on each other, and FoD or Necrotic Ray and PM SLA mobs that resist.

The Necromancers motto: With enough minions, anything is possible.

[Darkrok]

I generally stayed out of form at low levels. I guess if you're wanting to really mix it up you could but honestly I'd give thought to playing as an AM Necro just for the extra spell points (and possibly the SLA's if you're doing undead-heavy stuff) until level 12.

At 12 I'd keep the Mental Toughness feat you needed for AM and switch to PM. You'll need Mental Toughness to pick up Shroud of the Wraith. I almost dumped my PM when I finally got to level 12, got Vampire form, and proceeded to hate it. Shroud of the Wraith is what saved the toon for me. Double light damage instead of quad and 25% incorporeal make Wraith a blast to play. You're WAY more survivable against melee damage than an AM would be and your SP pool (especially if you're on a TR) starts to get high enough to support the PM play style.

Lastly, just getting to level 12 makes a PM more playable. Necrotic Bolt, when it's usable, adds some solid damage at relatively little spell point cost (just the cost of keeping your aura up for the healing).

The only thing I'll add since it's something I didn't realize when I first started my PM - in those times that you need every bit of healing you can get the 2 aura's (Lesser and the regular one) stack. It's not a ton extra but it can make a difference when you're really getting beat on.

[count_spicoli]

Ya i still havent viven up hope because i am only 10. And i have done this before(evoker build) where i couldnt stand the build early only to really love it later. And also love a build early to hate it later(barb) so my verdict isnt complete. But so far it hasnt been good.wraith form looks ok but 100 sp to get into with no real dc bonuses is kind of a mess. By now archmage has +2 dc in any school as well as +1 in another and a bunch more sp.

[count_spicoli]

Ill also get all my shroud **** next level which will help with sp and hp tremedously.

[Enoach]

If going the fleshie PM route the most powerful self healing comes from these sources.

1. Auras <- Can run both at the same time they stack, but this is not the BIG damage recovery right now (It does better from PM3 and other negative energy enhancements)

2. Level 4 Spell Negative Energy Burst <- This is your "Must Recover lots of HP now" button, Quicken is your friend

3. UMD <- Inflict Scrolls and Wands

4. Inflict Potions <- Behind the Palm while in undead form talk to the Vampire and he will introduce you to someone that will take all your Undead gathered collectables for Wands/Scrolls and Inflict Potions.

Next bit of advice - Unless planning on being a Melee caster until 12 skip Zombie it has too many drawbacks.

At 12 drop Zombie and pick up Wraith form, if you like to solo and don't need to "Kill the Dungeon" Wraith form and a few well placed charms and suggestions with Invisibility can get you past fights letting you concentrate on completion and not how few SP you have.

Also it is not until PM2 that you get your first Ranged negative energy attack which coupled with Aura is a nearly unlimited damaging spell. PM3's is an even more powerful version similar in effect to a Fireball (includes AoE).

Lich is the ACME of the PM until you've experienced this form and its power in my opinion you have not experienced the Pale Master.


Again as an other poster has pointed out the WF Arcane has probably the 2nd best Self Healing in the game, following only the Divine Classes of Cleric and FvS. So you will find the playstyle to be different.

[Scraap]

By either not taking zombie form, or keeping a ton of eternal wands around. It's that bad.

[CanyonMan88]

PM is very powerful at high level with the propper gear. It pretty much sucks to level, though. IMO all the undead forms before Lich, are pretty useless. Lich is very powerful, expecially if you make a lvl 24 Mabar robe.

[voodoogroves]

Did you go fleshie?

WF PM man, it's the cure for what ails you.

[TrinityTurtle]

Well, I made it to 20, but I"m an awful PM. I forget to keep an eye on my aura, have killed myself spamming my necro abilities without more times than I thought possible. I do see the potential for greatness in the toon, but I think it requires a more detail oriented player than my attention defecit self to achieve her real potential. It did get significantly better around level 12 though, when I got access to wraith form instead of zomie. That was a lot of fun. Even more fun when I noticed I don't need to keep zombie form and could recover the enhancement points for use elsewhere....

[count_spicoli]

If going the fleshie PM route the most powerful self healing comes from these sources.

1. Auras <- Can run both at the same time they stack, but this is not the BIG damage recovery right now (It does better from PM3 and other negative energy enhancements)

2. Level 4 Spell Negative Energy Burst <- This is your "Must Recover lots of HP now" button, Quicken is your friend

3. UMD <- Inflict Scrolls and Wands

4. Inflict Potions <- Behind the Palm while in undead form talk to the Vampire and he will introduce you to someone that will take all your Undead gathered collectables for Wands/Scrolls and Inflict Potions.

Next bit of advice - Unless planning on being a Melee caster until 12 skip Zombie it has too many drawbacks.

At 12 drop Zombie and pick up Wraith form, if you like to solo and don't need to "Kill the Dungeon" Wraith form and a few well placed charms and suggestions with Invisibility can get you past fights letting you concentrate on completion and not how few SP you have.

Also it is not until PM2 that you get your first Ranged negative energy attack which coupled with Aura is a nearly unlimited damaging spell. PM3's is an even more powerful version similar in effect to a Fireball (includes AoE).

Lich is the ACME of the PM until you've experienced this form and its power in my opinion you have not experienced the Pale Master.


Again as an other poster has pointed out the WF Arcane has probably the 2nd best Self Healing in the game, following only the Divine Classes of Cleric and FvS. So you will find the playstyle to be different.

Tks for the advice. I will def go talk to that vamp dude. Forgot about him since i havent talked to any collectable dudes in 3 years since i first started.

I am trying to umd right now but just cant seem to get it to exceptable ranks right now without rogue splash which iwill not do(been therd and done that. Didnt like it.)

[count_spicoli]

By either not taking zombie form, or keeping a ton of eternal wands around. It's that bad.

Ha ha i laughed pretty hard at this one. If i didnt xo elite all the time for bb i probably wouldnt care but by the time you get to von sbeasts are hitting to hard to just chug pots and healers generally dont help out casters too much.

[count_spicoli]

Did you go fleshie?

WF PM man, it's the cure for what ails you.

Thought about this too but then why bother being pm of your wf.

[Scraap]

Ha ha i laughed pretty hard at this one. If i didnt xo elite all the time for bb i probably wouldnt care but by the time you get to von sbeasts are hitting to hard to just chug pots and healers generally dont help out casters too much.

3 lives worth of BB on a PM. Wands, quarterstaves with DPS mutations, or great-swords before you get AoEs, not standing around after you do. Simple. But I can see how folks might get confused if they actually think the auras are worth anything before 12.

[voodoogroves]

Thought about this too but then why bother being pm of your wf.

Because PM Lich form is awesome, and PM plays very differently than AM ... but WF can make the earlier levels easier as well.

[squishwizzy]

After 2 lifes of warforge archmage i decided to give pale master a try.Right now i am level 10 and what absolute garbage this is. Zombie form sucks the healing is terrible and sp sucks.i am used to unlimited healing with wands pots and scrolls for no use of sp and being able just to get in traffic and quicken repair for amazing healing. I have to admit i am extremely disappointed so far and am hoping that it gets better at some point. Ive heard lich form it gets better but do you really have to be 18 to enjoy fruits of this prestige when you begin enjoying archmage out the gate. Please tell me something i am missing because i cant wait for 20 to tr back to my archmage.

I'm at lvl 11 on my PM, with Zombie form, having similar problems.

The issue with PMs and self-healing is basically the cost to go into form, and the fact that the only way to self-heal is being in form. It ends up being a HUGE SP sink at lower levels because you have very little to play with.

So in order to run in form, and so it effectively, you basically have to turn yourself into a tank. Gather mobs around you, put on Stoneskin, any elemental buffs, get axeblock, hammerblock items (etc.), have a void lore item / nullification item. You drop web, ensnare mobs, and kill them with an AoE. If you have to turtle-up because you get surrounded, throw on death aura which heals you and damages the mobs around you.

If dealing with undead, use fire or Command / Halt Undead. Why fight when they can fight for you (or if you can walk right by them).

At lower levels you have to be super-efficient with SP costs. Keep that Archvist set around for an emergency SP supply.

Right now I've got my ConOpp bracers, and GS SP necklace, and a nice set of Marbar robes (lvls 12, 16, and 20) waiting for me in the wings. I specifically farmed Marbar for that complete set of robes for the purposes of help with self-healing. I'm running about 1000+ SP which helps a little, but I still have to justify every SP I spend.

Wraith form is what a lot of PMs target at the outset. I went Zombie to get a feel for the shrouds. However, upper levels your FoD will almost be no-fail, was will be Wail of the Banshee.

Mind you, I run fleshy AMs whose only self-healing is CSW pots.

As someone mentioned, A WF AM is basically a bit of an "easy" button. Like you pointed out, you have basically unlimited heals in one form or another. This tends to slacken playstyle in some regards. As a WF you have all of these immunities, so you don't worry about being danced, held, and so on. The downside is that you miss out on some of the strengths that other races play. I had a fairly contentious argument concerning WF and elves when it came to arcanes. My position was that elves, in some regards, were better than WF for the main fact that they had the Arcanum enhancements. This increases their spell pen over most races, giving them an offensive edge. if you can throw dances and holds with a high degree of effectiveness, you really don't need a tremendous amount of self-healing because no one will be hitting you. Plus elves can take on enchantment immunities, and also have immunities to many spells that WF are immune to.

So moving to a PM was a more of a natural fit. I didn't have self-healing before. I have some now. It makes things a little easier from my perspective, but I still use some of the techniques I had to use as a elf AM because of my SP costs.

My move to PM and the self-healing basically solidifies my position that self-healing has its own cost, in one form or another.

If you like playing a WF AM, knock yourself out. I have AMs too. There are things I like and dislike about AM, as there is stuff that I like and dislike about PMs. You just have to know how to work with the strengths, and mitigate the weaknesses.

[danzig138]

you begin enjoying archmage out the gate.

Wait, we're supposed to enjoy the Archmage? That's news to me. I"m pretty sure AM is just lip service to the idea of wizards having a non-PM PrE (and I say that as an AM player, never having played a PM).

[voodoogroves]

Lower level AMs are pretty pointless as well. You stomp content anyway, and you don't get decent SLAs until like 12 ish (right when PM starts to be an option).

Seriously. WF wizard. Don't bother with PM until 12 (or 18). If you know the content, this should be pretty doable.