spell DC inconsistency?

[cru121]

I have this lvl 15 fire savant. Can someone tell me why these two spells have different DCs?

More details about the character:
* Human Sorcerer 15, fire savant, first life
* 32 charisma during screen shot time
* greater evocation focus item
* greater evocation focus feat
* heightened sonic blast shows DC 33
Expected DC: 10+7 lvl +11 cha +2 +2 = 32
http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/vimka

[Purkilius]

Not a 100% sure but I would presume that being a fire savant has something to do with it...

Fire Savant II: You have continued to focus your training on elemental mastery over flame. You gain an additional +2 caster levels when casting fire spells, increase the maximum caster level of these spells by an additional 1.

[soulaeon]

Not a 100% sure but I would presume that being a fire savant has something to do with it...

Fire Savant II: You have continued to focus your training on elemental mastery over flame. You gain an additional +2 caster levels when casting fire spells, increase the maximum caster level of these spells by an additional 1.

Caster levels affect the damage and duration of spells. Spell levels affect the base difficulty check, so that is not it.

[Inouk]

I see nothing to justify the difference. I get something similar on my PM. I have great SF necro and enchant with great SF items for both, but PM line should give me a stacking +1 DC to necro spells, and yet my heightened necro DC and heightened enchant DC are the same. Go figure.

[voodoogroves]

DC with heighten is not calculated like it is in PNP, and is instead based on the highest level of spell you could cast with your caster level. Fire savant gets a bonus to it's CL, so you're a higher level caster in terms of that spell so it has a higher DC.


I tested this and confirmed it a while back (with an Earth spell on an Earth savant)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=322804

[cru121]

Interesting; thanks for the insight. Also worth noting that when I unequipped either Infused Chaosrobe (+1 evoc CL) or any one item of the 3-piece Might of the Abishai set (+1 evoc CL), the DC for Prismatic Spray dropped to 32.

Now, a bonus question. The same character has 4.00% melee doublestrike chance. Even if I remove all gear and have no ship buffs at all. Huh?

[voodoogroves]

Interesting; thanks for the insight. Also worth noting that when I unequipped either Infused Chaosrobe (+1 evoc CL) or any one item of the 3-piece Might of the Abishai set (+1 evoc CL), the DC for Prismatic Spray dropped to 32.

Makes sense as these impact your CL. You're at a clip level. 14 maybe?

Now, a bonus question. The same character has 4.00% melee doublestrike chance. Even if I remove all gear and have no ship buffs at all. Huh?

No idea on the melee stuff. Any spells active?

[Inouk]

Makes sense as these impact your CL. You're at a clip level. 14 maybe?



No idea on the melee stuff. Any spells active?

Yeah, OP says he's 15 sorc, so his +1 caster level puts him to 16 (new spell level for sorc), and taking it off drops him to the same as his other spells. Although... if he has both equipped that should take his CL to 17 and un-equipping just 1 shouldn't matter? Also... his savant should give him +4 caster levels with fire taking his CL to 21, which would cap him at 9th level spells I guess, so removing those items wouldn't affect his DC's at all for fire spells.

[soulaeon]

For the second time, caster levels do NOT raise the spell's level. Caster levels determine the intensity of a spell, not the spell's difficulty check in any way. A heightened spell will always be a level 9 spell at the most, not matter how many caster levels one has.
What's happening here is probably a bug. I noticed the same thing happening with Chain Lightning, when there was no reason for there to be any difference, and the problem went away on its own.

[Jaid314]

For the second time, caster levels do NOT raise the spell's level. Caster levels determine the intensity of a spell, not the spell's difficulty check in any way. A heightened spell will always be a level 9 spell at the most, not matter how many caster levels one has.
What's happening here is probably a bug. I noticed the same thing happening with Chain Lightning, when there was no reason for there to be any difference, and the problem went away on its own.

i've heard some people claim caster level *does* determine how far heighten will take you... ie if you have sufficient caster level that you theoretically should be able to cast level 9 spells, it will heighten up to 9th.

i personally have not even begun to test this, however. i do know that there were fairly reliable reports of penalties to caster level negatively impacting heighten quite a while back.

[voodoogroves]

For the second time, caster levels do NOT raise the spell's level. Caster levels determine the intensity of a spell, not the spell's difficulty check in any way. A heightened spell will always be a level 9 spell at the most, not matter how many caster levels one has.
What's happening here is probably a bug. I noticed the same thing happening with Chain Lightning, when there was no reason for there to be any difference, and the problem went away on its own.

And for the second time, I'm telling you what the engine actually does when you heighten a spell, not what it does in PNP or how you may think it works. See the screenshots above, I can log on to my tester sorc and reproduce it and post those if you need them too.

A level 15 savant who heightens a spell in their element gets the DC as if they had been able to cast 9th level spells. Somehow the DC must be looking at the characters CL in that class to compute the value. Dude above posted a screenshot, I produced the effect over a year ago. Level 15 Earth Savant able to heighten Flesh to Stone shows the extra DC boost.

Bug or unintended? Sure, maybe. They've changed heighten quite a bit. What had us looking into this originally is that caused me to do the test was an air savant heightening an earth spell - and his DC was lowered dramatically. Somehow the DC is based of the CL of the character and not on the highest level spell you can cast in general. Check out the links I posted for that discussion.


The problem went away probably because you out-leveled it. This only shows up in the positive for things where you're at a clip level where it matters - Level 15 for instance.



Totally not trying to be snarky. This is completely reproducible in game though - with the caveat you can only do it for certain spells at certain levels.

[voodoogroves]

i personally have not even begun to test this, however. i do know that there were fairly reliable reports of penalties to caster level negatively impacting heighten quite a while back.

The link I posted above refers to those initial conversation - air savant heightening F2S and their DC dropped by a metric ton. I then tested the other way - earth savant heightening a spell when the extra CL from savant would matter in the positive.

[FranOhmsford]

For the second time, caster levels do NOT raise the spell's level. Caster levels determine the intensity of a spell, not the spell's difficulty check in any way. A heightened spell will always be a level 9 spell at the most, not matter how many caster levels one has.
What's happening here is probably a bug. I noticed the same thing happening with Chain Lightning, when there was no reason for there to be any difference, and the problem went away on its own.

OP is a 15 Sorc!

He CANNOT cast Lvl 9 Spells!

Heighten takes him to Lvl 7 {The Highest spell lvl he can cast}.

As a Fire Savant this gets upped to Lvl 8.

So his Delayed Blast Fireball has 1 extra DC when Heightened.

[Jaid314]

OP is a 15 Sorc!

He CANNOT cast Lvl 9 Spells!

Heighten takes him to Lvl 7 {The Highest spell lvl he can cast}.

As a Fire Savant this gets upped to Lvl 8.

So his Delayed Blast Fireball has 1 extra DC when Heightened.

[edit: removed what was probably not the most polite way of saying something]

this is not pen and paper D&D. there is no DM to take confusing wording and make it work like it's supposed to.

so, here is what voodoogrooves is saying is probably happening:

if the algorithm programmed into the computer is to take the caster level, divide by 2, and round either up or down (depending on class) with a maximum of 9 and a minimum of 1, the computer will not realize anything screwy is happening if you have a caster level of 19 with earth spells and a caster level of 13 with air spells, but a caster level of 15 with everything else. if the code tells it to take the caster level and divide by 2, rounding down since it's a sorcerer, to determine what the maximum level it can heighten to is, it will do that. it won't stop and say "wait, this character is a level 15 sorcerer and can only cast level 8 spells" because it is just a computer. it only knows what it was told, and nobody told it to care what level in what class the caster has, they only told it to care about what the caster level for the spell being cast is.

now, i personally don't have any sorcerers i can try this with at the moment (i have one, but it was just for goofing around at low levels and i haven't put heighten on it yet). i can't tell you if this is or is not what is happening in game.

but voodoogrooves *has* done testing on it, and is telling you that, based on the test results, this is what's happening.

the game doesn't give a **** what the player's handbook says about heighten spell. it doesn't care what the DDO compendium says, nor even what the DDO wiki says, either. it cares about what is written in the code. and if the code is written in such a way that caster level is the determining factor for heighten spell, then that is what will happen, regardless of what anyone or anything else says *should* happen.

[voodoogroves]

Yes. Tested, verified and reproduced.

I did so after Air Savants posted their F2S DC was decreased dramatically when they turned on heighten. I had a junk farming level 15 sorc I respec'd and took F2S on, and heightened it - and I got the higher DC than I would have normally expected is it heightened to an "effective" level 9 spell.

I doubt I'll be on today, maybe tomorrow - but I can post screen shots (though they are redundant to the OPs - my testing validates exactly what he's seeing).

I was interested specifically in F2S, as since it raises your caster level it also helps with spell penetration, giving an interesting option for CC.

[FranOhmsford]

[edit: removed what was probably not the most polite way of saying something]

this is not pen and paper D&D. there is no DM to take confusing wording and make it work like it's supposed to.

so, here is what voodoogrooves is saying is probably happening:

if the algorithm programmed into the computer is to take the caster level, divide by 2, and round either up or down (depending on class) with a maximum of 9 and a minimum of 1, the computer will not realize anything screwy is happening if you have a caster level of 19 with earth spells and a caster level of 13 with air spells, but a caster level of 15 with everything else. if the code tells it to take the caster level and divide by 2, rounding down since it's a sorcerer, to determine what the maximum level it can heighten to is, it will do that. it won't stop and say "wait, this character is a level 15 sorcerer and can only cast level 8 spells" because it is just a computer. it only knows what it was told, and nobody told it to care what level in what class the caster has, they only told it to care about what the caster level for the spell being cast is.

now, i personally don't have any sorcerers i can try this with at the moment (i have one, but it was just for goofing around at low levels and i haven't put heighten on it yet). i can't tell you if this is or is not what is happening in game.

but voodoogrooves *has* done testing on it, and is telling you that, based on the test results, this is what's happening.

the game doesn't give a **** what the player's handbook says about heighten spell. it doesn't care what the DDO compendium says, nor even what the DDO wiki says, either. it cares about what is written in the code. and if the code is written in such a way that caster level is the determining factor for heighten spell, then that is what will happen, regardless of what anyone or anything else says *should* happen.

I'm thinking perhaps you quoted the wrong post - As I thought I was actually agreeing with Voodoo {or at least putting it into words that the other poster could understand}.

Oh - And if Heighten did give a 15 sorc 9th level DC in his favoured element then the OP's Delayed Blast Fireball would be 2 {Two} higher than his Prismatic Spray {Not 1 which it is}.
As Sorcs get 9th Lvl Spells at lvl 18, 8th at Lvl 16 - And the OP is Lvl 15!

[voodoogroves]

I'm thinking perhaps you quoted the wrong post - As I thought I was actually agreeing with Voodoo {or at least putting it into words that the other poster could understand}.

Oh - And if Heighten did give a 15 sorc 9th level DC in his favoured element then the OP's Delayed Blast Fireball would be 2 {Two} higher than his Prismatic Spray {Not 1 which it is}.
As Sorcs get 9th Lvl Spells at lvl 18, 8th at Lvl 16 - And the OP is Lvl 15!

Only if that was the only CL boost he had.

Interesting; thanks for the insight. Also worth noting that when I unequipped either Infused Chaosrobe (+1 evoc CL) or any one item of the 3-piece Might of the Abishai set (+1 evoc CL), the DC for Prismatic Spray dropped to 32.

And, he doesn't. This is his post a few down from the OP where he talks about the item removal and the drop of an additional DC to prismatic.

[FranOhmsford]

Only if that was the only CL boost he had.



And, he doesn't. This is his post a few down from the OP where he talks about the item removal and the drop of an additional DC to prismatic.

That +1 Evoc Caster Level would also apply to Delayed Blast Fireball would it not?

If Max Caster Level no matter what is 9 then you're right - Again I was only trying to put what you were saying into something easier for the other poster to understand.

Basically that the OP is Lvl 15 - i.e. Doesn't have Lvl 9 Spells in the first place!

[voodoogroves]

That +1 Evoc Caster Level would also apply to Delayed Blast Fireball would it not?

If Max Caster Level no matter what is 9 then you're right - Again I was only trying to put what you were saying into something easier for the other poster to understand.

Yes, it seems to be limited to that cap.

Basically that the OP is Lvl 15 - i.e. Doesn't have Lvl 9 Spells in the first place!

Correct, but does show a nifty little DC boost when heighten is on.


Incidentally you should be able to test this easily with a vet status 2 character. Sorc 7, Savant 1 heightening a level 3 spell should give you the DC of a 4th level spell. Actually, I've not tested that - I would expect it to give the phantom boost. If you put on an abishai set and the spell was evocation, I'd expect to see a DC of a 5th level spell (7 + 2 savant + 1 abishai = 10).


I've not tested this with wizard or any other class; only tested this w/ a Sorc 15.

[shadereaper33]

So, with all the argument of CL affecting spell DC, I gotta ask a question. Shouldn't DBF (a fire evocation spell) be affected exactly the same as prismatic spray (a fire based evocation spell)?