Bear Form Druid

[robinrochester360]

I built my Druid with the intention of going straight bear to the end, but am having issues with it. Mainly, attack speed and damage. I am currently 13 druid 2 monk. Not sure on my base stats but my str, con and wis are all at least 23. I am sitting just under 400 hps. I have PL Ranger, Monk, Sorc. I want to go sword and board for the doublestrike but hate losing the evasion and the sure speed of attacks not in bear form. Losing my stance sucks to.

I was hoping the mass damage and survivability of being a bear would make up for it. Sometimes it's fine,e specially soloing. However when i get in an experienced TR group I feel like a gimp just trying to keep up. most everything I read on here are just wolf form, some elemental form. I really don't want wolf form... I don't know why, maybe next life. Gear shouldn't be an issue, if I need to find something specific.

So is bear form just the absolute worst (:P) and should I give it up, or is there something I can do?

I can't remember exact feats but I think it is: PL Monk, IC: Bludgeoning, Deflect Arrows (maybe), Toughness, Wild Form attack or whatever it's called. Sorry i know I am not providing everything I need to... lol

I'd rather not go more monk levels. i already have a 24 monk and don't want to really be just another monk form.
Thanks guys!

[drsmooth]

Bear form is severely underpowered. The super slow attack animations for base attacks, and special attacks is rough. It is supposed to be a tank-ish form, but suffers greatly from doing miniscule damage.
Despite this, I am still slowly leveling one because bears are kewl.

[unbongwah]

Mainly, attack speed and damage.

Yeah, compared to wolfs, bears feel like they're stuck in molasses. Also, some of their most useful abilities are proc-on-hit (e.g., Essence of the Turtle, Wild Healing); but IMHO the proc chance is way too low compared to, say, Essence of the Shrike for wolves (+20 temp SPs on every crit, which should be 20% of atks once you have Winter Wolf+IC:Blunt).

I want to go sword and board for the doublestrike but hate losing the evasion and the sure speed of attacks not in bear form. Losing my stance sucks to.

Good news: you won't lose Evasion from being uncentered as long as you're still in light armor (or robes). Bad news: you do lose stances, monk strikes, etc.

I'm currently leveling a STR-based druid 13 / ftr 6 / wiz 1 dire bear tank (NW II / SD I); I've had fun, but I think my concept is fundamentally flawed. I was hoping the DPS, PRR, and hate bonuses from SD I would compensate for the low-ish base DPS of bears. But I suspect a pure WIS-based druid would've been more effective, because I think taking advantage of your DPS & CC (Tremor, Earthquake) spells is just as if not more important as melee DPS. Basically, I sacrificed what druids are already good at (offensive casting) to beef up what bears are bad at (melee DPS) and didn't get enough for my troubles. I also think part of being a good druid is simply knowing when to shift forms and adopt different tactics; I got a little too wedded to the idea of "all bear all the time!"

FWIW, this is the pure druid bear tank build I think I ought to have gone with:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
(20 Druid) 
Hit Points: 322
Spell Points: 1546 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity             8                    10
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               18                    29
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

Level 1 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Bear


Level 3 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Druid)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 5 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Wolf


Level 6 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 7 (Druid)
Enhancement: Druid Aggravate I
Enhancement: Druid Aggravate II
Enhancement: Druid Beastial Nature I
Enhancement: Druid Essence of the Turtle I
Enhancement: Druid Nature's Warrior I
Enhancement: Druid Reaving Roar
Enhancement: Druid Vengeful Hunter I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Druid Waxing Sun I
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of the Sun I
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of the Sun II
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Life I
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Life II
Enhancement: Druid Wisdom I
Enhancement: Druid Toughness I


Level 8 (Druid)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Dire Bear


Level 9 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Natural Fighting


Level 10 (Druid)


Level 11 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Winter Wolf


Level 12 (Druid)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Fire Elemental
Enhancement: Druid Beastial Nature II
Enhancement: Druid Essence of the Turtle II
Enhancement: Druid Nature's Warrior II
Enhancement: Druid Vengeful Hunter II
Enhancement: Druid Wild Healing
Enhancement: Druid Waxing Sun II
Enhancement: Druid Zenith of the Sun I
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of the Sun III
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Life III
Enhancement: Druid Wisdom II


Level 14 (Druid)


Level 15 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Druid)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Water Elemental


Level 18 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 19 (Druid)


Level 20 (Druid)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Druid Natural Adept
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Druid Waxing Life I
Enhancement: Druid Zenith of the Sun II
Enhancement: Druid Zenith of Life I
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of the Sun IV
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Life IV
Enhancement: Druid Wisdom III
Enhancement: Druid Toughness II

Epic feats: Natural Fighting (x2)

[thegreatneil]

@unbongwah

NW II / SD I - this has an issue, as in animal form you are unarmed, so you do not get the benifits from holding a shield.

AS for bear form, it needs some love really. When i tried this i used Cleave, Great cleave and tremor. Still was awful. The only good thing about it was the 30% doublestrike, as the cleaves can doublestrike. But i Lr ed my guy into a wis based 16/4 fighter. THF full line aoe cleaving, fire form in an earthquake.

[smeggy1384]

@unbongwah

NW II / SD I - this has an issue, as in animal form you are unarmed, so you do not get the benifits from holding a shield.

More like you are unable to shield block (without leaving form anyway), you do get the AC, phys resist and the bonus to double strike from shield mastery and improved shield mastery(and these stack with natural fighting). It also keeps various passive effects on the shield like fort or acid guard.

[unbongwah]

NW II / SD I - this has an issue, as in animal form you are unarmed, so you do not get the benifits from holding a shield.

As smeggy points out, you still get the AC, PRR, and doublestrike (w/Shield Mastery feats), as well as any passive bonuses. However, you do not get the boost to Intim threat, AFAICT. Don't yet know how bear form and SD stance interact: currently druid 13 / ftr 4 / wiz 1.

[robinrochester360]

I'm in the same boat Ung. I figured with the right background and enough feats I could make the one good bear... however I am not smarter ot stronger than the average bear. In fact Bear form just makes everything an issue. It's too big for most dungeons, slow going through traps (curses if I don't cast a spell and die in them way too often), and as you said seems mired in molasses in general. Solo, it's 'fine' if not ideal. Still so many of druid abilities could be wicked cool if they just interacted better, or as intended. Evan Water Elemental form is rough. I think the abilities that require forms should be SLA's and come with.

Last night I took 16 and am now 14 druid 2 monk. I added to my str to bring it to an even 30. I fear I have locked myself into a form I hope will be buffed at some point and then work fine. By then I will probably be tr'ed though...

My goal is to get the level 16 Wall of Wood (ha!) and the Calomel Scimitar (or make a GS one). I was running GH last night and can solo them on hard pretty easily, if not quickly in bear form. I am hoping the right weapon will help a lot. I'm trying to think of a decent named scimitar to try to farm. I really, really wish that the ingredients in ES challenges weren't BTC. My monk, rogue and PM are sitting on hundreds of ingredients they will never use while the characters I would are stuck because I can't get to ES or find a group to run challenges at this level, and by the time I can I will have found better than random gear. But that's another thread....

[thegreatneil]

As smeggy points out, you still get the AC, PRR, and doublestrike (w/Shield Mastery feats), as well as any passive bonuses. However, you do not get the boost to Intim threat, AFAICT. Don't yet know how bear form and SD stance interact: currently druid 13 / ftr 4 / wiz 1.

I am talking about the defensive stance.
You will get 10prr for the defensive stance, you will Not get the other 10 for holding a shield in bear form. As you stated you do not get the 25% boost to threat.
Becasue you are not "holding a weapon and a shield" in bear form.
You will get 11prr for NW 1 & 2. You will get the prr for anything such as SM and ISM.
Rising fury works in def stance, but Bestial Nature does not work.
It is a reckless effect, like rage.

[FestusHood]

I'm playing around with a dwarven bear druid myself, and have a couple of questions.

According to the wiki, bear form does bludgeon and slashing damage. Wolf does bludgeon and piercing. So why do all the builds suggest taking IC/bludgeon? Is it so you can use it with both animal forms. I ask because i was thinking of taking IC/slash instead, so that it would work in the bear form but also if i want to melee in human form, with a real weapon.

Has anyone tried meleeing with a bear without using any of the standard attacks at all? It seems like you might be able to chain trip,sunder,cleave,great cleave, and the spell bear attacks constantly and avoid the slow standard attack routine. Anyone have any insight about this?

[thegreatneil]

More like you are unable to shield block (without leaving form anyway), you do get the AC, phys resist and the bonus to double strike from shield mastery and improved shield mastery(and these stack with natural fighting). It also keeps various passive effects on the shield like fort or acid guard.

For shield blocking you can, with a catch. You have to face the mob.
Front: full shield blocking.
Sdie & back: no shiled blocking DR at all.

[FestusHood]

For shield blocking you can, with a catch. You have to face the mob.
Front: full shield blocking.
Sdie & back: no shiled blocking DR at all.

Bears got big flanks.

[thegreatneil]

I'm playing around with a dwarven bear druid myself, and have a couple of questions.

According to the wiki, bear form does bludgeon and slashing damage. Wolf does bludgeon and piercing. So why do all the builds suggest taking IC/bludgeon? Is it so you can use it with both animal forms. I ask because i was thinking of taking IC/slash instead, so that it would work in the bear form but also if i want to melee in human form, with a real weapon.

Has anyone tried meleeing with a bear without using any of the standard attacks at all? It seems like you might be able to chain trip,sunder,cleave,great cleave, and the spell bear attacks constantly and avoid the slow standard attack routine. Anyone have any insight about this?

Edit: Just thought of another question. Do double strikes proc on cleaves?

bear and wolf form are "unarmed". This is bludgeon damage. i have hear of (but never tried) of monks using kakame/qstaffs and stun fist in animal fom.

as the cleaves can doublestrike.

Yes, i quoted myself from five posts above yours.

[thegreatneil]

Bears got big flanks.

Does this happen on all classes? i dont shield block with my butt alot, so im not sure.
Hmm gonna go test this.
Edit: nope may paladin can't block with his butt either, only from the front.

[FestusHood]

bear and wolf form are "unarmed". This is bludgeon damage. i have hear of (but never tried) of monks using kakame/qstaffs and stun fist in animal fom.

I know that when monks or other humanoid characters fight unarmed that it is bludgeon damage. But any class mixed with a monk level also switches to the unarmed style of the monk. I.E. rapid, chop socky roundhouse kick style. I don't know from experience but i'm guessing this doesn't apply to animal form druids. If it did then splashing one level of monk would solve the attack speed problem. (and look pretty hilarious)

The wiki says that the bear does bludgeon and slash damage. So even though conventional unarmed fighting is all bludgeon, i was thinking that animal form fighting might be exceptional as regards improved critical since it doesn't (i'm assuming) act like other classes regarding adopting the unarmed monk fighting style when splashing monk. Probably an easy way to see what kind of damage it is outputting would be to test it against zombies, skellis, and spiders, since they all have dr based on the type of the weapon. A bear should do normal damage to both zombies and skellies, but not spiders, and a wolf should do normal damage to spiders and skellis, but not zombies.

Another question: Is the flaming scimitar from the spell affected by IC/slash? Again on the wiki it says that it does fire damage rather than slashing damage. But it's a scimitar. I'm curious about how this works too.

Yes, i quoted myself from five posts above yours.

Sorry i didn't see that until after i posted my question.

[FestusHood]

Does this happen on all classes? i dont shield block with my butt alot, so im not sure.
Hmm gonna go test this.
Edit: nope may paladin can't block with his butt either, only from the front.

This was a joke. But to explain, the point wasn't that you were blocking with your butt, but that bears have a lot of butt to hide behind a shield.

[Carpone]

Bears got big flanks.

And I can not lie.
You other mobs can't deny.

[robinrochester360]

Class profiling that bear druids have big flanks! Either way bear size is a big (get it? lol) issue. It's okay in outside quests like say Stormcleave but in the hundred inside quests the size just gets in the way. I would mind seeing them ditch bear altogether and go lion, panther or even tiger. The animations, models and whatchacallits are already in game. Heck, why not go scorpion or spider. It would fit in with Eberron theme. Alas, for now we just have to find a way to make our second tier form workable.

Speaking of which at level 16 I have the lvl 15 versions of Swailing Blade and Wall Of Wood. I can get up to a 56 AC with a base d12+.5 damage. With haste and a melee alacrity item I seem to be doing much much better.

[smeggy1384]

For shield blocking you can, with a catch. You have to face the mob.
Front: full shield blocking.
Sdie & back: no shiled blocking DR at all.

Hm weird.. I've tried blocking in wolf form and it just kept on attacking. Is bear form really able to block?

[thegreatneil]

Hm weird.. I've tried blocking in wolf form and it just kept on attacking. Is bear form really able to block?

Nope, not at all, im just making it up as i go!

[Daemoneyes]

bear and wolf form are "unarmed". This is bludgeon damage. i have hear of (but never tried) of monks using kakame/qstaffs and stun fist in animal fom.

I use Kama / Qstaffs / Wraps in Wolf and Bear form
they work with Stunning Fist and all other Monk attacks

Kama is dps option, take one with good effects in mainhand and a Seeker of Vertigo in offhand, in wolf this rocks bear not so much

Wraps/Qstaffs is cc
best i found telekinetic of stunning but its not long effective later switch to Vampiric Stonedust or anything of Stunning.